Giving up on the narrow gate, so going to try the EEAFM rout

[Shoeburymike]

Having tried to get my 25 year old Russian dependant stepson into the UK to live with me and his mother via the UK Immigration Laws for the last three years, I am, at age 70, contemplating emigrating to an EU state with my wife, and bringing the him into the EEA on a Family Permit to live with us.
My difficulty here is identifying the most benign route for this exercise.
For ease of access to my huge UK family(34 descendants in three downstream generations at the last count) I guess France, Belgium, Netherlands would be best, but this, of course is not the whole story. I would need to take into account housing and living costs(hotter is usually cheaper), and the attitude of each state to the rules, particularly in getting the lad living with us without too much difficulty. Ultimately, after fulfilling the normal requirements, I would like to return home, but knowing the way in which the UK in particular eagerly embraces European regulations, and then twists them out of recognition in courts etc., I would need to take into account that I may have to stay away until I fall off the twig!
I happen to be of the opinion that the UK Government is continuously and continually breaking ECHR 8 and 14 on a daily basis, so not much optimism here.
I guess I would be considered as 'self-sufficient' as I have pensions which could support me, my wife, and our son more or less anywhere in Europe.
For all people, the older you get, the more you need to take out hassle which can easily convert into a medical problem(bureaucrats take notice), and I would really like to select a route that gives me the best chance of surviving the normal frustrations that occur when dealing with the likes of B&IC ECOs etc..Is there anybody out there who may be able to give me some pearls of wisdom, and, literally, point me in the right direction?

[Ben]

Welcome to the forum, Mike!

Have you considered Ireland? Plenty of advantages over France, Belgium, and the Netherlands.

Also, you should note that to return to the UK using Singh you should have been pursuing an "economic activity" in another Member State. The UK interprets this as having been employed or self-employed.

[Wanderer]

But isn't too old at 25 even if dependent?

[Ben]

But isn't too old at 25 even if dependent?

Yes, Article 2 of the Directive says that for dependant descendants of the Union citizen, or of the spouse of the Union citizen, the age limit is 21.

However, there is provision in Article 3 for any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, who, in the country from which they have come, are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen.

Mike said that his stepson is dependant on him, in the country from which he (will have) come.

[DFDS.]

But isn't too old at 25 even if dependent?

Member of house hold can apply if dependent doesn't! there are many similar cases. Mike has to study the Directive and exhaust it very well, if his step son can get anywhere in schengen, am sure he can come back through Singh.

[DFDS.]

Welcome to the forum, Mike!

Have you considered Ireland? Plenty of advantages over France, Belgium, and the Netherlands.

Also, you should note that to return to the UK using Singh you should have been pursuing an "economic activity" in another Member State. The UK interprets this as having been employed or self-employed.

Mike being a Brit, Ireland would be more convenient, but not for his Russian stepson! baring in mind his got problem fixing him with UK, am sure it might as well be the same story with Ireland. Any Other EU member state would work for him much better.

[Wanderer]

Welcome to the forum, Mike!

Have you considered Ireland? Plenty of advantages over France, Belgium, and the Netherlands.

Also, you should note that to return to the UK using Singh you should have been pursuing an "economic activity" in another Member State. The UK interprets this as having been employed or self-employed.

Mike being a Brit, Ireland would be more convenient, but not for his Russian stepson! baring in mind his got problem fixing him with UK, am sure it might as well be the same story with Ireland. Any Other EU member state would work for him much better.

Baltic States! They are mostly Russian anyway!

[Ben]

Mike being a Brit, Ireland would be more convenient, but not for his Russian stepson!

I was referring to logistics.

baring in mind his got problem fixing him with UK, am sure it might as well be the same story with Ireland.

No, because Mike is British and not Irish (I assume).

Any Other EU member state would work for him much better.

Well, I disagree. I think that the CTA between the UK and Ireland is a great advantage in this situation, as would be the language and culture similarities, for someone moving, for a short period only, in order to engage in economic activity.

[DFDS.]

Residency under Singh is not so common i assume, i would like to know if its mandatory for the OP on his return to appear with his stepson or can the stepson join him latter? 2 Is it a must that he must have been residing with his stepson in another EU member state, since the stepson now falls under article 3(2)?

Thanks.

[Ben]

Residency under Singh is not so common i assume, i would like to know if its mandatory for the OP on his return to appear with his stepson or can the stepson join him latter?

Either. "In the company of" or "to join".

2 Is it a must that he must have been residing with his stepson in another EU member state, since the stepson now falls under article 3(2)?

No, we had clarification thanks to Metock.

[Shoeburymike]

Benifa, I have sort of considered Ireland, and also especially as my father was actually born there. The fact of the matter is that he was born in a British Army Military garrison in Limerick in 1905 when Ireland was sort of part of the UK!! It is difficult to find the records, though!
As for dependancy, my stepson has a skin condition called atopic dermatitis which is very easily and cheaply treatable, but does affect his ability to work at times and therefore he needs our financial support. When I tried to bring him in under Immigration Rules 318(f) as a dependant relative, there was NO problem with the financial dependancy with the ECO, but the ECO was NOT convinced that the lad was doing this through choice, not necessity. Despite never seeing him, this was supported by Judge Lawrence at the AIT in a 'two part' appeal last year. It was a 'two part' appeal because the judge did not think my wife's English was good enough to answer questions from the HO barrister! She was born Russian, but is now a UK Citizen! The appeal was adjourned for 2 months until we could get a Russian interpreter! After the final determination, in which Judge Lawrence decided that we(his mother and I) had NOT been truthful, I decided that the UK Immigration route was a waste of time and money! I am still smarting from the injustice of the decisions and upon what it was based, as we had never spoken or written an untrue word! My wife just thinks that the politics of the time had an influence(Georgia/Russian conflict!).
We are looking at another option, as my sister is the widow of an Italian gentleman and she lives in Rome where she runs an hotel. It may be that we move in with her for a year or so and try to bring the lad in to stay with us in Rome and get him a residence permit there. As for doing 'worthwhile work', I am sure we can get my wife working to satisfy that need, even if it is working for my sister!! If I have to stay in Rome until I die that won't be too bad a thing, will it? I am 'self-sufficient' with my pensions remember!

[Obie]

2 Is it a must that he must have been residing with his stepson in another EU member state, since the stepson now falls under article 3(2)?

No, we had clarification thanks to Metock.

Ben i thought in order to benefit from Singh, the dependent should have been residing in the EEA state in which the British national was exercising his/her treaty rights.

Correct me if i am wrong, are you saying even if the dependent hadn't exercise treaty rights with the EEA national, he/she can still benefit from Singh, provided the EEA nation had been engaged in economic activity.

Example, should my sister choose to apply Singh for our dependent mother who wasn't residing with use in Ireland on her return to the UK, are you saying it is perfectly within her rights.

My previous understanding is it wasn't.

Also Denmark changed their law following Metock to make provision for family member of Danes who had been exercising treaty rights as Student or self-sufficient. I am unsure which clause compelled them to make such changes

[Ben]

Benifa, I have sort of considered Ireland, and also especially as my father was actually born there.

Hang on - that means you're Irish too!

If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth.

Under the provisions of EU Directive 2004/38/EC, you have been exercising Treaty rights in the UK and are now an Irish citizen with the right of Permanent Residence in the UK.

If you can gather the required documents to prove that you are the son of a person born in Ireland, apply for a passport at the Embassy of Ireland in London.

Your stepson then applies for an EEA Family Permit at the British embassy in Moscow, since he is a person described in Article 2(2)(c) of the Directive:

the direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of the
spouse or partner as defined in point

Once in the UK, your stepson applies for the Residence Card of the family member of a Union citizen, to which he is entitled, using form EEA2.

Your only hurdle Mike, as far as I can see, may be proving to the Irish authorities that you are the son of a person born in Ireland.

[DFDS.]

Residency under Singh is not so common i assume, i would like to know if its mandatory for the OP on his return to appear with his stepson or can the stepson join him latter?

Either. "In the company of" or "to join".

2 Is it a must that he must have been residing with his stepson in another EU member state, since the stepson now falls under article 3(2)?

No, we had clarification thanks to Metock.

I can agree with you if it was another case other than Singh. Metock has been considered with avery narrow interpretation by both HO and AIT. Is metock compatible with Singh?

[Ben]

2 Is it a must that he must have been residing with his stepson in another EU member state, since the stepson now falls under article 3(2)?

No, we had clarification thanks to Metock.

Sorry, I should have been clearer.

Metock clarified that the right of a non-EU family member of a Union citizen, who accompanies or joins that citizen, cannot be made conditional on prior lawful residence in another Member State.

Singh however, dealt with the rights of non-EU family members who have resided with the Union citizen *specifically* in the territory of another Member State.

However, Singh conditions aside, it is correct that a non-EU family member, who falls under the 3(2) category, does not have to have been resident in another Member State (as per Metock).

[DFDS.]

Thanks for the clarification Benifa, am i right to add a phrase " LAWFULLY RESIDENT", in your 3rd paragraph?

[Shoeburymike]

Well I must say, benifa, you have given me something to think about. I have sent off an enquiry to the General Registrar in Dublin who look as if they hold all the BM&D records back to around 1864. They are NOT computerised, but seem willing to provide certificates at what looks to be rather modest prices!!
I have also made a general enquiry at the Irish Embassy in London.
I'll keep the forum informed of what transpires!
I do love Rome, but I would rather not have to live there if it is at all possible to avoid it!

[Wanderer]

Well I must say, benifa, you have given me something to think about. I have sent off an enquiry to the General Registrar in Dublin who look as if they hold all the BM&D records back to around 1864. They are NOT computerised, but seem willing to provide certificates at what looks to be rather modest prices!!
I have also made a general enquiry at the Irish Embassy in London.
I'll keep the forum informed of what transpires!
I do love Rome, but I would rather not have to live there if it is at all possible to avoid it! :roll:

My Grandfather was Irish - but no records exist at all of him apart from UK Census! So it's not so easy sometimes, especially considering most of his generation are now dead and the ones that aren't can't just remember 'that he was from Ireland - no idea where...'

I just gave up.

[Shoeburymike]

Sorry Wanderer that you gave up!
I too, have UK census information, and it specifies the town and county of birth of all the family. Thus, when I did a search for an Alfred Patterson born in the city of Limerick in the County of Limerick in 1905, I only got one, so I have assumed it was him. Based on this I have applied for a copy of my father's birth certificate through the Irish Registrars website. I have not yet had a reply, but if it all works out I will post it here!