Travel to Germany (UK Residence Card), need visa?

[DM18]

I am German and my boyfriend of 7 years is South African. He has a EEA Family Card in his passport til 2013. We are NOT married and both live in the UK.

If we want to travel to Germany together, will he need a Schengen visa or not? The reason I'm asking is because we would obviously not be able to provide a marriage certificate at passport control. Would that be an issue?

Hope anyone can help and/or had experience with a similar situation.

Thanx!

[86ti]

I think a visa is required because a boy friend is not a direct family member like a spouse or a registered partner.

[DM18]

He does have a EEA Family Permit Residence Card though (exactly the one as shown on the German embassy website): http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/l ... =Daten.pdf

[86ti]

Have you read the following link?
http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/l ... seite.html

[DM18]

Yes, I have, but it doesn't really help.
They don't state anything about people that live together, but aren't married. And one is EU member and other has EEA Family member residence card.
It's all just so confusing

[86ti]

The web page clearly states

You DO NOT need a visa for short stays in Germany if you are:

* ...
* a spouse or child of an EU/EEA/EFTA national if you hold a British "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" and only if you are travelling together with the EU/EEA/EFTA national. For all other family members please contact the Embassy.
* ...

[DM18]

Got reply from embassy now as well saying that he should apply for a Schengen visa.

Just though that there might be a way that he wouldnt need a visa as he has the Residence Card and travels with me (his EEA family).

Well, this sucks

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Does he have an EEA Family Card, or does he have a Residence Card issued by the UK. The first is a kind of 6 month visa. The later is a 5 year residence card.

And let me just confirm - he applied for the document with you as his family member?

Note also you are entering your home country with him, which can complicate things.

[86ti]

The OP made it already clear that it would be a Residence Card. A boy friend would certainly be counted as an extended family member (the CoA would clearly state that) even if the UK issues the same residence documentation in such cases.

I would recommend to sign up with and post another message on
http://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/ ... i?board=EU

Some people answering there appear to be working for the German border police or have close contacts.

[ca.funke]

...He has a EEA Family Card in his passport til 2013. We are NOT married and both live in the UK...

I think the key question is how he obtained that card? Does he have a (real i.e. not "girlfried") family-member, through whom he applied for that card?

If so he would only be allowed to travel visa-free, when going together with that person.

Travelling alone (and the girlfriend doesn´t qualify here) he would need a visa.

[DM18]

He has a 5 year residence card and he obtained it because he is together with me (now for 7 years).
He does not have any additional EU family members, relatives, etc.

[Rozen]

He has a 5 year residence card and he obtained it because he is together with me (now for 7 years).

Then Schengen Visa it is!

[Obie]

Note also you are entering your home country with him, which can complicate things.

It should not complicate things as far as the law is concerned, provided the German national has been exercising treaty rights in another member state prior to returning home and has evidence to attest to this.

Germany is one of few countries who are blatanty ignoring the provision set out in Artice 3 (2) of the directive. They have clearly ignored their requirement to facilitate the entry and residence of family members who are not covered in Article 2, but who meets other requirements.

Their behaviour sucks, and i think they should be brought to book.

OP, you are supposed to be covered if you can prove the existence of a durable relationship and membership of the same household or evidence of a defacto, marrriage like relationship.

Due to countries like German and Spain etc, deliberately ignoring and violating the rules, i am confident they will not allow you in.

You can try it, but be prepared for a tough fight.

[ca.funke]

Hi DM18,

I was wrong in my first post, as I forgot "durable relationships".

If your boyfriend got the residence-card as per your post, and it reads "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National", then you can go without a visa.

In that case, everything as per >>this<< and specifically for Germans going to Germany >>this<< post would apply.

Legal Grounds:

>>2004/38/EC<<, Article 3 (2)(b)

Article 3

Beneficiaries

1. (...)

2. Without prejudice to any right to free movement and
residence the persons concerned may have in their own right,
the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national
legislation, facilitate entry and residence for the following
persons:
(a) (...)
(b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable
relationship, duly attested.

>>2004/38/EC<<, Article 10

Article 10

Issue of residence cards

1. The right of residence of family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be
evidenced by the issuing of a document called ‘Residence card
of a family member of a Union citizen’ no later than six
months from the date on which they submit the application. A
certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued
immediately.

2. For the residence card to be issued, Member States shall
require presentation of the following documents:
(a) a valid passport;
(b) (...)
(c) the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registra-
tion system, any other proof of residence in the host
Member State of the Union citizen whom they are accom-
panying or joining;
(d) (...)
(e) (...)
(f) in cases falling under Article 3(2)(b), proof of the existence
of a durable relationship with the Union citizen.

You can find the same law in >>German<< here.

If you plan to travel this way it might become a bit of a bumpy ride, as the guy at the border-checkpoint may not be aware of this. Worst-case scenario: You have to explain yourself in a side room. Just to make sure, take a copy of above laws.

By the way: Strictly speaking you would have to go without a visa, as the embassy is not allowed to issue visas to people who don´t need one.

Happy travelling, viel Spass daheim

[86ti]

I keep wondering why the people here think that the OP can benefit from visa free travel. Article 5 is clearly about family members only defined as in Article 2. The boyfriend is quite obviously neither a spouse nor a registered partner. The latter would also need to be recognized in national law and be equivalent (very crucial point) to marriage.

I can only strongly recommend to get into contact with the German 'Bunderspolizei' before embarking on an adventure that may end up all in tears.

[ca.funke]

Hi 86ti,

I would assume so, because of 3(2)(b) (see my previous post).

Not a good idea?

Rgds, Christian

[86ti]

I would assume so, because of 3(2)(b) (see my previous post).

Not a good idea?

My argument obviously hinges on the explicit reference to 'family members' in Article 5. Sure, Article 10 also allows the issuance of residence cards to persons in a durable relationship which I would think also confers the same rights but only with respect to the host member state. In practive, I wonder how you would proof such a relationship to a border guard. Possibly also, of course, that they wouldn't ask for it..

[Rozen]

I keep wondering why the people here think that the OP can benefit from visa free travel. Article 5 is clearly about family members only defined as in Article 2. The boyfriend is quite obviously neither a spouse nor a registered partner. The latter would also need to be recognized in national law and be equivalent (very crucial point) to marriage.

I can only strongly recommend to get into contact with the German 'Bunderspolizei' before embarking on an adventure that may end up all in tears.

Completely agree!

[Rozen]

By the way: Strictly speaking you would have to go without a visa, as the embassy is not allowed to issue visas to people who don´t need one.

OP herself has said that she contacted the embassy and they have told her that he must apply for a schengen visa! So they would obviously issue him with one, should he choose to do so.

[Wanderer]

Germany is one of few countries who are blatanty ignoring the provision set out in Artice 3 (2) of the directive. They have clearly ignored their requirement to facilitate the entry and residence of family members who are not covered in Article 2, but who meets other requirements.

Their behaviour sucks, and i think they should be brought to book.

It's because catering for unmarried partners is not in their local immigration law, it's their law, they are under no obligation to change it for EEA directives.

The only onus on them is not to put their own citizens in a worse position than EEA ones, which they do by not incorporating that part of the directive. The alternative is for Germany to rewrite their local law, which is a whole new can of worms leading to calls for every state to totally harmonise their local laws with each other, just not going to happen in our lifetimes.

I have no problem with it, and I am one who would benefit from it if it was changed, being in a de facto relationship with a non-EU partner wanting to live in Germany....

[ca.funke]

OP herself has said that she contacted the embassy...

While I unfortunately don't know for sure if the OP's boyfriend would need a visa now (See the confusing wording in the directive, just another thing in it that remains unclear), contacting the embassy is one of the worst ideas ever to get reliable information.

These folks mostly have no clue whatsoever. See for example the different answers given in my little enquiry.

That wouldn't be so bad, if at least the different information by the embassies would correspond to how the border-guards of their respective country handle it on the ground. However, even that isn't the case.

It's still one big mess, and no-one in Brussels is cleaning it up. (I guess they're the only folks who could)

[DM18]

The thing is that my boyfriend only got the UK Residence Card because we could proof that we had cohabited for more than 4 years (when he applied for it back in 2007). And that "cohabit" means living LIKE a married couple. (Was initially for same sex couples only).
We have a paper from a South African lawyer saying that we cohabit (I stayed in South Africa for more than 3 years).
BUT i have hig doubts that the strict Germans will accept any of this and let him go through.
It's just such a pain in the mule...
Why does this cohabit thing exist if it's basically not "worth" anything...

[Obie]

2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an
entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national
law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in
Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.

The notion that family members with Resident Card issued under Article 10 needs a visa to travel to member state, is as crazy as the UK and Ireland saying Article 10 refers to Resident card Issued by their respective countries, which will only be vaild for visa free travel to their countries.

The difference between Article 2 and Article 3 family members is the fact that Article 3 family member would need to provide evidence beyond familial relationship to qualify. Evidence which attest to Membership of the same household, Durable relationship, Dependancy or Serious Medical Condition which requires the care of the EEA national will be required, for such family members to qualify.

Article 2 family members only need to provide evidence of the familial relationship, and dependency for the parents.

Once it has been ascertain that Article 3 family members meet the criteria, they are awarded the same rights as Article 2 family members.

In EU law there is nothing like dicrimination of family members.

I came to Ireland, as family member of EEA National, without a visa, and the memberstate didn't refuse me entry and this has been endorsed by the commission, albeit the excessive delays and harassment me and my family underwent. We were eventually let through.

I find it inconceivable that i could have potentially faced deportation.

I am sure, if i held a UK issued resident card under Article 10, the harassment would have been minimal.

[Wanderer]

The thing is that my boyfriend only got the UK Residence Card because we could proof that we had cohabited for more than 4 years (when he applied for it back in 2007). And that "cohabit" means living LIKE a married couple. (Was initially for same gender couples only).
We have a paper from a South African lawyer saying that we cohabit (I stayed in South Africa for more than 3 years).
BUT i have hig doubts that the strict Germans will accept any of this and let him go through.
It's just such a pain in the mule...
Why does this cohabit thing exist if it's basically not "worth" anything...

It's because the Germans don't allow immigration of unmarried partners under German Law thereby cannot under EEA law - to do so would be unfair on German Citizens in Germany wanting to bring their unmarried partners into Germany.

Personally I feel your frustration having been thwarted by this myself, but on the whole I feel the EU has done well getting so far with this, across a wide range of cultures and language, attempting to overlay all those different legal systems with at EEA one - I don't think it could happen on any other continent without a war breaking out.

I'm not a fan of the way EEA rules have been implemented in this way but really I cannot see any other other than complete harmonisation under the United States of Europe, but we don't want to go down that route, remember what happened last time....

[DM18]

So if we were married, all we would need to show is the marriage certificate (if they ask for it at border control) and they'd let us pass. Did I get that much right or did people have trouble getting in even then?