Naturalization - An unusual predicament.. need ideas please

[nirmal_kishore]

Hello Folks
I am in what I think is an unusual predicament with my naturalization application and need ideas to hopefully try and figure the best solution out. By the way this is quite a long read so please be patient.

I applied for Naturalization in April 2007 at which time I completed over 5 years in the country. A couple of months later I moved to the UK for a very lucrative job. The application itself seems to have picked momentum in January this year when I received a letter from the INIS asking me to send them my birth and marriage certs in a format that the INIS considers as acceptable. I did so after about a month or two and there was a long lull period for over 6 months. And by the way I didn't sit quiet during the last 2.5 years of processing time. I actually kept the INIS folks updated that I have been working in the UK etc.. so they know my exact status.
Earlier this month I received a letter asking me to send them a copy of my up to date GNIB card -- and the fun begins!
My GNIB card actually expired in April 2009 (about 6 months ago) but I still submitted the copy because by definition that is my 'up to date' card. In probably one of the swiftest responses I ever had from INIS(reply letter in my hand in 2 working days), this is what they said (I am quoting from the letter):

"I would be grateful if you could let us know your expected date of return to Ireland as it has to be your intention to have your usual or principal place of residence in the State after Naturalisation, therefore we need a copy of your upto date GNIB card. "

As you can imagine I have read this statement over and over again to interpret what the INIS is exactly looking for. 'Do they just want to know when I'll return and they would issue the naturalization?' which I think is silly and too much wishful thinking from my side, or would they like me to find a job, get a work permit and return to Ireland following which they can issue me naturalization? - which is kinda tricky. I know that the fundamental principle they are operating on is 'fidelity to Ireland' which is totally understandable. I do have the fullest of intentions to return to Ireland but it ain't that straightforward if it is a case of my trying to find a job and get a work permit sponsored.

So my questions are:

1. Has anyone else been through a similar situation?
2. Can you interpret the statement from the INIS in a more meaningful manner?
3. I know there is the new system of issuing Stamp 4 if you have been on a work permit for 5 years but I don't know what the rules are. Could that be applicable in my case?
4. Any other ideas

Thanks
Nirmal

[agniukas]

i can only advise on the stamp 4 issue. you would not qualify for that, because you have to be here continously for 5 years on work permits in order to qualify for a temperary stamp 4. from your post i gather it is not the case.

[9jeirean]

If I understand your situation correctly, it is that:

1) You are not currently resident in Ireland (Though you were 5 yrs prior to your application)
2) Your Irish residency stamp is now expired
3) You are not certain as to when you will be legally back in Ireland

If the above are correct, then I do not see anything unusual about INIS's requesting your clarification re your current or future residency in Ireland. What would be unusual will be to expect INIS t naturalize you if you do not currently hold legal residency in Ireland. Up to date residency stamp is a requirement to grant residency. See here

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/In ... _To_Remain[/u]

[nirmal_kishore]

Hi 9jeirean
Thanks for your response. Yes your understanding is correct.

Regarding what the INIS has requested, I am not actually suggesting that it is unusual - infact I am reasonably happy with the outcome considering I have not actually been in the country for about 2 years and frankly I would not have been surprised even if they rejected it outright with the reason that I am not in Ireland.

I do understand the requirements for naturalization however I wanted to see if there are others out there in a similar situation. What I do think is that it is probably a bit of an overkill to have to go through what can be a tiring employment permit process (notwithstanding the current market conditions ofcourse) and almost (hopefully) instantly being able to get naturalised. It's a chicken and egg situation. Remotely somewhere I was hoping that there is a process that basically would allow me to get naturalised on the basis of a demonstrable intention (i.e. offer letters, joining the new company or any solid documentation) to return instead of having to get the employer apply for a work permit. Bear in mind the very idea of the work permit process puts off most employers.

So I guess I'll wait and see for few days if there is anyone out there who has gone through something similar. In the mean time however I am writing back to the INIS regarding my intention and also requesting some information around the options I might have at this stage.

Cheers
Nirmal

[walrusgumble]

Hi 9jeirean
Thanks for your response. Yes your understanding is correct.

Regarding what the INIS has requested, I am not actually suggesting that it is unusual - infact I am reasonably happy with the outcome considering I have not actually been in the country for about 2 years and frankly I would not have been surprised even if they rejected it outright with the reason that I am not in Ireland.

I do understand the requirements for naturalization however I wanted to see if there are others out there in a similar situation. What I do think is that it is probably a bit of an overkill to have to go through what can be a tiring employment permit process (notwithstanding the current market conditions ofcourse) and almost (hopefully) instantly being able to get naturalised. It's a chicken and egg situation. Remotely somewhere I was hoping that there is a process that basically would allow me to get naturalised on the basis of a demonstrable intention (i.e. offer letters, joining the new company or any solid documentation) to return instead of having to get the employer apply for a work permit. Bear in mind the very idea of the work permit process puts off most employers.

So I guess I'll wait and see for few days if there is anyone out there who has gone through something similar. In the mean time however I am writing back to the INIS regarding my intention and also requesting some information around the options I might have at this stage.

Cheers
Nirmal

One of the criteria for naturalisation is for the Minister to be satisfied that the applicant intends to reside in Ireland for the foreseeable future and not as a backdoor (addition of EU Citizenship) for places elsewhere in Europe. to do so would mean it digenerates the notion of Irish Citizenship

Halfway through the application waiting period, the department write back to seek up to date documents in order to be satisifed that the person is still in Ireland and not just collecting the five years (the easy bit) and fecking off somewhere else.

[nirmal_kishore]

Hi Walrusgumble
Fair points but I hope you were not serious about 'collecting the five years' being the 'easy bit'. With some of the most frustrating and often ridiculous policies and policy changes that have been in place in the Irish immigration system, even doing the 5 years is not quite that easy.

Anyway - the objective of this question wasn't that so getting back to the point. I have written back to the INIS explaining my intent and commitment to living in Ireland and I am hopeful of receiving a response next week.

rgds
Nanda

[walrusgumble]

Hi Walrusgumble
Fair points but I hope you were not serious about 'collecting the five years' being the 'easy bit'. With some of the most frustrating and often ridiculous policies and policy changes that have been in place in the Irish immigration system, even doing the 5 years is not quite that easy.

Anyway - the objective of this question wasn't that so getting back to the point. I have written back to the INIS explaining my intent and commitment to living in Ireland and I am hopeful of receiving a response next week.

rgds
Nanda

Sorry, that line about collecting the years was unfair.

However, I am sure you are aware that under Article 9.3 of the Constitution a citizen's fundamental duties include fidelity to the nation and loyality to the State. The State's attitude might be that your failure to renew your GNIB card might be an indication of your intention to stay in Ireland for the foreseeable future. The State, depending on the length of time away, might take a dim view of this, considering it refuses people for some really unfair reasons such as minor road traffic offences that occurred 3-4 years ago.

To explain, My attitude is that an applicant should, where possible and depending on the occupation (doctor would be an unfair expectation), refrain from moving away from the State until at least they have the passport. My reasoning is that it then is unfair to those who have waited 2-4 years after meeting the 3 (depending on circumstances) or 5 year rule and have shown prima facie and genuine evidence that they intend to stay in the country. You will be aware, that the Minister won't dish out passport to everyone as he must look at the State's resources etc to ensure that he can provide for all it's citizens. (well thats the excuse he gives, funny considering the millions of second & third generation Irish abroad have one and who never put foot in Ireland)

The purpose of the post is to try and give some explanation to the departments attitude. However, considering that the 1956-2004 act allows one, after 1 years continous residency, notch up the remaining 4 years during a period of 8 years, thus allowing some gaps, might help, as you at least, prior to leaving, assuming this is the case, notched up continous years

hope all works well. the ironic thing is that, considering you would likely have difficulity in getting work here, maybe the State might be only to glad, as seen in the 1940's, that oneof its citizens left the country to work elsewhere.

[walrusgumble]

hio