Visa Charge ( I have Stamp4) Confused

[MW]

Hi All

I did a search and read extensively lots of good information but not something that answer my exact question.

My wife and I were planning a short trip to Poland but we were asked to pay a 60euro fee. When I asked why the lady said because our marriage was not recognised under Polish law which confused me quite a bit as we went to France last year and didn't have to pay a fee for the visa. She has Stamp 4 and I am a Irish citizen so I thought we could apply for any visa and not have to pay for it. Can anyone give me some advice on this. This is on the Polish embassy site "** Spouses and dependants of Polish / EU nationals are not charged when applying for a visa." which is why I thought it would be free surely.

Cheers M

[John]

Where did the two of you get legally married?

[MW]

Hi John

We got married in Taiwan. And Taiwanese dont even need a visa to come to Ireland anymore.

[acme4242]

Hi MW,

Yes, a Schengen Visa to Poland for the spouse of any EEA/EU citizen, including Irish is free.

The EU law says the only proof you must show is
"a document issued by the competent authority of the State of origin
or the State whence they came, proving their relationship"

Firstly, I assume your marriage certificate is in English and Chinese.
There is no good reason to not recognise such an application, if you also
enclosed Official documentation from the GNIB
Your GNIB card, and STAMP-4 Irish resident permit, stating spouse of Irish Citizen.

Perhaps, the Polish Consulate Official did not want to
admit they made a mistake, or didn't know the law

I suggect you draw their attention to this again. And if they still
refuse to refund you. Then you have a number of options. Initially try and sort it out it with a senior offical.
If no joy, after you show them the EU law. ask them to reply in writing
This will make them think more carefully.

Sometimes, if its in a different language or to be awkward, they might
demand that the marriage cert is "notarised" as official.

[MW]

Thats the way I had understood it. Does that law cover spouse of an Irish citizen who does that not have EUFAM 4. I really thought that most of our Visa woes would be over after getting stamp 4. Also do you have a link to that law please. PS It only has 4 on her GNIB card not EU spouse could that be an issue.

Cheers M

[acme4242]

Does that law cover spouse of an Irish citizen who does that not have EUFAM 4. I really thought that most of our Visa woes would be over after getting stamp 4.
Cheers M

Yes, your spouse is covered by this EU law when you travel to another EU state.
However only a 4EUFam card can exempt you from the visa requirement
The STAMP-4 is useless.

My blog has some links and rants about some of the problems faced by Irish Citizens
http://acme.posterous.com/
Another more positive blog which describes your rights under EU law
http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... u-citizen/

Its like this, when you travel to another Union state you are covered by EU
law. e.g. 2004/38/EC
Note, that if you live in another EU state, and return to Ireland, you are
also covered by EU Law, in this case your wife can apply for a 4EUFam card. Even you are Irish

If you have only lived in Ireland your rights come from Irish Law. Hence the
useless STAMP-4
Your family rights under Irish Law have been torn up and thrown away.
in recent years

Ireland has now become one of the few countries in Europe who actively discriminate again its own citizens. This policy started in 2002
For example, Italy give their own Citizens spouse the 4EUFam card regardless, to avoid the discrimination you now face.

Note depending on your spouses nationality, she might also have to apply
for an Irish Re-Entry visa to get back into Ireland, even she is a spouse
and have a Irish resident permit. Too bloody Irish

[Ben]

Yes, your spouse is covered by this EU law when you travel to another EU state.
However only a 4EUFam card can exempt you from the visa requirement
The STAMP-4 is useless.

I think this is whether the Polish embassy may be confused.

Stamp 4 EUFAM: No compulsion to obtain a visa, however visa to be issued FOC if applied for.
Stamp 4: Visa required (depending on nationality), to be issued FOC.

The staff at the Polish embassy may be making a muddle of the above, thinking Stamp 4 (not EUFam) equals not covered by the Directive equals fee payable and, possibly, intrusive questions to be asked.

[MW]

Thanks for all the responses and the links.

Just an Update. Going from there aggressive stance of " You must pay or your not getting your visa " on Thursday to you need to prove your marriage document is real and legal and it will be granted on Friday. So after ringing everywhere all day I have been told that they should be recognized as legal as the GNIB have granted it. I asked for the Polish embassy to send me the reasons for asking me to pay in a e.mail and she refused. So I have to go in next week and argue with them over it and bring some kind of evidence that has "Spouse of an EU citizen" written on it. So I was thinking of going into the GNIB and asking them for some kind of stamp that states this. Or can anyone tell me some other document that would have this. She doesn't need a reentry visa but I was thinking of asking for one as I think this states Spouse of EU citizen.??

Cheers M

[acme4242]

You marriage cert is issued in Taiwan. You can contact the Taiwan Embassy
and request them to notary your marriage cert. There is usually a fee for
this.
But I'm not sure if this will satisfy the belligerent Poles.

Taiwan Embassy , Ireland
8 Lower Hatch Street
Dublin
Ireland
Phone:
+353-1-678-5413
Fax:
+353-1-676-1686
Email:
tpeire@indigo.ie

[Ben]

So I have to go in next week and argue with them over it and bring some kind of evidence that has "Spouse of an EU citizen" written on it. So I was thinking of going into the GNIB and asking them for some kind of stamp that states this. Or can anyone tell me some other document that would have this.

Yes, your marriage certificate and your Irish passport will prove that she is the spouse of an EU citizen. No?

[MW]

I was in touch with the Taiwan embassy and they told me it is a document issued by the government therefore should be recognised. Also they have never come across this problem with any other Taiwanese marriage certificate.

And seeing as they wont accept my marriage certificate as being legal in Poland I figure I have to get something from the GNIB stating spouse if an EU citizen as unfortunately it doesn't say it in anywhere. So I figure they can give me some sort of stamp or letter stating this.

But I did find this on the second" More positive ahahahah" blog above from acmes links

(a) the spouse;
(b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has contracted a registered partnership, on the basis of the legislation of a Member State,

So if Ireland recognise it that's all that matters surely.

I am also going to write a complaint letter to the Polish ambassador over the way we are being treated as I think it is totally unacceptable. Should it be in the form of a registered letter or would an e.mail suffice. Also who else should I cc on the mail so its taken more seriously.

Thanks
M

[acme4242]

Do you think your Irish MEP, might speak up for you ?

Some more links to read

EU rights links
http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/c ... ex_en.html

http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/ ... _ec_en.pdf

Case Law from the ECJ
=====================
see Case C-157/03 Commission vs Kingdom of Spain
in relation to Visa application procedures for
third country family members.

1. The requirement for an immigration visa
26. That national of a non-Member State should not be required to show any
independent reason for entering into the territory. His right, as a matter of
Community law, is derived from the right enjoyed by the Community national, so
that to require that person to fulfill formal conditions prior to entry into
national territory constitutes not only a restriction on his (derived) right but
also a restriction on the principal right of the Community national.

31. It is therefore apparent from the provisions of the directives on the
entry of members of the family, as interpreted by the Court, that entry
formalities must be restricted to the expressly specified documents and that any
further immigration procedure is not permissible.

"a document issued by the competent authority of the State of origin
or the State whence they came, proving their relationship"

[MW]

I don't any MEPs off hand but I really think they don't have a leg to stand on now that I am armed with so much legal reference. And the main key issue is they are WRONG in there actions. So frustrating.

Thanks for the links they are all going in my complaint letter.

Cheers M