Obie wrote:Your points are brilliant, despite the fact, i couldn't help noticing you are bending over backwards to justify, and in some cases sugarcoating the abhorrent conduct of the Irish authorities, and shying away from outrightly conveying your views on these issues.
It is not political correctness going to far, to say the Irish Government is wrong to single out Nigerians and Pakistani in their racially motivated campaigns. If these people find love, there is nothing wrong, as far as decent human beings are concerned.
Irish national marry to people from all over the globe, but their is no problem, other national from EU17 marry to people from all over the globe, but their seems to be no problem whatsoever, but when EU 10 do the same, it is problem, it is marriage of convenience, it is trafficking, it is business etc, and i find it sickening to say the list.
This issue is not about Ireland seeking to clamp down on sham marriage, it is them seeking to curtail the rights of migrant worker under Article 39 of the EC treaty and the Provisions adopted to give it effect such as Directive 2004/38EC.
I am perfectly aware that the dynamics of the EU has changed remarkably since it conception, however few member state don't seem to be coping well.
If i could put it this way, they are feeling a bit under the weather by these changes, because of unfounded and unjustified fears.
Like the OP has stated, put laws in place. If you think people are doing something wrong, and not just a pigment of one's imagination, them put laws in place and stop whining.
Ireland should either put up or shutup as this is non-issue.
you make myself clear. when i make points here or when i am discussing something as oppose to giving advice, i will always in writing look at all points of views, and try and give a balance comment. it tries to avoid having to come back here then and reply to someone who may have tought i forgot something or to justify my comments or be misunderstood.
my attitude is, i believe that there is a problem with the sham marriages. i have serious doubts over some. but, i do have huge problems with the minister's tactics because the reality is, history of a couple can greatly differ to others, no couple are the same. and it tars genuine couples with the same brush
i don't accept how some people of certain backgrounds marry soley for love in a short space of time, and when the non eu spouse's immigration status is dodgy. its naive and goes against some reports.what do you do when ya got two people of different nationalities and the two of them are barely capable of stringing a few words of english together? do you honesly believe, in some instances, that most of these people, if they meet in a club would start something together? you look at the strict religious attitudes and attitudes towards women in certain countries and think that women of other more european type countries would tolerate them never mind freely marry them? i could get killed here, but have you seen some of these couples?, normally some of these girls would be way of their league looks wise (same goes for the average irish man btw
, ya ya beauty is within )
this should not be seen as generalising everyone, it would be extremely ignorant and as you say potentially dearly beloved; i am simply saying from normal experience
Well its questinable about Nigerians and people from pakistan, particularily if they say in their asylum claims that they have children and partners (wives ie religious rites) back home!!They are being picked out because they are the ones involved. For some asylum seekers, their creditibility was shot when making application for asylum and found to be frivioulous. how can one trust their creditbility now? also, they are the main ones who have being caught getting involved in known sham marriages in the north and other states
Race has got nothing to do with this. Ireland don't have a problem with Nigerians or nationals of Paistan living here, so long as they in an legal manner and did not try and get in via loopholes and their marriages are genuine. its nonsense to suggest otherwise. they came in to apply for protection not to get married. why should those that abuse the system (ie sham marriages) should get light treatment. provisions should be in place to scare them off. I really doubt you or anyone who believes in proper procedures would disagree. If we take your attitude, then other countries in europe could be blamed for the same thing. It would be no different if it was americans (who dont have parents/grandparents from europe) or austrialians doing commonly doing this instead of nigerians and nationals of pakistan
Ireland, like the rest of europe is not a hotel. it is an institution of a number of countries that have rules and procedures in how people outside the club are entitled to enter and leave here. their responsibilities are to their citizens first and not to economic migrants from outside the union.
Ireland does not have a problem with the freemovement rules. it does not have a problem with other eu citizens and their partners living here. what it does have a problem, is that there are clear evidence and potential opportunities for abuse under the laws and they want europe to take responsibility and close them off . but how?
the reality is, there have been some justified reasons for government concern and the government have a duty to act a lot quicker than previous governments did in dealing with irish born child fiasco.
as for the eu 10, there would be the same problem if there was a common trend of students/illegals/holders of deporation orders/asylum seekers from places like nigeria, china , india marrying people from spain, france and portugal (ie west europe) its a trend in ireland, norway, and the uk. on a light note, do the nigerians and nationals of pakistans not fancy the germans, french, italians or british? who would have the bigger motive for taking money and being involved in these transaction and getting involved with they would not normally be attracted to or speak to; people from the established eu countries or people from the eu10? What Euorpean (continent wise, not political eu) countires have victims of trafficking come from in the past? who would have had more connection and history with places like africa, the established eu states or former russian states that make up eu10
That paragraph is simply to reply to your comments. you seem to suggest that its absolute nonsense that these things are not happening and that we bad men are simply picking on people because of their nationality and background and prejudice them because of their background. its nonsense
To conclude, this is not to generalise anyone who is genuine. i had no intentions or wishes to do so or offend. But people need to open their eyes.
I would disagree with your opinion on ireland's motives and would respectively suggest taking that chip off your shoulder. look at the few posts that sought advice on marriages that had ended rather short and now seek advice. look at the language of the post and their interest in staying here over saving their marriages. look at the comments of other immigrantswho had suggested or criticised the poster.
as for ireland not coping well, well we historically have been slow in dealing with directives (eg environment,) but so have others, and we don't exactly top the league of most appearances for ecj for breaching eu laws, uk and france take a bow
. we have also being naggy at times and only said yes to certain things after a substantial payment / grant, but we are not the only ones. ireland, after luxembourg is one of the most pro eu countries, look at the barometers one europa.eu for proof. Ireland and the UK are in a unique position compared to mainland europe, we are islands and together have empire history and connections with many african and asian countries (ireland as you know was once part of the british empire) those connections don't go away.for whatever reason, when the economies were good, ireland and uk were two of the most preferred destinations in the eu (for reasons i fail to comprehend). But other than that, I fail to see how one can say that Ireland is not coping. They have changed their laws and are now in compliance with the eu. the eu allow that states to insist on the validity of a marriage yet fail to give solid guidelines on how to do it. The build up to Metock was not clear cut as some think and it really could have gone either way in the akrich v jia/merax battle.It was the irish courts that sent the case to europe in order to clarify matters (an indication that one irish institute saw difficulties in the governments position). It could have ruled against them, force the applicants to first go to the supreme courts, lose and then fork out money to go europe, incure serious costs and years waiting for the case to occur. But the high court did not do that, it was correct on what it does and now we have a case that further clarified the eu law where once there was some confusion in certain cases involving illegals.
but yes, i agree, put laws in. provide solid and undisputed proofs and then go to europe with a better argument if they wish to see admendments to the laws. again it will take years to see if ireland was justified or not
THe ironic thing is, ireland won't really need to worry as many people are now unemployed and have left, thus there should be less successful applications on basis of eu national being unable to prove that they are exercising their rights. One thing that i finding interesting will be the marriage rates between non eu/illegals/students and other eu citizens in the next 1-3 years. i suspect that it maybe low.
I don't really think people of other countries, particularily those who are not from the eu have any right in dictating or determining whether this is a non issue. thats a matter between ireland and the european commissioners and council of state
still look forward with anticpation when the newer states get all hot up over an issue or two. If i recall, poland kicked up within a year or two after entering the eu in relation to the constitution and lisbon 1. the other countries bended over for them (thats some way to act when you are only the new boy in the school, normally ya would give it a few years before acting up)