Coalition Govt to unleash Marriage Crackdown

[HRY2005]

Non-EU citizens who wants to marry Brits must take English language test before they are allowed to marry in the UK.


http://blogs.notw.co.uk/politics/2010/0 ... kdown.html

[Wanderer]

Good - about time!!

[John]

Whilst the announcement will be made by the new Government, all they are doing is bringing into force a proposal announced some time ago by the Labour Government.

[Diva]

Fantastic news-maybe this will encourage 'communities' to actually intergrate into society if there is no longer the 'language barrier' some face because of the fact they move over in particular as a spouse, look for a job in their local community and settle into a way of life that caters for that barrier rather than people looking at ways of bringing the barrier down.

[bbbb]

Hey

Another way to look good, knowing most of migrants in the UK are from EU , what about them , It is easier to kick the weakiest ones.

[John]

bbbb, that is a difficult route to go down. After all British Citizens have the right to live and work in any other EEA country, for example France, Spain, Germany or Finland, without having a need to prove any language ability in French, Spanish, German or Finnish respectively.

[bbbb]

According to th article "The test is designed to prove that anyone who moves to Britain is planning to integrate themselves into society."

English is the main language form commonwealth countries like nigeria , sierra leona, ghana liberia Kenyan, Australian, South African etc , Do they need to take a test??

People ,from those countries, speak english better than most of EU-migrants and brits included.Surprise HO doesn t want to upset their European friends, Do they?

Let me give u an example , In france u need to be a french to teach in the public sector and speak french in the private. It is not the cae in the UK, that should be where they need to look at.

They just want to ease people minds

[batleykhan]

Ask me and I will say its outright discrimination against certain communuties.
Whats worse is that they still have to take the usual ESOL and KOL on top of this test.

I think it will be challenged and just like 3rd party support is now allowed, this will be overturned to.

By the way it doesnt matter about the largest group of migrants in to this country ( from Europe) they can continue to speak their own lingo, can move in and out frequently, make no commitment to this country, whereas those that want to come here for good and stay long term and commit themselves get kicked in the .......s.

[John]

By the way it doesnt matter about the largest group of migrants in to this country ( from Europe) they can continue to speak their own lingo, can move in and out frequently, make no commitment to this country, whereas those that want to come here for good and stay long term and commit themselves get kicked in the .......s.

In the same way British Citizens can live and work in any other EEA country, and need not show any commitment to the EEA country concerned. That is what it is all about ... freedom of movement inside the EEA.

Ask me and I will say its outright discrimination against certain communuties.

We are going to have to disagree on this one. It is surely a good idea that the visa applicant at least knows some English before moving here. Have you looked at the level of English that will be needed? As the Home Secretary describes it, level A1, or as I would prefer to say, having looked up a conversion chart, ESOL Entry level 1. Appreciate that is a very low level of English ability.

But even that is enough to get by, to go shopping, and to buy a bus ticket, etc etc ... enough to stop the person being totally isolated in the UK.

I write all the above from the background of someone married to a wife from a non-EEA country, where English is not the native language. Thankfully when she arrived her English was at ESOL Level 1, which is three levels above ESOL Entry level 1, so the test would not have been a problem. How do we know her level on arrival? Because shortly after arrival she signed on as a student at the Brasshouse Language Centre, and her level was promptly tested, and then she passed the Cambridge FCE exam..

[Kitty]

I do have a bit of a problem with these "for your own good" criteria.

Yes, I would personally not expect to move to a country without learning please, thank you and "how much is a beer?".

But KOL/ESOL is already required for settlement, which for spouses is only after 2 years in the UK. Is there good evidence that a significant number of people are not learning English during that period? How are they remaining in the UK in that case?

In my eyes, this basically introduces an extra level of bureaucracy and expense into the application procedure, when there is already a mechanism for ensuring language-learning for the purposes of settlement.

[John]

But KOL/ESOL is already required for settlement, which for spouses is only after 2 years in the UK. Is there good evidence that a significant number of people are not learning English during that period? How are they remaining in the UK in that case?

The answer to that is simple. They are applying, in the UK, for a further 2-year visa. That is, if the person does not have a pass certificate from the Life in the UK Citizenship test, or a completion certificate from a combined ESOL/Citizenship course, they need to apply on form FLR(M) to allow a further 2 years in the UK.

I do have a bit of a problem with these "for your own good" criteria.

So do you also think that we should cancel the need for TB tests, in the countries where those are currently required?

[Kitty]

The answer to that is simple. They are applying, in the UK, for a further 2-year visa. That is, if the person does not have a pass certificate from the Life in the UK Citizenship test, or a completion certificate from a combined ESOL/Citizenship course, they need to apply on form FLR(M) to allow a further 2 years in the UK.

Is there evidence that a lot of people are doing that, though? I can see that it's the route you would use, but it's expensive and bureaucratic in its own right: is it a genuine problem?

So do you also think that we should cancel the need for TB tests, in the countries where those are currently required?

Are those not for the good of the existing UK population as well as the applicant though? Again, I think it's a question of whether there's a genuine problem that needs to be solved. What is the cost to the UK population in general of settlement applicants only demonstrating their English language ability after 2 years? For example, I appreciate that it is expensive for local authorities to provide advice and forms in mutliple languages, but is this measure likely to address that?

[batleykhan]

Quote:
Ask me and I will say its outright discrimination against certain communuties.


We are going to have to disagree on this one. It is surely a good idea that the visa applicant at least knows some English before moving here. Have you looked at the level of English that will be needed? As the Home Secretary describes it, level A1, or as I would prefer to say, having looked up a conversion chart, ESOL Entry level 1. Appreciate that is a very low level of English ability.

What I meant by this is that its dicriminatory against people who come from countries whose first language is not English. Its ok for Aussies, Canadians, South Africans, West Indians, Nigerians etc but not for those from the Indo subcontinent at whom this is primarily aimed.

Is it not a waste of time for people from the above countries to take this test, surely they know enough English to pass the test. Or are they go to name certain countries where people have to do this. just like they do for TB tests. If that is the case that to me is discrimination.

I just dont know why this government have the ball to come out and say we dont want anymore Asians, becausue that is what they really want to do. In my opinion there are ways to do this, but the government is going about it the wrong way. This is just going to frustate and alienate any people to whom it may apply.

Here by the way is the official Home Office announcement on this subject posted today on their website

Latest news and updates
Migrants marrying UK citizens must now learn English

08 June 2010

Compulsory English language tests will be introduced for non-European migrants applying to come to the UK to join or marry their settled partner, the UK government announced today.

From autumn 2010, they will need to demonstrate a basic command of English which allows them to cope with everyday life before they are granted a visa.

The new rules will apply to anyone applying as the husband, wife, civil partner, unmarried partner, same-sex partner, fiance(e) or prospective civil partner of a UK citizen or a person settled in this country. They will be compulsory for people applying from within the UK as well as visa applicants from overseas.

Home Secretary Theresa May said:

'I believe being able to speak English should be a prerequisite for anyone who wants to settle here. The new English requirement for spouses will help promote integration, remove cultural barriers and protect public services.

'It is a privilege to come to the UK, and that is why I am committed to raising the bar for migrants and ensuring that those who benefit from being in Britain contribute to our society.

'This is only the first step. We are currently reviewing English language requirements across the visa system with a view to tightening the rules further in the future.

'Today's announcement is one of a wide range of measures the new government is taking to ensure that immigration is properly controlled for the benefit of the UK, alongside a limit on work visas and an effective system for regulating the students who come here.'

Anyone wishing to come to the UK as a partner will need to demonstrate basic English at A1 level, the same level required for skilled workers admitted under Tier 2 of the points-based system.

A partner coming to the UK from outside Europe will need to provide evidence with their visa application that they have passed an English language test with one of our approved test providers.

Under the current rules, people applying for visas as partners must already meet a range of criteria before being allowed to enter the UK. All applicants must show that their marriage or partnership is genuine, and that they can support themselves financially.

Whether they have married in the UK or overseas (or not at all), the non-UK partner must apply for a two-year settlement visa to come and live in the UK as a husband, wife, civil partner, unmarried partner or same-sex partner. At the end of the two years, they can apply to us for permission to settle in the UK (known as 'indefinite leave to remain').

Partners who apply for settlement after completing their two-year period of temporary residence will still need to meet the 'knowledge of language and life in the UK' test. This is in addition to the new basic English language requirement, which forms part of their initial application.

[John]

What I meant by this is that its dicriminatory against people who come from countries whose first language is not English. Its ok for Aussies, Canadians, South Africans, West Indians, Nigerians etc but not for those from the Indo subcontinent at whom this is primarily aimed.

I fear you are jumping to conclusions ... effectively making 2+2=5. Of course it effectively only applies to those from "countries whose first language is not English", because everyone else will not tend to be facing a potential language problem on arrival in the UK. But then to go on and specify the "Indo subcontinent" is simply a jump too far. My own wife is certainly not from the "Indo subcontinent", and many other spouses etc from non-English language speaking countries do come to the UK, be it from China, Japan, Thailand, Korea, the Philippines, or most of South and Central America. Even for Canadians we cannot guarantee they come from an English-speaking country!

But again I emphasise, the standard of English required is pretty low, ESOL Entry Level 1, and surely it is not unreasonable to require people to have that minimum standard.

I am sure no one reading this topic is thinking that culturally it is necessary for newly-arrived spouses etc to be only able to communicate through their new family members? Their spouse, their mother-in-law? If anyone is having such cultural thoughts, and I make no accusation, personally my view is strengthened ... it is absolutely essential that the new language requirements are brought in as soon as possible.

Living here in Birmingham, which is very multi-cultural, I know there are areas where many ethnic minority people tend to live. and it is not unknown for in particular the wife of the family, who could well be British, and who has been in the UK for quite a few years, before the KOL requirements were added ... only 6 years ago ..... whose English is very poor or non-existent. This causes real problems, even for example at parent's evening at school, where often the quite young children are needing to translate the teacher's words for their mother.

This cycle has got to be broken! I commend the new Government for pushing through the proposal from the previous Labour Government.

[batleykhan]

Living here in Birmingham, which is very multi-cultural, I know there are areas where many ethnic minority people tend to live. and it is not unknown for in particular the wife of the family, who could well be British, and who has been in the UK for quite a few years, before the KOL requirements were added ... only 6 years ago ..... whose English is very poor or non-existent. This causes real problems, even for example at parent's evening at school, where often the quite young children are needing to translate the teacher's words for their mother.

Thats probally because the way British people speak their own language.

I have lived here for over 40yrs and work with a Geordie , Scousers and Jim from Glasgow and believe me I still dont know what they are saying half the time So how do you expect an asian woman who has probally being here for a 2-3 yrs to understand the school teacher?.

I think its time the British people spoke proper English, so others can understand them for once

On a serious noteI fully accept what you say John, and take it from me a lot of asian people do make the effort to learn English , I often help out the local community centre and mosque where we offer basic English lessons free of charge and the numbers who turn up is unbelievably high as the helpers can speak both English and their own language. That is very helpful. However this type of service is not offered at the local college nearby as teh tutors are all English and can not communicate in a any other language with someone who cant speak English.

If this type of service was widely available, it would speed up the process of people learning the language faster.

After all ask an Englishman to learn a foreign language and lets see how long it will take him to do that

[pennylessinindia]

will this be the same for ILE applications do you think?

[John]

At the Brasshouse Language Centre here in Birmingham, which is the UK's largest specialist language school, they teach something like 28 different languages, including English! And they also run CELTA courses, which is a qualification to do with the teaching of English as a foreign language.

At Brasshouse, given that students come from all over the world, it would be totally impossible for the tutor to know everyone's native language. And anyone who is CELTA-trained certainly knows how to teach English to those who have no or little English ability already. So whilst the people you mention might feel more comfortable learning from someone who speaks their native language, evidence would show that they might well learn quicker from someone who does not speak their language.

After all CELTA is all about teaching English ... anywhere in the world! So armed with a CELTA certificate, someone could (with any necessary visa etc.) fly off to anywhere in the world and start teaching English, with little or no ability to speak the language where they are going to.

Finally, how do babies learn? They have no native language to start with!

[John]

will this be the same for ILE applications do you think?

If it really is an ILE application, that is, the person has already passed the Life in the UK Citizenship test, then I suspect that by definition the pass certificate from that test will prove the matter of the English ability.

But the applicant, whilst they might have lived with their spouse/partner outside the UK for at least 4 years, if they have not passed the Citizenship Test yet, well it will not be an ILE application, will it.

[pennylessinindia]

I had wondered with the new pathway to citizenship whether ILE would disappear quietly. Given life in UK is in English would assume that a pass in this would show a level well above that proposed

[batleykhan]

So whilst the people you mention might feel more comfortable learning from someone who speaks their native language, evidence would show that they might well learn quicker from someone who does not speak their language.

Again I accept that.

However if you try and ask an Asian housewife whose probally got young kids,has to look after the house, cook the meals etc to take out time to attend a local college on a regular basis to learn English or alternatively she can pop down to the local community centre where they will be other Asian women and as a group learn English with an Asian female instructor/teacher, I know she will choose the latter.

As for the men, well most of them usually work long hours to provide their families and usaually come home late evenings (7-8pm) by which time its to late to go to college, therefore we provide late evening and weekend classes in the local mosque ( Muslim men anyway) as they normally attend for their prayers and we grab them and spend time with them teaching them basic English and how, where and when to do things.

As for CELTA, I am seriously thinking about doing it, but its matter of finding enough time what with having a full time job, helping out on this forum, helping out the community centre/mosque and not forgetting to spend some precious time with the grand kids now and then

[zeddy zed]

I agree with fact that learning english is important and helps one to integrate into the society.

However in my opinion pre entry english tests are unfair because individuals may not have access to the facilities to learn english i.e. in rural areas there are no places where they can learn english. In addition to this it would be more difficult to learn english in a country where english is not the main language, it takes time to learn a new language , this will cause a lot of stress for people in this situation and people will be seperated from loved ones.

I think its more appropriate to learn english once in the uk when one is with his loved ones and where good facilities are avaliable to learn english. In addition to this it would be easier to learn english in uk as everyones speaking english around you , ect..


Even though i do not agree with the pre entry english test , what i do not understand is usually when they intend to implement a new law they give prior notice with sufficient time, for example when they changed the age limit i think they told people almost a year before implementing it.

However this time they intend to implement the test in autum which is only a couple months away. They should have given sufficent notice so peolpe who are already married could make their application and are not caused stress. This way people who are already married would be ok and people who intend to marry would know the law and could take in into account before making the decision to get married.

[John]

However this time they intend to implement the test in autum which is only a couple months away. They should have given sufficent notice so peolpe who are already married could make their application and are not caused stress. This way people who are already married would be ok and people who intend to marry would know the law and could take in into account before making the decision to get married.

I agree with that, and note that today's merely talks about "the autumn", which is totally insufficient for the purpose. Very soon we need to know a specific implementation date, and also confirmation that applications submitted prior to that date will be dealt with under the current rules.

Also people need to be given sufficient time to study for and pass the required test. Indeed at an early date, details need to be released about how and where the test is to be taken.

Also will there be any medical or age exemptions, in the same sort of way as there are the Life in the UK Citizenship test?

Details ..... soon please!

[HRY2005]

However this time they intend to implement the test in autum which is only a couple months away. They should have given sufficent notice so peolpe who are already married could make their application and are not caused stress. This way people who are already married would be ok and people who intend to marry would know the law and could take in into account before making the decision to get married.

I agree with that, and note that today's merely talks about "the autumn", which is totally insufficient for the purpose. Very soon we need to know a specific implementation date, and also confirmation that applications submitted prior to that date will be dealt with under the current rules.

Also people need to be given sufficient time to study for and pass the required test. Indeed at an early date, details need to be released about how and where the test is to be taken.

Also will there be any medical or age exemptions, in the same sort of way as there are the Life in the UK Citizenship test?

Details ..... soon please!

Honestly I would support the Labour govt idea of proofs of English and life in the UK after the 27 months spouse visa probation. I believe in Labour's genuine intention on this matter, for not making this a part of the "test issue" announced few years ago.

The Conservatives are just using this as a very cheap political point-scoring. If the true intentions is to ensure "Societal Integration", the non EU's are 20% in the Migration Stats (Nick Clegg, 2010), what happens to the EEA 80% and their "english!!! very little" ?

While I appreciate it as a good idea, limiting the requirements to only non-EU's is biased (regardless of the EU's free movement) even when your targets are the non-EU's, should have been English language for everyone who wants to settle in the UK, if that can't be achieved there should be an alternative procedure.

The best option was Labour's meet the spouse visa requirements, come to the UK, live and work in the UK for 2 years learn and then prove you can speak English and life in the UK before being allowed settlement. That is the best route to integration.

[bbbb]

As I said before , This new law is a joke.
What about the non-EU partner of an Eu citizen settled in the UK...??
Should he/she take a test ??
They are too many holes in it...