Need some very Good Advice

[knapps]

Guys, I am looking for some good advice. I have lived in Ireland for 7 years and married for 4 n half years. currently hold eufam 4 card for 4 and half years.

My EU spouse wants to move back to her country due to her health issues. she has 0 percent trust in hospitals here in Ireland and I agree with her as we have been through a lot.

If I go with her to live in czech what would happen to my permanent residency. To let you know I have got a very good job here in Ireland and she is working too.

I know in czech after 2 years i can apply for permanent residency.

Any advice. I am stressed:-(((

[Ben]

Hi Knapps.

If your wife leaves Ireland now, your right to reside in Ireland is lost and you must also leave.

If your wife waits six months from now, you will have acquired the right of permanent residence in Ireland. This status is only lost if you are absent from Ireland for more than two consecutive years.

[walrusgumble]

Article 11
Validity of the residence card
1. The residence card provided for by Article 10(1) shall be
valid for five years from the date of issue or for the envisaged
period of residence of the Union citizen, if this period is less
than five years.
2. The validity of the residence card shall not be affected by
temporary absences not exceeding six months a year, or by
absences of a longer duration for compulsory military service
or by one absence of a maximum of 12 consecutive months
for important reasons such as pregnancy and childbirth, serious
illness, study or vocational training, or a posting in another
Member State or a third country.


Article 16
General rule for Union citizens and their family members
1. Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous
period of five years in the host Member State shall have the right of permanent residence there. This right shall not be
subject to the conditions provided for in Chapter III.
2. Paragraph 1 shall apply also to family members who are
not nationals of a Member State and have legally resided with
the Union citizen in the host Member State for a continuous
period of five years.
3. Continuity of residence shall not be affected by temporary
absences not exceeding a total of six months a year, or by
absences of a longer duration for compulsory military service,
or by one absence of a maximum of 12 consecutive months
for important reasons such as pregnancy and childbirth, serious
illness, study or vocational training, or a posting in another
Member State or a third country.
4. Once acquired, the right of permanent residence shall be
lost only through absence from the host Member State for a
period exceeding two consecutive years.


Article 17
Exemptions for persons no longer working in the host
Member State and their family members
1. By way of derogation from Article 16, the right of permanent
residence in the host Member State shall be enjoyed
before completion of a continuous period of five years of residence
by:
(a) workers or self-employed persons who, at the time they
stop working, have reached the age laid down by the law
of that Member State for entitlement to an old age pension
or workers who cease paid employment to take early retirement,
provided that they have been working in that
Member State for at least the preceding twelve months and
have resided there continuously for more than three years.
If the law of the host Member State does not grant the
right to an old age pension to certain categories of selfemployed
persons, the age condition shall be deemed to
have been met once the person concerned has reached the
age of 60;
(b) workers or self-employed persons who have resided
continuously in the host Member State for more than two
years and stop working there as a result of permanent incapacity
to work.
If such incapacity is the result of an accident at work or an
occupational disease entitling the person concerned to a
benefit payable in full or in part by an institution in the
host Member State, no condition shall be imposed as to
length of residence;
(c) workers or self-employed persons who, after three years of
continuous employment and residence in the host Member
State, work in an employed or self-employed capacity in
another Member State, while retaining their place of residence
in the host Member State, to which they return, as a
rule, each day or at least once a week.
For the purposes of entitlement to the rights referred to in
points (a) and (b), periods of employment spent in the
Member State in which the person concerned is working
shall be regarded as having been spent in the host Member
State.
Periods of involuntary unemployment duly recorded by the
relevant employment office, periods not worked for reasons
not of the person's own making and absences from work or
cessation of work due to illness or accident shall be regarded as
periods of employment.
2. The conditions as to length of residence and employment
laid down in point (a) of paragraph 1 and the condition as to
length of residence laid down in point (b) of paragraph 1 shall
not apply if the worker's or the self-employed person's spouse
or partner as referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 is a national
of the host Member State or has lost the nationality of that
Member State by marriage to that worker or self-employed
person.
3. Irrespective of nationality, the family members of a
worker or a self-employed person who are residing with him in
the territory of the host Member State shall have the right of
permanent residence in that Member State, if the worker or
self-employed person has acquired himself the right of permanent
residence in that Member State on the basis of paragraph
1.
4. If, however, the worker or self-employed person dies
while still working but before acquiring permanent residence
status in the host Member State on the basis of paragraph 1,
his family members who are residing with him in the host
Member State shall acquire the right of permanent residence
there, on condition that:
(a) the worker or self-employed person had, at the time of
death, resided continuously on the territory of that Member
State for two years; or
(b) the death resulted from an accident at work or an occupational
disease; or

[knapps]

Hi Ben,
Are you sure if your information is correct??

I read it before if you are married for at least 3 years with an EU national and if after that your EU spouse either leave you or you are separated or leave the country your rights as a non EU member under EU directive would not be affected.

Can anyone clarify please???

[walrusgumble]

Hi Ben,
Are you sure if your information is correct??

I read it before if you are married for at least 3 years with an EU national and if after that your EU spouse either leave you or you are separated or leave the country your rights as a non EU member under EU directive would not be affected.

Can anyone clarify please???

Why are you asking about this? She is ill, how does that effect the marriage? "For better or for worse"? Why is that question even coming into the environment?

You don't expect anyone to give you suggestions that may come across as evidence of dodginess. I would be concerned with the tone of your enquiry on that particular question. please kindly confirm. You are either married or not. (not enough to say you are married, it must be legit, evidence of same must be produced that you lived together prior to divorce)

I know you are only asking, but you would be some strange fellow altogether if you had this in mind. you cant expect people to be giving others ideas. better off for them to come out with the truth ie marriage failed, like many marriages (this does not in any way suggest to you, anything other than what you have stated, ie your spouse is ill) it leads to any authority to be justifibly suspicious and sceptical and play into the hands of the authorities recent statements on certain marriages

Weren't you not really aware of the risk that one day your spouse would return to her home country? Wouldn't you have gone with them?

€50 that this issue will be a regular excuse to invoke the said provisions covering here , in the future

You need to understand that you come here, seeking advice, on a public website, and you are more interesting in seeing whether you can end your marriage? I thought she was going over for health reasons?? You would be some strange fellow.


The legislation, by the way refers to divorce or annulment and not separation! (in reality, most people would not have problems)


For reasons provided in the regulations, it appears, that if you return to her coi, whilst she is receiving treatment (will it be better than Ireland? fair play) for a certain period, it would not effect the status. Your last email draws concern as to your motive. I do not mean to be rude, but until you confirm and clarify, I do not apologise for the suspicion

[fatty patty]

Whatever intention one had when they married there EU spouse doesn't matter (that should matter to the party concerned and the registrar/authorities). What matters is there question...if its put up in that context its there fault, we are not there mommy/dady or the morality police and start lecturing them on marital/natal issues.

You implied that weren't you not really aware of the risk of returning to your EU spouse's country. Same questions implies to EU spouses then....aren't they aware of the risk of returning to their non-EU spouse's country when they marry? But anyway i think we are straying away from the point.

Point is it's 3 years that you can apply on your own rights thats in divorce cases, otherwise its 5.

Divorce
If you got divorced before acquiring permanent residence in the other country (which usually requires living there for 5 years) - your non-EU spouse, (grand)children and (grand)parents may stay if:

they have been living there for at least 1 year, and your marriage lasted for at least 3 years before divorce proceedings started.

to be able to stay, your non-EU family members must also meet the same conditions for residence as EU nationals.

source: http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens ... nts_en.htm

BTW Czech Republic is a beautiful country speaking from experience and one of the economic powerhouses after Germany/Austria in that part of the EU.

[walrusgumble]

Whatever intention one had when they married there EU spouse doesn't matter (that should matter to the party concerned and the registrar/authorities). What matters is there question...if its put up in that context its there fault, we are not there mommy/dady or the morality police and start lecturing them on marital/natal issues.

You implied that weren't you not really aware of the risk of returning to your EU spouse's country. Same questions implies to EU spouses then....aren't they aware of the risk of returning to their non-EU spouse's country when they marry? But anyway i think we are straying away from the point.

Point is it's 3 years that you can apply on your own rights thats in divorce cases, otherwise its 5.

Divorce
If you got divorced before acquiring permanent residence in the other country (which usually requires living there for 5 years) - your non-EU spouse, (grand)children and (grand)parents may stay if:

they have been living there for at least 1 year, and your marriage lasted for at least 3 years before divorce proceedings started.

to be able to stay, your non-EU family members must also meet the same conditions for residence as EU nationals.

source: http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens ... nts_en.htm

BTW Czech Republic is a beautiful country speaking from experience and one of the economic powerhouses after Germany/Austria in that part of the EU.

the divorce clause is not much use really,in Ireland, seeing that between the length of time it takes to be allowed to divorce and length of time through the courts, in Ireland, it maybe 5 years or so by the time the divorce paper is out. Either way, at least 3 years sustisting marriage (or less with children etc) one would get status on their own account.

Quickly moving on (as you noted not the point in thread) it is not a question of morality or lecturering. Its a matter of whether certain groups are taking the liberal rules for a ride. And its hardly "there" fault when the courts prevent member states to do any meangiful tests as to marriage, as seen in the UK House of Lords. Anyway, even with the registrar tests proposed, any clever couple would pass it, hence the dracionian attempts by countries like ireland.anyway thats all academic now.

But anyway, issues like this is not the case here. Sorry Knapps if you think otherwise as you clearly stated you intended to head over. but that bit about the three years sounded too suspicious. hope your spouse makes a speedy recovery

[Obie]

Without appearing to defend the OP in anyway, i believe he gave three possibilities, or what he thought were the possible ways a person can retain their rights of residence. They are, divorce, seperated or the EU national left the Irish state.

The first of those 3 possible routes, is what applies to Spouses of EU national, the second has no legal basis and the third applies to children of EU nationals or their spouse who are undertaking educational activities in the Host State, after the migrant worker has left. The later is expressly provided for by the EU jurisprudence.

I don't think one can deduce from that question, that he is seeking to finish his marriage with his EU spouse so as to circumvent EU rules or abuse provisions of it. If anything, it will be fair to say he is thinking of the last possibilities, should the wife wish to permanently relocate, then he might reasonably choose to work in Ireland and visit wife on a regular basis, which i think is overboard. It does not in anyway mean the marriage was contracted for the sole purpose of obtaining residency rights, or am i missing something. In fact he mentioned relocating to Czech republic and seem to have researched about his legal status, should he relocate. All of which indicates, he is putting all his options on the table, which i don't view as suspicious.

Even if it meant that, it is not my place on anyone for that matter to start probing his affairs. Their are community laws to deal with abuse i am sure, and the Irish have shown their ability to use and abuse those rules, as and when they see fit, to further their agenda.

I think this is a legitimate question and i don't believe he should be looked at with a suspicious spectacle for asking the same.

There is no law, to the best of my little knowledge that specificially states that a married couple have to live in the same place with their spouse all the time, or are not allowed to work in a different place from that in which their spouse lives.

Anyway, i will try not to probe in this matter, or fan the flame in this thread.

It is settled EU case law, that married couples can conduct their lives or relationship in whatever way they choose , without interferance from competent authorities, or any concerned citizens, as the case may be.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Result.do?arg0 ... mit=Search

Czech Republic, treats the spouses of their national in ways that are exactly identical to EU national exercising treaty rights their, when it come to family reunification.

Given the choice between there and Ireland any day, i know which one i will choose, without a second thought, then again everyone's circumstances are different.

So i believe you will be fine.

Please note that, if she cease to exercise treaty rights in Ireland, then you rights to stay in Ireland might be curtailed, under law, if the authorities are made aware.

[knapps]

Well first of all I thank each and every one who has input some thoughts to assist me. Without prejudice, I really do not care what people think or suspect but all I can say I asked a question pertaining to a situation I am in at the moment.

There is no intentions to end the marriage or use the marriage to gain access to Ireland. If people know me here I previously asked a question about my spouse PPS number as she went under two major operation this year in Czech republic when she was away fro about 10 months on health grounds and I visited her 3 times over.

So, she is back and we are all happy but she is having some health issues again and I think every single person here would agree that Hospitals need another 50 years in Ireland to improve and I can't put her health at risk.

So, my dear fellows When you live in a 3rd country neither of you are from some problems occur in life and I am trying to seek assistance that is the only motive I have.


I finished my education in Ireland, I am in a great company just to let you know. So, if i move to CR i know after 2 years i can apply for permanent residency and I have more chance their to get it than in IReland being a spouse of CR.

so, please please do not jump on your guns and assume I am abusing the system. I disgust people who do it and I have posted many threads before in relation to that.

In the end..please keep advising as I Value you all.