uk-born baby (Cdn citizen) - what needed to return to UK?

[ukcanadababy]

Hello,

I would be grateful for your advice. We are a couple of Canadians, one student, one dependent of student with a job who have a 3 month old baby. Baby was born in the UK, has UK birth certificate and has just received her Canadian passport. We would like to go to Canada on business-family visit in 4 weeks and thought that because her parents have valid visas until January 2007 she would be allowed back in. However, it seems she might need a visa or something, which we did not expect.

My question: What kind of permission does she need?

I was told she might need to use form FLR-O, but that does not seem appropriate because it is for request for extension of stay. And she cannot extend her stay as she does not have any visa so far, she was just recently born. As well, the fee of 335 GBP by post - 500 GBP in person is prohibitive. Not only that, they say by post it is 4-14 weeks wait and that would not arrive in time if we wanted to go by end of June.

Thus, I wonder if she can apply as dependent of a student for 6 months stay or less?, which, as a Canadian, means she does not require a visa, only needs to satisfy the immigration officer upon entry that she will not overstay the 6 months, which as parents we could do somehow (what documents?)

I wonder if we can do this because we would return in early July, and we intend to stay only until September when the degree is completed. Our visas run out in January, which is also 6 months more or less. Could this be done? I am trying to make this affordable, as we would like to visit ailing grandmother (her great-grandmother) and the fees would make it impossible for us to go.

Thank you all for your advice.

[John]

Hi, good to see your message here.

Firstly I think what will not work is trying to get the baby back into the UK without any UK visa in her Canadian passport. I say that because of the UK visas already in the passports of both parents.

Application in the UK? Yes FLR(O) is indeed the correct form ... even though no previous visa held my the baby. And yes the application fee really is £335 by post or £500 in person at a PEO. Ouch!

However ... and other opinions most welcome on this .... assuming you are going back to Canada for at least part of the summer .... I can't see any reason why the visa application can't be made in Canada .... in a similar way presumably as both parents got their visas. Having just looked at the BHC Ottawa website it seems the application fee would be CAN$187 .... which might just be a little more acceptable!

Expect the child to be given a visa bearing the same expiry date in January 2007 as the parents.

Other opinions most welcome about this.

[ppron747]

Not quite confident enough to venture an opinion, but perhaps a question - if the parents will only be remaining in UK for about three months after their return from Canada in July, couldn't Baby just come in as a visitor, without prior entry clearance?

[jes2jes]

ppron747
I agree totally with you. Canadian citizens are VF nationals and hence since the duration of the visa is until early 2007 there is no need of paying for a new one. The child can enter and the IO will issue a visa for a specific length of time. If that time is within that of the parents then no extension is needed. If the extension is less than the parents visa then at the expiration of the child's visa, an extension is needed based on the parents current visa.
Saying this because I have friends who's kids have been born abroad who were not British Citizens but the countries the kids where born where VF nationals and they were all permited to enter the UK and apply for extension when the child's visa expires.

Hope this is clear. Save your money for a trust fund for your child ukcanada baby.
Jes

[ppron747]

Much as I'm gratified to be agreed with, it was intended as a question rather than a solution!

I don't know whether the fact that Baby's parents aren't here as visitors might make a difference to Baby's eligibility to be a visitor herself...

Any other views, either way, just to be sure?

[John]

I don't know whether the fact that Baby's parents aren't here as visitors might make a difference to Baby's eligibility to be a visitor herself...

That is my fear, I certainly think this will get queried.

Other opinions on this very welcome!

[jes2jes]

John + others:

The best I think is to contact the HO and clarify this with them before leaving so that it would be plain. I stand corrected on any points since I'm not an expert.
Thanks.

[ukcanadababy]

Hi. Thanks for your replies and advice. Could someone tell me what VF, IO and HO mean? Sorry, I am not very familiar with visa issues.

I did call the Immigration and Nationality Directorate (IND) and the woman on the other side told me to use the FLRO, she was not very friendly. It is true, I did not explain we would only stay for a few more months, perhaps they might change their advice? They have sent a form in the mail. Now I am worried that if we do something different, that they will give us trouble as they know already my name and address and could cross reference that - or is this too paranoid?

Another person did suggest she could come in as a tourist, she will not go to school or work and will be fully supported by parents, being just a wee babe. But I am not sure if they would allow as we are not tourists. However, I can imagine that if the child was bigger and came to visit her parents who were on student visas, she could be let in as a visitor then, so why not now?

I guess I would have to call the IND again but I am afraid that they would say no, she can't be a visitor, though I think she should be able to, or at least come in as a dependent for student less than 6 months. Is this the HO you are suggesting I call? Can you tell me where to find the phone number?

Any other advice would be very welcome.

Thank you.

[ppron747]

VF, I think, is shorthand for "visa-free" - the longhand way of putting it is that Canadians aren't "visa-nationals" - ie they arent in that category of people who need a visa for all travel to the UK.
IO = Immigration Officer - the officer at the airport, as opposed ECO, who is the Entry Clearance Officer to whom you apply at a British mission overseas
HO = Home Office, of which IND is part.

In one of your other questions, I'd be astonished to learn that the Home Office was joined-up enough to link the fact that they've sent you an application form with anything that you did subsequently...

Sorry we're not reaching a consensus over ths question. My logic in rasing the question of the necessity for a visa for baby was that visitors are generally admitted for up to six months. From what you say, baby's return to UK is planned to be for several months less than that. Even if your present plan to leave in September goes awry, the fact is that your existing permission expires some time in January so - depending on the exact date - it could be almost guaranteed that baby would be here for less than the full six months, unless all of you are planning to overstay your permission, which there are no grounds for suspecting.....

So really it boils down to the technical question of whether the child of a person on a student visa is regarded as a "visa national" herself, regardless of the proposed length of her stay in the UK. My view is that it would fly in the face of logic for this to be the case - but the trouble is that the law is not necessarily logical. And does the fact that you haven't already made a so-called "further leave" application for baby make a difference to the final answer?

In your shoes, I'd be inclined to try again with IND - emphasising your final departure plans in September.

Oh - and watch this space!....

[jes2jes]

PPron747
In my previous reply I posted a couple of comments. I will tell you that a friend of mine in the situation as this person who posted the original mail was on student visa. Their babies were born in the US. Last year the bloke went over to bring both mother and two kids over to England. Their visa was for another 6-8 months before expiry (but I can check), they came through LHR without any prior visa and the babies where given 6 months each to apply for stay when it expired if I remember. My own brother was on WP until last week before changing to ILR, his last boy was born in the US. Son came to the UK without prior clearance and was given a limited time to stay for the parents to apply for leave to remain based on their current status. Any questions please shout.

[ukcanadababy]

Hi, thanks for the abbreviation definitions. I guess if you were suggesting calling the Home Office, that would be the IND number I have used (right?)

I forgot to mention that we could not get any type of visa in Canada either because we are going to Calgary and the British High Commission only issues visas in Ottawa despite having offices throughout the country. Calgary is a 4-hour plane ride from Ottawa (country being a bit bigger than the UK), so going there is not really an option because it would cancel out on the savings of not doing it here, especially as we only intend to go for a 1 week stay (because of Uni and work commitments).

The example of the person who brought children and a visa at airport is encouraging. There is still a difference though in that our baby was born here, not sure how much that affects the situation, but some I suspect. My fear is that we would get to the airport to come in and the immigration officer would get out of hand, especially in this paranoid immigration time now, and threaten to send us back or something crazy like that. Just can't contemplate crazy scenarios like that when you have a little baby.

Does anybody know of any situation where the baby that entered was born in the UK and got a visitor visa upon entry?

Thanks.

[jes2jes]

ukcanadababy
I have had a thought through this overnight and consulted someone on this issue. Your best bet and chance whilst you are in the country is to contact the IND to sort out a dependant visa for your child. The above would have applied to you if your child was born whilst you were away in Canada and was now entering. Since your baby was born in the UK and the parents are subject to immigration control, the child too would be subject to the same immigration control as yourselves. This wouldn't be an issue if children born to foreign nationals in the UK qualify for automatic citizenship like in the US and Canada.
Please do make an appointment with the IND PEO (public enquiry office) and go in for a visa or make a postal application since you have time until you travel in September.
All the best and sorry if I gave you too much hope in the begining.
Thanks to all for your kind contribution.

[ukcanadababy]

This is just an update with a happy ending on the matter in case someone is searching for same/similar information in the future.

We received advice from UKCOSA (the international student advice centre in the UK) that we should be able to come back in and the baby would be given a visitor visa at the airport upon entry. They adviced that we take documents to allow us to prove that we would not overstay and that we had the means to support the baby while here (bank statement, letter of enrolment at university, contract for my partner, rental agreement, etc.). UKCOSA did not agree that the baby need a student dependent visa as we were not planning to stay longer than our current visa allows us to and because she was born here. As it happened, we had to show nothing upon entry, the officer simply asked what we were doing in the UK, how long we intended to stay and then took some time (probably filling out a form of some sort) and stamped the baby's passport with a permission to enter and remain until the same time that we are allowed to stay (end of January 2007) and let us through.

Also, the UKCOSA people also mentioned not to believe the Croydon advice line as the people answering the phone have had very little training and quite often do not know what they are talking about. I would say this is an important piece of information for others in general. Best to ask people who are accostumed at giving advice regarding these matters.

So, thanks to all for your efforts to help. This story had a good ending and I hope this update may help others seeking through the archives at some point.

By the way, our trip to Canada was very good too and the baby travelled well.

[ukcanadababy]

Also, I forgot to mention that after receiving the UKCOSA advice, I called Croydon again and changed my question. Instead of asking what kind of visa I needed, I said: "I understand the baby can come in with a visitor visa, is this correct? and if so, what would I need to show upon entry?". At that point, the advice line person said to take the same documents that UKCOSA suggested we take.

So, this also suggests to me, that Croydon will answer the question depending on how you ask it. So, be careful!

That is all.

[ppron747]

Glad it all went well, UK Canada Baby...
You've also added fuel to my long-held theory that so-called "help" lines are sometimes Hindrance Lines