Zambrano - Applying for a Visa from outside the State

[ImmigrationLawyer]

Has anyone been granted a visa or is anyone applying for a Visa to enter Ireland and reside here with an Irish citizen child? I note the policy previously on the INIS website advising people to apply to their nearest Irish Embassy has been taken down. Does anyone have a copy of this?

I have heard anecdotally that visa applications from parents of Irish children outside the State have been refused.

In an answer to a PQ on 18 May the Minister indicated that applications from people who have "left the state of their own accord" will not "meet the Zambrano criteria". I would question whether this is correct.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/05/18/00018.asp

[dodo123]

Has anyone been granted a visa or is anyone applying for a Visa to enter Ireland and reside here with an Irish citizen child? I note the policy previously on the INIS website advising people to apply to their nearest Irish Embassy has been taken down. Does anyone have a copy of this?

I have heard anecdotally that visa applications from parents of Irish children outside the State have been refused.

In an answer to a PQ on 18 May the Minister indicated that applications from people who have "left the state of their own accord" will not "meet the Zambrano criteria". I would question whether this is correct.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/05/18/00018.asp

immigrationlawyer,If the total number of application is 929 as quoted by minister and the staff is nine.Then what is delaying them from giving anwsers to people?And from this statement the minister is going against his own words.The previous notice on the inis website has disappeared and this should have something to do with this dail staement.

[ImmigrationLawyer]

But the Dail statement backs up the previous statement doesn't it? It does not seem that the Minister is reversing his previous policy, as some people have said. If they have been able to deal with 100 applications in 2 months (which includes all the initial setting up of procedures etc) then they should get all applications dealt with in the next few months, I would have thought. It is the people outside the State I am concerned about.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I note the policy previously on the INIS website advising people to apply to their nearest Irish Embassy has been taken down. Does anyone have a copy of this?

Do you have any extracts (complete phrases?) from it? When was it from? An old URL by any chance?

[acme4242]

old URL
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PB11000004

European Court of Justice Judgment in the Zambrano case

The European Court of Justice Judgment in the Zambrano case, delivered on 8th March, 2011, ruled that Member States are precluded from refusing a third country national upon whom his minor children, who are European Union citizens, are dependent, a right of residence in the Member State of residence and nationality of those children, and from refusing to grant a work permit to that third country national, in so far as such decisions deprive those children of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights attaching to the status of European Union citizen. In Ireland, this ruling refers to the non EEA parents of Irish citizen minor children.

Arising from this Judgment, the Department’s Repatriation Division will, over the coming weeks, be examining all cases where a link to the Zambrano Judgment has been identified to see if such cases meet the Zambrano criteria. Where the Zambrano criteria is met, all other things being equal, permission to remain in the State will be granted, for a specified period, of a nature as will enable such parent(s) to work in the State without an Employment Permit or to set up in any legitimate business or profession without seeking the permission of the Minister.

This Judgment may be particularly relevant to the following categories of third country national:

1. parents of an Irish citizen child or children who are awaiting a decision in their case under Section 3 of the Immigration Act 1999 (as amended),
2. parents of an Irish citizen child or children who have current permission to remain in the State on the basis of Stamp 2 or Stamp 3 conditions and
3. parents of an Irish citizen child who have been deported or who have left the State on foot of a Deportation Order.

Persons referred to at (3) above will have to apply to the relevant Irish Embassy or Consulate in their own country of origin for a visa to return to this State and they will, at that point, be required to produce documentation which shows a clear link to the Zambrano Judgment.

As a matter of public policy, the Department will not be applying the terms of the Zambrano Judgment to third country parent(s) of an Irish citizen child or children who have been convicted of serious and/or persistent criminal offences.

For those parents of an Irish citizen child or children who feel that they might be in a position to meet the criteria laid down in the Zambrano Judgment, they should be aware that, in addition to documentary evidence being required from them, DNA evidence of a biological link to the Irish citizen child or children may also be required.

All correspondence in relation to the Zambrano Judgment should be sent to:

Repatriation Division
INIS
13-14 Burgh Quay
Dublin 2

27 April 2011

[Obie]

Minister Shatters never promised to provide a pathway to people who left the state on their own free will, and it might be argued that the ruling does not apply to them. However the reasoning behind the ruling does apply, if the children and their parents become destitute in a third country, or they are deprived from returning to the state. The rights as Union Citizen would be illusory, in those circumstances. No one is saying they should pay their ticket back to the state, but at least the parents of these children should be issued with a visa to facilitate the return of the Union citizen children to the state.

[fatty patty]

Minister Shatters never promised to provide a pathway to people who left the state on their own free will, and it might be argued that the ruling does not apply to them. However the reasoning behind the ruling does apply, if the children and their parents become destitute in a third country, or they are deprived from returning to the state. The rights as Union Citizen would be illusory, in those circumstances. No one is saying they should pay their ticket back to the state, but at least the parents of these children should be issued with a visa to facilitate the return of the Union citizen children to the state.

Interesting, do you think cases may be refused across EU on those basis...that the union citizen children are in school in their parent's non-eu country and doing fine so do not need EU/Zambrano protection.

[Obie]

Interesting, do you think cases may be refused across EU on those basis...that the union citizen children are in school in their parent's non-eu country and doing fine so do not need EU/Zambrano protection.

Some states like Denmark, UK or to a lesser extent Ireland that interprets EU judgements restrictively , might be inclined to make such assertions.

In my view, I don't think it will hold.

The whole point of Zambrano is to preserve the future right of those children to move within the memberstates when they are older, and this could only happen if they live within the community, and to make their rights as Union Citizen meaningful. Refusing to facilitate their parents entry into their state of origin will have an adverse effect on the same level as refusing their parents leave to remain, and forcing the whole family to relocate to a 3rd country.

They may want to argue that it applies only to parents living with their children in the memberstate of which they are national, and in which they are fully integrated, but i don't believe this will hold.

It will be wrong for any memberstate to do this. Perhaps if this scenerio that the OP stated, does exist and continue to arise without any remedy from the minister or courts , then further referral will be inevitable, especially if few more memberstates are minded to take such retrograde route.

[ImmigrationLawyer]

I agree. I would bet that many of the families who left "voluntarily" left because one or both of the parents were not granted unrestricted residency rights and so they found work in another country; ie not really voluntarily. Also, if the parents can exercise choice of country of residence on behalf of the child in leaving, surely they can exercise that right to come back? I would argue Zambrano does cover these situations.

[9jeirean]

I agree. I would bet that many of the families who left "voluntarily" left because one or both of the parents were not granted unrestricted residency rights and so they found work in another country; ie not really voluntarily. Also, if the parents can exercise choice of country of residence on behalf of the child in leaving, surely they can exercise that right to come back? I would argue Zambrano does cover these situations.

Valid point. Most of the parents who left did so in lieu of becoming illegal or forcefully deported from the state. So it is absolutely wrong to assert that people left "voluntarily" at a time when they would have been deemed to have committed a crime if they chose otherwise. What choice were they given by the DOJ before their so called "voluntary" exit?

More pertinent question is what is the implication should the DoJ choses not to apply this to these cohort of parents?

9ieirean

[walrusgumble]

But the Dail statement backs up the previous statement doesn't it? It does not seem that the Minister is reversing his previous policy,

it seems that our government have communications problems.making statements and suggestions of promises without knowing the true nature of the cases.he should have said that he will review the cases and no more.make no other comment.smacks of ibc (bode - dimbo) again!its a bit too premature to even make this comment as well without even considering how long they left.it ignores dimbo.more taxpayers money to go down the drain with court cases.why can't politicans avoid grandstanding before policy is in place?if shatter actually knew the files while in opposition,he might have qualified his posturing while in opposition,he's learning now.never say anything which risks a u turn,or partial one

[walrusgumble]

Has anyone been granted a visa or is anyone applying for a Visa to enter Ireland and reside here with an Irish citizen child? I note the policy previously on the INIS website advising people to apply to their nearest Irish Embassy has been taken down. Does anyone have a copy of this?

I have heard anecdotally that visa applications from parents of Irish children outside the State have been refused.

In an answer to a PQ on 18 May the Minister indicated that applications from people who have "left the state of their own accord" will not "meet the Zambrano criteria". I would question whether this is correct.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/05/18/00018.asp

the cases you heard about,did the child go?was it just one parent,with the other having legal status(ie ibc 05) & stayed in ireland?if its the latter,how much would you bet the state will argue that the child is not at risk of being deported & can be looked after by other parent?

[walrusgumble]

Minister Shatters never promised to provide a pathway to people who left the state on their own free will, and it might be argued that the ruling does not apply to them. However the reasoning behind the ruling does apply, if the children and their parents become destitute in a third country, or they are deprived from returning to the state. The rights as Union Citizen would be illusory, in those circumstances. No one is saying they should pay their ticket back to the state, but at least the parents of these children should be issued with a visa to facilitate the return of the Union citizen children to the state.

what if it was a case (its not uncommon),that the child & one parent stayed in ireland & the other parent left?you may have a point,assuming that the latter parent had/kept some form of active role in the child's life.

[walrusgumble]

Minister Shatters never promised to provide a pathway to people who left the state on their own free will, and it might be argued that the ruling does not apply to them. However the reasoning behind the ruling does apply, if the children and their parents become destitute in a third country, or they are deprived from returning to the state. The rights as Union Citizen would be illusory, in those circumstances. No one is saying they should pay their ticket back to the state, but at least the parents of these children should be issued with a visa to facilitate the return of the Union citizen children to the state.

Interesting, do you think cases may be refused across EU on those basis...that the union citizen children are in school...

the child is also be a citizen of the parents country.there might have been little to stop the zambrano kid from doing so,yet the ecj ruled it out & never even considered the possibility.i doubt it would stick

[walrusgumble]

9j, voluntary in the context you refer to means,they are illegal already,an offence already committed .their choices are leave or face arrest & possible detention with certain forced removal.the advantage of the former is more dignified for the person and they may avoid a deportation order which can effect travel to other eu states.most parents of citizen children who actually lived in ireland got status via ibc 05 or the dimbo case in 2008.remember zambrano created this new right only this year.anyone else probably got their ibc revoked because of crime or more common,failed to comply with the continous residency in ireland(ie leaving voluntarily/freely for economic reasons,this is what doj mean!).alternatively the parent only joined the family in ireland,post 2005(such applications no longer considered),possibly 1 year + after the child's birth

[walrusgumble]

to make my last post clear:a majority of parents of irish citizen who came to ireland,at some point,pre 2005,got status in 2005 and if not,at least by the time dimbo was heard in 2008.when referring to these people as its likely,the dept are referring to those who later left ireland for far too long.they were expected to raise their child in ireland only.they left on their own accord freely,possibly for economic reasons.remember chen only came in 04 & zambrano in 11.the child will be allowed in any time,but parent must actually raise child here & not when it chooses if parent wants to stay.its unlikely many parents stayed away from ireland and not seek status at least by 08(unless they lived in a cave).any parent who didn't come,one would question whether they were bothered about their child or bothered about raising it in ireland

[Obie]

the child is also be a citizen of the parents country.there might have been little to stop the zambrano kid from doing so,yet the ecj ruled it out & never even considered the possibility.i doubt it would stick

It is absurd to suggest the CJEU should have taken such nonsense into consideration. The courts have no jurisdiction on the citizenship of a third country. Furthermore Mr Zambrano's children were never registered as Colombian.
Jessica and Deigo (zambrano children) has as much right as anyone holding the nationality of the memberstate, to reside anywhere in the memberstate of their choosing, in a dignified manner.

[walrusgumble]

the child is also be a citizen of the parents country.there might have been little to stop the zambrano kid from doing so,yet the ecj ruled it out & never even considered the possibility.i doubt it would stick

It is absurd to suggest the CJEU should have taken such nonsense into consideration. The courts have no jurisdiction on the citizenship of a third country. Furthermore Mr Zambrano's children were never registered as Colombian.
Jessica and Deigo (zambrano children) has as much right as anyone holding the nationality of the memberstate, to reside anywhere in the memberstate of their choosing, in a dignified manner.

first off, i was suggesting nothing.its an observation and a distiction to the different approach of ecthr. second the children would likely have colombian nationality as of birth due to their parents.third,the children can't pick ANY eu country,they will have to comply with chen and or directive 2004 ec to do .fourth,eu can remove non eu's.

[9jeirean]

9j, voluntary in the context you refer to means,they are illegal already,an offence already committed .their choices are leave or face arrest & possible detention with certain forced removal.the advantage of the former is more dignified for the person and they may avoid a deportation order which can effect travel to other eu states.most parents of citizen children who actually lived in ireland got status via ibc 05 or the dimbo case in 2008.remember zambrano created this new right only this year.anyone else probably got their ibc revoked because of crime or more common,failed to comply with the continous residency in ireland(ie leaving voluntarily/freely for economic reasons,this is what doj mean!).alternatively the parent only joined the family in ireland,post 2005(such applications no longer considered),possibly 1 year + after the child's birth

Firstly it is factually not correct to state or imply that every parent who departed the state were "illegal" at the time of their departure. Except if you have access to specific verifiable document to back that up. So how voluntary is it when people were threatened with arrests, humiliation and deportation? That said, you know very well that most, if not all of such parents would have made applications in one form or the other to remain in the state with the DoJ at one point or the other during their stay, correct? Well, Zambrano ruling is now saying very clearly that the department's stance not to grant such requests was illegal and such parent should have and should now be given right of residency and unrestricted assess to employment. Hence, there wouldn't have been any need for the so called voluntary exit in the first instance. Implicit in that is the fact that it can be argued that parents who chose not to make an application to the DoJ for permission to stay might have been discouraged by the fact that it was the department's policy not to grant such request at the time.


Look it, we could very well go the good old merry go round way a la going back to court bla..bla..bla and waste some more of tax payers money on a futile effort or do the honorable thing and grant the parent the right that the highest court in Europe had proclaim for them.

9jeirean

[Giri]

Hi,

The Zambrano judgement never spells about the present status of the parents of the EU citizen child. Wherever they may be!!! Even the total no of cases never reached 1000, the govt is unnecessarily worrying about the numbers. Their processing of applications are very slow.
I left the country in Sep 2009. Before that I had applied for my residency in Nov 2008. Until I left the country, my residency wasn't approved. When I left the country they almost approved my residency in July 2010. I missed my Long term residency. It may be voluntary but the Govt may still consider case by case even the cases like me may not be in hundreds. And also they can try to consider on the basis of previous residency in Ireland (no of years lived), parent's qualifications, work experience etc. They need skilled migrants for the future.

GIRI

[summer2011]

I have an Irish child currently living in UK.Can I apply under zambrano with my Irish child in Ireland?I understand that I do require to stay in Ireland which I am preparing to do so. How shall i start by doing this?Thank you

[ImmigrationLawyer]

Are you a visarequired national? If so the first step is a visa application.

[summer2011]

I do not required visa to enter Ireland.Thanks

[Giri]

But still they may want to see the valid residency stamp in your passport. Anyway I may try with the immigration officer in the coming weeks. I let you know all about the outcome of our talks.
But it is really hard to get job in Ireland and to be self self in Ireland.

GIRI

[summer2011]

Shall I get a stamp 3 as non-EEA visitor and get stamp changed from stamp 3 to 4 in ireland after that.