Evidence of Right to Work for Non-EU Wife

[Szmek]

Dear All,
Many of you may have read my other post "EEA Family Permit for Wife of dual British/Polish National' (http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=81185)

My wife has been granted the EEA Family Permit (valid from 19/07/2011 till 19/01/2012). Now we have a problem to convince the UKFPO (UK Foundation Programme Office) that she has the 'right to work' as required by them from 7th October 2011 until 1st August 2012.

Please advise me as to what evidence I can persuade the UKFPO with that she has a 'right to work' and can therefore accept offers of employment?

My previous email to them was as follows:

Dear Sir/Madam

My question regards the 'Right to Work in the UK':

My partner will have a right to work based on an EEA Family Permit. However when this status is given, it remains valid for only 6 months, until it is renewed or until it becomes registered in the UK as a Residence Card (valid for 5 years). The UKFPO requires that right of work should be valid from 7th October 2011 until 1st August 2012 (approximately 10 months).

Is the family permit sufficient evidence for you for right to work in the UK? Even though it's validity is 6 months (stated), renewal and further registration is not subject to further objections, which will be extended on arrival to the UK.

Kind regards

And received a reply like this:

Thank you for your email.

Applicants must submit evidence that their right to work is valid until 1 August 2012.

Whilst we appreciate that it is likely to be extended/renewed we will not be able to accept it, if it expires before this time.

In order to run a fair and national recruitment process we cannot make exceptions for individuals.

Best wishes

The Eligibility Team

Although the EEA Family Permit does expire on the 19.01.2012, I understand that her 'right of work' does not. According to the UKBA, non-EU family members are not required to apply for the 'Residence Card'. Although this would make life a lot easier, we will not be in the UK long enough during this summer for it to be processed. Therefore we must submit alternative evidence.

I think that it is a matter of persuading the UKFPO to accept:
- the current EEA Family Permit
- our marriage certificate and adequate translation
- my national identity documents
- a letter of declaration that I am also applying for the UK Foundation Programme 2012 and will be accepting offers of employment and hopefully starting work at the same as she is

Therefore I have formulated the following email to them. Please advise me if you think it is sufficient and/or correct:

Dear UKFPO

My query is a continuation of my earlier correspondence with you (shown below the email) regarding the 'right of work' in the UK for my wife.
I have consulted your previous response with immigration solicitors, and have been made aware that my wife (Belarusian national, Non-EU) has a 'right to work' in the UK based on her marriage to me (dual-British-Polish national) as I am also applying for the Foundation Programme 2012. This right is provided by European Law and further implemented into UK law.

The EEA Family Permit visa which has been issued to her is only valid for 6 months during which time it serves a purpose of Entry Clearance and evidence of her 'right to work', however once expired is does not revoke her 'right to work' in the UK and the UK Border Agency and the Home Office do not require her to provide documentation or register for a Residence Card in order to grant or extend her a 'right of work'. Therefore it is up to the employer to recognize this 'right to work' by virtue of being a family member of a EU national coming to work in the UK under European Law Directive/2004/38/EC. This can be validated by contact with either the UK Border Agency or the Home Office.

From what I understand, the 'right of work' is required for the UKFPO to validate that an applicant is eligible to accept offers of employment for the FY1 posts, and therefore avoiding situations where an applicant would be placed for an FY1 post, occupying the position and later causing problems by not having a 'right to work'. This not the case in our situation.

I urge you accept this information, which as mentioned before can be confirmed by either the UK Border Agency or the Home Office. Me and my wife are both applying for the Foundation Programme 2012 and it would be a very sad inconvenience and hindrance to her career if the UKFPO would reject her and she would have to wait an entire year to reapply for the FP2013.

I therefore hope that you would accept her current EEA Family Permit, our marriage certificate, my national identity documents and a declaration of my intent to travel and work with my wife for the entire time she is required to supply any evidence.

Thank you, I hope that you consider this information and I await your confirmation

This email needs to go out this Monday, so please be helpful. I already appreciate everything I have gathered from this forum, and I hope that you I can get a little bit more advice. Thank you all!

[nonspecifics]

A residence card is not compulsory, but as you know, not having one can make life difficult cos of the paperpushers.

"Family members

If you are a family member of an EEA national you may be able to work in the UK without restriction so long as the family member is ‘exercising a Treaty right in the UK’. Generally, this means that they are either employed, self-employed, self-sufficient or a student. You may not have this right if the family member is a Bulgarian or Romanian national.

If you are married to an EEA national then they are one of your family members. A family member of an EEA national can also be the parent, grandparent or child under 21 of the EEA national, or their spouse or civil partner.

If the EEA national is in the UK as a student, only their spouse, civil partner or dependent children can be family members."

source:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ ... /DG_181870

If you are on the Foundation Programme are you working? Or self-sufficient student?

If you are working then you are exercising Treaty Rights. Self-sufficient student then also you are also exercising Treaty Rights. Your exercising Treaty Rights is the proof your spouse also has the right to work.

If you are going to be working or otherwise exercising Treaty Rights during the time your wife will be on the course, report them to the EU commision for discriminating against an EU national exercising Treaty Rights.

And point out you will also take legal action for financial compensation if your complaint is upheld.

It is unreasonable to expect someone to guarantee the future.

Assure them That all you can do is guarantee that if your wife ever lost her right to work she would report it, as failure to do so would mean she would be on the course illegally.

You can show them the Govt.'s business advice site which confirms your wife's right to work.

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/ac ... =RESOURCES

Maybe you can refer them to:

Sponsorship and Employers helpline: tel: 0300 123 4699 so they can confirm that your wife does not need any permission to work.

[Jambo]

I think you should try avoiding using words such as "visa", "expire" and "renewal" in the letter as they don't really reflect the EU regulations. I would be more firm in stating her right to work in the UK and quoting the Home Office website stating that she does not require any documents from the Home Office to prove her rights.
I would add a paragraph which says that if they refuse to acknowledge her rights to work in the UK, that could be a unlawful treatment of her application.
I would also call the UKBA Employer helpline and ask for their advice. You can then write in the letter that you spoke to the Home Office and they confirmed that she is not legally required to obtain proof of her right to work in the UK.

Did you try to talk with the UKFPO over the phone? as the exchange of emails could last for ever without any positive outcome.

[Jambo]

Not sure I got the correct application form but the Eligibility Application Form states:

Evidence of your right to work in the UK.

You must have the right to work in the UK as a doctor in training to be considered fully eligible for appointment to the National Foundation Programme. Proof that you have the right to work in the UK must remain valid until at least 1 August 2012, when the National Foundation Programme begins. If your visa page states family member of EEA National, you must provide a marriage certificate.

Non-EEA Citizens (excluding Swiss nationals) who have the right to work in the UK
I am a citizen of a country outside the EEA and have provided a photocopy of the front cover of my passport and the page(s) containing my personal details; including nationality, photograph, date of birth, signature, date of expiry and biometric detail plus ONE of the following:

* A photocopy of any passport page that indicates my visa status
* A photocopy of both sides (front and back) of the Biometric card issued by UK Border Agency showing that you have the right to work
* A photocopy of Home Office/UK Border Agency documents indicating that I have the right to work in the UK.

So it seems they understand the EU regulations, they just need a little push in the right direction.

Good luck.

[Szmek]

Thank you for your posts.

From nonspecifics:

You can show them the Govt.'s business advice site which confirms your wife's right to work.

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/ac ... =RESOURCES

Maybe you can refer them to:

Sponsorship and Employers helpline: tel: 0300 123 4699 so they can confirm that your wife does not need any permission to work.

Thank you for this contact details. I will be calling them to confirm that they can state she has a 'right to work' and I can also forward the details to the UKFPO.

If you are on the Foundation Programme are you working? Or self-sufficient student?

The Foundation Programme is a post-degree training programme (internship) for doctors to become fully licensed. In fact it is a job, with normal salary. But the application process is a national recruitment which begins with Eligbility (for non-UK Medical School applicants) and proceeds to Application forms, scoring and references during October 2011-January 2012, followed by allocation to jobs in various places in the UK. Once you are allocated, the NHS Trust responsible for that area approach the applicant with employment details around March 2012. The job actually starts in August 2012. Up until this time, me and my wife will be studying in our last year of Medical School in Poland (until approximately June 2012). However the 'right of work' must be present for the entire time the application process is ongoing (during which time we will be studying in Poland).

From Jambo:

Did you try to talk with the UKFPO over the phone? as the exchange of emails could last for ever without any positive outcome.

I wish I could, however they dont provide any contact details for a phone conversation. I believe that they would be jammed by a huge surge of phone calls from various applicants all over the world, who wish to come and work as doctors in the UK.

I would also call the UKBA Employer helpline and ask for their advice. You can then write in the letter that you spoke to the Home Office and they confirmed that she is not legally required to obtain proof of her right to work in the UK.

I think this is a very good idea. Thank you.

Not sure I got the correct application form but the Eligibility Application Form states:

Yes this is the application form that we must fill out. You quoted the exact passages that are relevant to us. The email that was sent to us was before this form for 2012 was available online. I believe they may have amended it, to include those that benefit from EU legislation.

But don't you think it is strange that they state: "If your visa page states family member of EEA National, you must provide a marriage certificate." - because the EU legislation also provides for couples/partners who have been in a durable relationship. (?)

[toabetterchange]

Very interesting topic.

One of the requirements for the application of these Medical Programmes are to be in a provisional registration. correct?

I am asking cos I am in a similar situation and need some clarification if you can.

I am an Overseas Dentist (Family member of EEA) qualified outside the EEA.

I am searching for the application of Dental Foundation Programmes and found:

Eligibility to undertake LDFT or DVT Programmes:

In order to undertake a funded place in Dental Vocational Training in the United Kingdom, you must have full GDC registration. In the case of overseas dentists this means that you must have a primary dental qualification that
is registerable by GDC that has been obtained in the UK.


Overseas Dentists

Overseas dentists are those who, regardless of where they obtained their primary dental qualification, are not nationals of the European Economic Area (EEA).

Overseas dentists who meet the following criteria
may now also be eligible:

-Are EEA nationals or family members of EEA nationals (other than a UK national), and

-Have a qualification that is recognised by the GDC for this purpose but has been obtained outwith the UK

You may be eligible for full registration by completing the Overseas Registration Examination (ORE), if you:


-Are not a family member of an EEA national (other than a UK national), and

-Have a qualification that is recognised by the GDC for this purpose but has been obtained outwith the UK

It is a bit confusing for me to undersand what this means, I kindly ask if you or anyone in the forum can clarify it,

The Programme mentions you must have full GDC registration and a primary dental qualification that is registerable by GDC that has been obtained in the UK.

But in the other(new) criteria says : may now also be eligible:

-Are EEA nationals or family members of EEA nationals (other than a UK national), and

-Have a qualification that is recognised by the
GDC for this purpose but has been obtained outwith the UK

Does this last criteria mean I dont need to have full registration, only a qualification that is recognised not registerable ?

[Jambo]

I wish I could, however they dont provide any contact details for a phone conversation. I believe that they would be jammed by a huge surge of phone calls from various applicants all over the world, who wish to come and work as doctors in the UK.

I would try to call GMC Cardiff office on 029 2050 4060 or the building reception on 029 2050 4000 and ask to get transferred to the programme office. Not sure this would work as this is a Regus building where they rent out office space on a temporary basis so the actual programme office might be a virtual one.

[vinny]

- a letter of declaration that I am also applying for the UK Foundation Programme 2012 and will be accepting offers of employment and hopefully starting work at the same as she is

Her right to work is derived from your exercising treaty rights as a jobseeker.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

When there are problems, this is the sort of thing it is very useful to get Solvit involved with: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/

But be warned, they have no ability to force change, and they can be slow (10 weeks?), and sometimes they do not seem to want to get involved.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

My understanding is as follows...

Degrees done within Europe should always be recognized in other member states. Degrees from other places may or may not be recognized.

And Eu citizens and their non-EU family members should always be able to work and participate if their degrees are recognized.

But if an EU or a non-EU family member of an EU gets a degree from an otherwise unknown school in lower slabonia (or where-ever), then then it depends a lot on whether the program is recognized.

[toabetterchange]

When there are problems, this is the sort of thing it is very useful to get Solvit involved with: http://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/

But be warned, they have no ability to force change, and they can be slow (10 weeks?), and sometimes they do not seem to want to get involved.

Thanks for the link, many cases has been solved.

[toabetterchange]

My understanding is as follows...

Degrees done within Europe should always be recognized in other member states. Degrees from other places may or may not be recognized.

And Eu citizens and their non-EU family members should always be able to work and participate if their degrees are recognized.

But if an EU or a non-EU family member of an EU gets a degree from an otherwise unknown school in lower slabonia (or where-ever), then then it depends a lot on whether the program is recognized.

What is your understanding in this text?

In which country did you obtain your professional qualification?

Directive 2005/36/EC applies if you obtained your professional qualification in one of the 30 countries mentioned in question 3.

If you obtained your professional qualification in a third country 8, Directive 2005/36/EC does not apply to a Member State receiving an application for recognition of your professional qualification for the first time within the European Union ('the first application for recognition').

For example: You are a French national who has obtained a professional
qualification as a speech therapist in Canada. The 'first' recognition of this
qualification in an EU country (for example, France) is not covered by Directive 2005/36/EC but by the national legislation of that country.


Directive 2005/36/EC applies only as of the second application for recognition if the conditions for benefiting from this recognition are met.

For example: After obtaining recognition for your Canadian speech therapist diploma in France, you want to work in Belgium.

http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qua ... ide_en.pdf

Does this mean that the recognition of qualifications may or may not be recognised in the first country you enter, but it may be recognised in a second country?


Directive 2005/36/EC

Third country diplomas

• No automatic recognition !
• But for first recognition in the EU minimum training
requirements must be complied with and checked by
host Member State - Article 2 (2) Dir 2005/36
• If second recognition, Member State obliged to examine application
whilst taking into account all training and professional
qualifications obtained within or outside EU

[nonspecifics]

Apologies if going off the original thread slightly.

Not sure if this is of any use, but

The Open University in the UK has a website page where you can check all the worldwide academic institutions which they recognise offer an approved standard of teaching for previous study accreditation to their degree courses.

I don't know if other UK organisations work from that same list, but anyway,

Find it here: http://www3.open.ac.uk/credit-transfer/ ... index.shtm

[toabetterchange]

Apologies if going off the original thread slightly.

Not sure if this is of any use, but

The Open University in the UK has a website page where you can check all the worldwide academic institutions which they recognise offer an approved standard of teaching for previous study accreditation to their degree courses.

I don't know if other UK organisations work from that same list, but anyway,

Find it here: http://www3.open.ac.uk/credit-transfer/ ... index.shtm

Thank you. I'll check it.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Does this mean that the recognition of qualifications may or may not be recognised in the first country you enter, but it may be recognised in a second country?

Which countries you enter and the order you enter them is likely irrelevant. Though I have not read through the document in detail. You need to do that reading, maybe a couple of times, to fully understand it.

But to answer your question, think of it this way: The UK has long historical ties to Canada. So, as a made up example, the UK might recognize a Medical Degree from the University of Saskatoon (or whatever), since they know the institution and trust it. That same University degree may be totally 100% unknown in Romania and so not recognized.

[fysicus]

The main criterion for the GMC (General Medical Council) to recognize a degree is that the medical school (university) that issued it must be on a list (maintained by the WHO, World Health Organisation) of reputable institutions (the Avicenna directory).
see http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registrat ... cation.asp

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Ok, I think I understand how this works.

Lets say you study and qualify as a doctor in some obscure training program in Singapore. You then move to the UK with your EU citizen partner or spouse.

On arrival in the UK, you go to work and jump through all the hoops to have your doctor qualifications recognized by the UK. You may have luck and they specifically know about the particular training program in Singapore that you did. At this stage there is no special preference given to your out-of-EU qualifications, but you can legally reside and work in general in the UK, and you have full access to post-study training that you need to do in the UK. You become a full Doctor in the UK.

Now, for some crazy reason you decide to leave the UK for the sunny riots of Greece, along with your EU citizen partner. At this point the Directive you linked to means that the UK recognition of your qualifications, also applies in Greece. You do not need to go through a full recognition of your Singapore studies. They are required to recognize your UK status, even if they have never heard about the original Singapore place you studied.

This is at least the general idea. There may be things incorrect in what I just wrote, but it gives a broad picture of the intent.

Make sense and agree with what you understand?

[toabetterchange]

Ok, I think I understand how this works.

Lets say you study and qualify as a doctor in some obscure training program in Singapore. You then move to the UK with your EU citizen partner or spouse.

On arrival in the UK, you go to work and jump through all the hoops to have your doctor qualifications recognized by the UK. You may have luck and they specifically know about the particular training program in Singapore that you did. At this stage there is no special preference given to your out-of-EU qualifications, but you can legally reside and work in general in the UK, and you have full access to post-study training that you need to do in the UK. You become a full Doctor in the UK.

Now, for some crazy reason you decide to leave the UK for the sunny riots of Greece, along with your EU citizen partner. At this point the Directive you linked to means that the UK recognition of your qualifications, also applies in Greece. You do not need to go through a full recognition of your Singapore studies. They are required to recognize your UK status, even if they have never heard about the original Singapore place you studied.

This is at least the general idea. There may be things incorrect in what I just wrote, but it gives a broad picture of the intent.

Make sense and agree with what you understand?

Completely agree with all you have written. Thank you once again for the ideas, you really understand this

Well I must say I have been searching for this information weeks ago but still the doubts.

Yes I may be have good luck or not to have the recognition from my country but that needs to be assesed carefully from them( the assesment panel).

Read this:

Registration with the General Dental Council depends upon certain criteria.

Exempt persons(family members of EEA) or UK nationals with enforceable community rights who have qualified overseas and whose qualification has not been accepted in another EEA Member State. The GDC can only register an individual whose basic dental training meets relevant European standards.

That is the category I fall , I need to wait for the answer for 3 months and send them translations of my studies from all the degree , we will see...


What do you mean by"you have full access to post-study training that you need to do in the UK", I was checking some universities about post stuides, I am not sure if I will be treat as an international student or from the EEA as family member?

One problem here I was reading: Overseas student rates would be applicable to most candidates unless they have lived in the UK for a number of years. ??

[alekos]

One problem here I was reading: Overseas student rates would be applicable to most candidates unless they have lived in the UK for a number of years. ??

From what I understand, you must have legally resided in the EU as a family member for three years prior to studying.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Registration with the General Dental Council depends upon certain criteria.

Exempt persons(family members of EEA) or UK nationals with enforceable community rights who have qualified overseas and whose qualification has not been accepted in another EEA Member State. The GDC can only register an individual whose basic dental training meets relevant European standards.

That is the category I fall , I need to wait for the answer for 3 months and send them translations of my studies from all the degree :? , we will see..

I would not be surprised if it takes that long!

I agree you have to meet the residence requirements if you want to take university course and pay lower fees.

What I was actually thinking about though is, for instance, Residence programs for Doctors. Used to be called in the UK Junior House Officers and Senior House Officers. Basically practical experience supervised by working in a hospital. It is not really studying at a university, but it is part of rounding out your experience one you have officially "graduated" but you are not yet good enough to practice on your own.

The may be similar programs in dentistry

[toabetterchange]

Exactly, thats what I am trying to understand, I have asked them about these type of "programmes or work" if I am allowed to do them, Im waiting for the answer

I have checked this:

Senior House Officer (SHO) posts

The SHO post is a training post in UK hospitals. These posts are changing to Dental Foundation Posts. If you have entered the UK on a Tier 1 Visa which states that you are not eligible for doctor or dentist training posts, you would not be able to apply for one of these posts. If you have entered the UK on a Tier 2 Visa you will need to have a job offer. The employers will need to demonstrate that there was no suitably qualified EEA citizen able to accept the post before the post can be offered to an overseas citizen. The employer will be required to sponsor you for the post.

Employer sponsorship is for a specific post and for a specified period of time.

If you are successful and are offered a post, the employer will be your sponsor and issue you with a sponsor number and you will then re-enter the UK to take up the post.

I cant find the information about family members of EEA ?, other thing, do you know if these (SHO) are still in availability, cos I understand they have chenged the name for the name of Dental Foundation Programmes? and also the requirements for these courses are full registration with the Council, diferently from the Medical Council that you can do them with temporary registration and then be full registered. (I think so)

http://www.rcseng.ac.uk/fds/nacpde/over ... ments.html

Another fear, they may require IELTS before start anything

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Family members of EEA citizens have the exact same rights as EEA citizens. And they BOTH have the same rights as UK citizens. That is the way it works. Keep the rule in mind. It is simple.

[toabetterchange]

Ok, I think I understand how this works.

Lets say you study and qualify as a doctor in some obscure training program in Singapore. You then move to the UK with your EU citizen partner or spouse.

On arrival in the UK, you go to work and jump through all the hoops to have your doctor qualifications recognized by the UK. You may have luck and they specifically know about the particular training program in Singapore that you did. At this stage there is no special preference given to your out-of-EU qualifications, but you can legally reside and work in general in the UK, and you have full access to post-study training that you need to do in the UK. You become a full Doctor in the UK.

Now, for some crazy reason you decide to leave the UK for the sunny riots of Greece, along with your EU citizen partner. At this point the Directive you linked to means that the UK recognition of your qualifications, also applies in Greece. You do not need to go through a full recognition of your Singapore studies. They are required to recognize your UK status, even if they have never heard about the original Singapore place you studied.

This is at least the general idea. There may be things incorrect in what I just wrote, but it gives a broad picture of the intent.

Make sense and agree with what you understand?

Let's say I'm not eligible for full registration and neither work in the UK, then I start a post graduate qualification in the UK for 3 years ( I know that even if I study poststudies and I'm allowed to work under supervision for a temporary period for the post study) , later I decided to go to Greece to work(they woudnt care about my primary degree, they just care about the studies in the UK) there for let's say 3 years. One thing even if I get post qualification in the UK I wont be allowed to work with full registration there, only during the studies. So:

Do you think if I return to the UK with experience from Greece after 3 years plus the studies from UK. Does this means that I have the chance to be fully registered in the UK cos I worked in Greece?

Im just thinking.

Read this :

Full registration without assessment of qualifications is available to the following people:

Exempt persons(EEA/family members of EEA)or UK nationals with enforceable community rights, with a non-scheduled qualification from the EEA, but who have been practicing as a dentist in another EEA Member State for at least 3 consecutive years in the past 5 years and the dental qualification has been verified as complying with the training requirements of article 34 of EC Directive 2005/36/EC.

What is a non-scheduled qualification?

Could you please read this

http://www.rcseng.ac.uk/fds/nacpde/over ... posts.html

Thank yyou

[turuturu]

My wife is an European National (British) with a dentist degree from a third country (Venezuela), she has obtained the official recognition of her title in Spain in 2009, "in accordance with the provisions of the Article 2.2 of the directive 2005/36/EC, and also proved more than 3 years professional practice in Spain in accordance with the Article 3.3 of the directive 2005/36/Ec", taken from a official certificate given by the competent authorities in Spain.

article 2.2 Each Member State may permit Member State nationals in possession of evidence of professional qualifications not obtained in a Member State to pursue a regulated profession
within the meaning of Article 3(1)(a) on its territory in accordance with its rules. In the case of professions covered by Title III, Chapter III, this initial recognition shall respect the minimum training conditions laid down in that Chapter.

Article 3.3 Evidence of formal qualifications issued by a third country shall be regarded as evidence of formal qualifications if the holder has three years' professional experience in the
profession concerned on the territory of the Member State which recognised that evidence of formal qualifications in accordance with Article 2(2), certified by that Member State.
From the articles above:

1- )Can de General Dental Council denied her application, following the Directive 2005/36/Ec ?

2.-) Can her qualification be recognized directly as her degree has been recognized for another European Country, and she has a certificate from the competent body from Spain, stating ” She has been working in Spain for more than 3 years and comply with the Annex V, point 5.3.2 of the Directive on recognition of professional qualifications ?

many thanks in advance for help and advice anyone can provide

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

turuturu, please do not post in multiple threads