Recognition of diplomas by GDC via Directive 2004/38/EC

[toabetterchange]

I was wondering:

If "recognised" qualification is of no relevance then what stops a (family member of an EEA citizen) quack with a medical / dental qualification from a "one room medical institution / university in a non-EEA state" to obtain a dental / medical licence to practice in any of the EEA member states?

Next time I need to visit a doctor / dentist, I better check first where he qualified from and if he has trained in an EEA member state!

What is the problem with a dentist or doctor that qualified in a nonEU country and has not trained in a EU one????? and

What did you mean by :

"one room medical institution / university in a non-EEA state" ?????

[toabetterchange]

Also in this point does not say that the third country national MUST have a EU degree for the recognition of his/her qualifications... the third country qualifications are included.



8. APPLICATION OF DIRECTIVE 2005/36/EC TO THIRD COUNTRY CITIZENS

Community rules on the recognition of professional qualifications (including rules on the
recognition of third country qualifications) are applicable to third country citizens
fulfilling the requirements of Directive 2004/38/EC.

[toabetterchange]

sushdmehta :

I asked Your Europe Advice and they answered the following:

Under current EU mutual recognition rules contained in Directive 2005/36, recognition of qualifications in dentistry is mandatory only if it was acquired by an EU citizen in a Member State of the EU. In order to enjoy the benefit of these rules, the citizen must be registered and entitled to practice as a dentist in one of the EU member states. If the citizen’s original qualification is from outside the EU, the person must have practiced dentistry for at least three years in the EU country that recognized the original qualification.

In addition, non-EU family members of EU citizens with a right to residence under Directive 2004/38 also have a right to apply for recognition on the basis of Article 24 (equal treatment) when they live in an EU country other than their country of origin.

Therefore, in order for you to benefit from the EU rules on recognition of professional qualification and obtain registration with the GDC as a dentist in the UK without the need for taking the PLAB/IELTS test, you would need to fall within one of the following categories:

(1) You are a British citizen and you are admitted to practice as a dentist in another EU country; OR

(2) You are an EU citizen and you are admitted to practice as a dentist in another EU country; OR

(3) You are the family member (whatever your nationality) of an EU citizen (other than a British citizen) living in the UK and you are admitted to practice as a dentist in another EU country; OR

(4) You are the family member (whatever your nationality) of a British citizen returning to the UK after having exercised a right to free movement in an EU country other than the UK and you are admitted to practice as a dentist in another EU country.

In addition, under the Directive, regulatory authorities can decide to recognize non-EU qualifications. We understand that the GDC also extends the right to register in the UK to dentists without taking the PLAB/IELTS who obtained their qualification outside the EU provided that they have EC rights.

As an EEA citizen, your partner would have EC rights to reside in the UK. As her spouse, you would then be able to derive EC rights as her family member. We are unsure if you are registered as partners or not. If you are in a registered partnership, then you will have automatic rights to reside with your partner. In order to derive rights as an unregistered partner, you will need to apply to the Home Office’s UKBA to recognise your status as a partner.

We can therefore confirm that, if you are in a registered partnership or you are able to obtain recognition of your status as a family member by the UK authorities, you would derive EC rights were you to live with your partner in the UK and as a result, you should be able to apply for registration with the GDC and be exempt from the need to take the PLAB/IELTS tests.

Yours sincerely,

Your Europe Advice


ORE tests they meant.

Who is right or who is wrong?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

toabetterchange,

I have tried to explain clearly. You, or any EU citizen, or any UK citizen would be treated the same if they had the education and qualifications that you have.

Is that part clear? Do you understand why that is done that way?

If that is clear, then there must be another problem. If so, can you tell me what that is in 2 or 3 sentences? I must say I am lost right now!

[toabetterchange]

toabetterchange,

I have tried to explain clearly. You, or any EU citizen, or any UK citizen would be treated the same if they had the education and qualifications that you have.

Is that part clear? Do you understand why that is done that way?

If that is clear, then there must be another problem. If so, can you tell me what that is in 2 or 3 sentences? I must say I am lost right now!

Honestly Directive I am lost too!

[chursy]

Look what the member said :

Just to let you know, I have now managed to obtain an application form from gmc and will be attaching the supporting documentation requested to support my case.I confirmed this with gmc that in order to obtain the exemption you donot need to hold an EU degree!!!! exemption is very much in place !! Will let u know how I progress with this once I send the forms etc

This is true, gmc confirmed this to me. Not sure about the dental council.

Thanks

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You, or any EU citizen, or any UK citizen would be treated the same if they had the education and qualifications that you have.

Is this part clear to you?

Do you understand why that is done that way?

Do you know of any situations where this is not done?

[toabetterchange]

You, or any EU citizen, or any UK citizen would be treated the same if they had the education and qualifications that you have.

Is this part clear to you?

Do you understand why that is done that way?

Do you know of any situations where this is not done?

It is not clear for me,

Directive, what is the meaning of EQUAL TREATMENT for you?

The Directive 2004/38 states that there must be equal treatment for the EU and the family with regards to enter the internal labor market, it is not my fault that my profession is regulated by an authority, this authority should authorize the person who has EC rights in order to practice the profession,


EU and their family must be treated as if they were the same nationals of that EU country so they can exercise their rights like employment.

There must not be any kind of discrimination when the EU and their family want to exercise the right of WORK


So I cannot exercise my right of employment because my profession is managed by an organization?

This organization should authorised/recognise the qualifications so I can work...

Thanks

[toabetterchange]

Look what the member said :

Just to let you know, I have now managed to obtain an application form from gmc and will be attaching the supporting documentation requested to support my case.I confirmed this with gmc that in order to obtain the exemption you donot need to hold an EU degree!!!! exemption is very much in place !! Will let u know how I progress with this once I send the forms etc

This is true, gmc confirmed this to me. Not sure about the dental council.

Thanks

Thanks for confirming.

[toabetterchange]

Equal treatment and other rights

As well as the above rights which you can enjoy on the grounds of your having exercised the right to move and reside freely, you also get a whole set of additional rights to make the freedom of movement meaningful and useful.

The most important of these rights is the right to equal treatment which is the corollary to the right of free movement and residence

The Directive recalls this right and provides that Union citizens and their family members residing in the territory of the host Member State enjoy equal treatment with the nationals of that Member State within the scope of the Treaty and extends this right to family members.

Thanks to the principle of equal treatment you are entitled to most of the advantages and benefits as granted by the host Member State to its own nationals.

Under the Directive your family members, irrespective of their nationality, are entitled to take up employment or selfemployment in the host Member State. It does not matter whether you work, study or just reside there, your family members can start their economic activity with the same paperwork as nationals.

What is my economic activity?

It is dentistry, and Is it not fair that I cannot start my economic activity because of national laws. Where is the European law?

The right of freedom of movement is not meaningful and useful if these kind of restrictions exist

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You, or any EU citizen, or any UK citizen would be treated the same if they had the education and qualifications that you have.

You are right. This means that you can not just show up and automatically start practicing.

It is important to understand why, and I am sure you already do.

You are in a Regulated profession, primarily because lives can be directly at stake (and for historical reasons).

I suspect you would agree that you would not want me to attend the "Bob T Jones Online School of Youtube Medicine (our moto: study from home and then 2 get good paid job in surgery)" and then show up in your community, put up my diploma, and start practicing. I first want to evaluate their qualifications and then decide to allow them to practice.

Similarly you would not want Jane, a Scot, who left the UK to attend medical school at Big Bill's university in XYZ (fill in the country) to return to Scotland and start practicing without first evaluating her qualifications and seeing if they are "fit to practice".

So that is why.

Just because you are the family member of an EU citizen does not exempt you from this evaluation of qualifications. And for the same reason that it does not exempt Jane (the Scot) from this evaluation of qualifications.

Does this make sense? If so then I will move on to the next point.

[toabetterchange]

You, or any EU citizen, or any UK citizen would be treated the same if they had the education and qualifications that you have.

You are right. This means that you can not just show up and automatically start practicing.

It is important to understand why, and I am sure you already do.

You are in a Regulated profession, primarily because lives can be directly at stake (and for historical reasons).

I suspect you would agree that you would not want me to attend the "Bob T Jones Online School of Youtube Medicine (our moto: study from home and then 2 get good paid job in surgery)" and then show up in your community, put up my diploma, and start practicing. I first want to evaluate their qualifications and then decide to allow them to practice.

Similarly you would not want Jane, a Scot, who left the UK to attend medical school at Big Bill's university in XYZ (fill in the country) to return to Scotland and start practicing without first evaluating her qualifications and seeing if they are "fit to practice".

So that is why.

Just because you are the family member of an EU citizen does not exempt you from this evaluation of qualifications. And for the same reason that it does not exempt Jane (the Scot) from this evaluation of qualifications.

Does this make sense? If so then I will move on to the next point.

Directive,

Remember that architecture is another regulated profession and does not treat patients.

I agree with you with the evaluation of my qualifications, so they can assess the studies, but why I can not even have the right of a "compensation measure" in the case my studies miss any "part" so I can see that the EU country is treating me as another same EU national, and as a result I can be trained or take an aptitude test or whatever measure so I can improve/pass the "missing part" and access to the labor market.

Why do they have to discriminate and make you sit for the whole dental exams? it means all my studies are nothing?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

OK, so we are agreed on WHY, and now we can move on.

So if ANYWHERE in the EU currently directly recognizes your qualifications, you can move there with your partner, get registered pretty directly, and start to work there. You can at that point move back to the UK and the recognition will also be accepted by the UK. (This is at least my understanding of it, and I am open to correction).

Or you can stay in the UK and get your qualification recognized here.

Do you agree with what I wrote in this?

[toabetterchange]

Yes.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Sorry for this format, but I think it is easier since there are a number of different issues that quickly get muddled together.

OK, next step...

Can you please explain what compensation measures are.

Which applicants can request compensation measures?

[toabetterchange]

Sorry for this format, but I think it is easier since there are a number of different issues that quickly get muddled together.

OK, next step...

Can you please explain what compensation measures are.

Which applicants can request compensation measures?

This compensation measures are only for EEA nationals with an EU diploma, Why I can't have at least this "kind of right" ? where is the equal treatment ?


29) What decision can the competent authority take?

The competent authority may decide, after examining your file, to check your
qualifications and after this check to authorise you to provide the service or to prohibit you from providing the service. (For example: You are prohibited from practising in your Member State of establishment) or to require you to take additional measures (see question 30)

If you are practising a profession in trade, industry or business that involves a potential threat to public health or safety, the competent authority may check whether you have the required years of professional experience to benefit from automatic recognition in the framework of the establishment system (see questions 45 to 47). If not, it should authorise you to provide the service. No additional check is possible and you may not be obliged to take any further action.

30) What additional measures can the competent authority make you
take and in what circumstances?

The competent authority may make you take additional measures if there are
substantial differences between your training and the training of the host Member State and these differences are liable to be harmful to the health or safety of the beneficiaries of the service.

Before making you take additional measures, it must check whether your professional experience, your further training and any other training you may have taken could make up for these differences

If you cannot provide proof of this, then the competent authority may require you to do an aptitude test or a very short traineeship.
If you fail this, then you should have the opportunity to retake the test or to do the traineeship again.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

What is the source of the idea of "compensation measures" for graduates of an EU program? Is it an EU Directive?

[toabetterchange]

Directive 2005/36/EC

http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qua ... ide_en.pdf

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

ok, so again we should ask WHY is this being done?

In general there is free movement between EU member states, and mutual recognition of qualifications. In general, a German doctor can move to the UK, register, and start practicing.

The idea is that each EU member state should have a high quality qualification system, and that once somebody is recognized, they can also practice in other member states without hassle.

But in some cases, especially with new entrant member states to the EU, that medical training is excellent in some areas, and generally deficient in other areas. I believe it is because of this that member states are allowed to do this selective evaluation of a particular area.

But you are not part of this system, as you have not got a qualification from an EU source.

You are not being discriminated particularly in Europe. If you are a Doctor (not sure about dentists but I suspect it is similar) and try to move to Canada, you would have to go through a whole qualification process, generally redoing from their Residence on. Canada sadly has a lot of very qualified senior doctors who can no get a place in the re-qualification system or do not want to redo all that, and so end up driving taxis or starting medical related businesses for which their experience helps but they do not need to be directly registered.

[nonspecifics]

I don't know anything about this subject, but I had one thought which is a long shot, but anyway:

If I understand it right, Directive mentioned that if one EEA country recognises a qualification then others must do that too.

I'm not sure if the OP is from South America, but anyway, say it's Colombia.

Maybe somewhere like Spain would have closer links due to Spain speaking the same language and being a former colonial ruler there.

Maybe they would be more willing to recognise qualifications from former colonies?

If Spain accepted it then the other EEA countries would need to accept it.

[toabetterchange]

ok, so again we should ask WHY is this being done?


But in some cases, especially with new entrant member states to the EU, that medical training is excellent in some areas, and generally deficient in other areas. I believe it is because of this that member states are allowed to do this selective evaluation of a particular area.

You have answered WHY I also should have this "selective evaluation of a particular area"

Not all the EU countries have a harmonised training requirements/same syllabus between them.

Like someone said, in another countries are better doctors/dentists than in the same EU.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Not all the EU countries have a harmonised training requirements/same syllabus between them.

Like someone said, in another countries are better doctors/dentists than in the same EU.

I absolutely agree with both statements. Not all the EU member states have harmonized requirements, and it is very clear that there are also very very qualified medical/dental professionals in lots of other parts of the world, and world class local training that produced those good doctors.

But the EU has a lot on it's plate just dealing with the free movement of such professionals who have studied within the EU. Even that is a big challenge, and it is amazing how much smoother it is working over time. It would have been a lot harder to have studied in Germany and to then work in the UK in the 1970s!

As the previous poster said, if you can it is worth figuring out if any of the existing EU member states would automatically recognize your qualifications, or would do it on the basis of an accelerated process. It might be worth moving there for a while to get the recognition before moving to the place you want to be. I am not sure where you studied. But if there are, for instance, traditional historical links to a particular an EU member state, then your chances are better.

[chursy]

That is correct, however not sure about the GDC.

I did confirm with GMC and they did say that EU degree wasnt required for the exemption

[toabetterchange]

That is correct, however not sure about the GDC.

I did confirm with GMC and they did say that EU degree wasnt required for the exemption

The GDC cannot be different than The GMC under European law.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The GDC cannot be different than The GMC under European law. :roll:

Why do you say that?