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Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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EUspouse82
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Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:01 pm

Post by EUspouse82 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:57 pm

walrusgumble wrote:
EUspouse82 wrote:
IrishTom wrote:How does this failed asylum seeker have a PPS number?

Why was an illegal/failed asylum seeker allowed marry?

Why was he not deported with haste once his asylum claims were rejected?

Pertinent questions.
Are you for real? Do you know his immigration history?

Are you having laugh? Why was wasn't he deported in haste? What do you mean by that exactly? Have you ever heard of term 'Due process' ? and hello he is married to an Irish citizen.

It seems this forum is been infiltrated by lovey...and by the way..how are your family members doing in Canada/US/ Australia/ England etc etc ?

The moral of the story...cop on!
lovey? your assuming that his family in canada etc are illegal or have not entered fair n squarely.he might be a plank but the history of monife's husband is accurate,just the way he says it, is the problem.your look at your own country on how it deals with illegals before ranting "lovey"

I am not ranting Walrus. I assume he is Irish based on his username, and it is quite convenient for Irish people to overstay their visas in other countries e.g. US, Australia, Canada, NZ etc and by way of public policy be asking/begging for clemency on behalf of Irish (( undocumented)) which is a technical terminology for a person who is an economic asylum seeker . Ireland is currently hoping that her citizens emmigrate ( which they have done in abundance) to other countries so they can balance the sheets.

Before you say I should look at my country (assuming you have a clue where I am from), maybe you should critically access your country's attitude towards immigrants. It takes an average of 3 years to get a decision on citizenship applications, your immigration department is so inept, lacks cohesion, embarrases themselves on a constant basis and disgracefully cannot formulate policies without copying their hated neighbors (UK).

I would honestly advice you to stop editorialising and get a grip,you hate immigration into your country and you have persistently shown this through your posts, stop hyper-ventillating and get real.

Ireland is only exising as an economy because you are in the EU and due to the numerous mechanisms attached therein, immigration is one of them . You cannot have your cake and eat it!..

Monifé
Senior Member
Posts: 653
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:42 pm
Location: Dublin

Post by Monifé » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:38 am

IrishTom wrote:Why should I have compassion for failed asylum seekers who falsely claim asylum, cost the taxpayer tens of thousands of euro in the process and then marry to circumvent the legal process?

The mind boggles.

:?
Because they are not just asylum seekers, they are human beings.

You talk of it as if every single asylum seeker is an economic migrant, that all their claims fail and that they ALL marry to circumvent the legal process.

You are tarring them all with one brush.

You know my story, we could have got married nearly 2 years ago, but we didn't. We wanted to wait until we were ready. We got married because we love each other. That is the first and foremost reason.

So take your bullsh*t generalisations and please f**k off!!
beloved is the enemy of freedom, and deserves to be met head-on and stamped out - Pierre Berton

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:19 am

Monifé wrote:
IrishTom wrote:Why should I have compassion for failed asylum seekers who falsely claim asylum, cost the taxpayer tens of thousands of euro in the process and then marry to circumvent the legal process?

The mind boggles.

:?
Because they are not just asylum seekers, they are human beings.

You talk of it as if every single asylum seeker is an economic migrant, that all their claims fail and that they ALL marry to circumvent the legal process.

You are tarring them all with one brush.

You know my story, we could have got married nearly 2 years ago, but we didn't. We wanted to wait until we were ready. We got married because we love each other. That is the first and foremost reason.

So take your bullsh*t generalisations and please f**k off!!
Rapists & Murders are also human beings what is your point. Members of Fianna Fáil are also human beings, it don't mean we have to treat them favourably.

No body is tarring "them all with the one brush". You get permission to enter the country to apply for asylum, that is the only reason for being allowed into the country without a need for documents and self finance. It's a well known and accepted fact that people from certain countries ARE economic migrants!!! Have you even heard the claims?

No disrespect to you, but, whether you like it or not, it is likely, that Irish Tom is correct on this assessment. I am willing to accept that you and him are genuine, but your previous posts, would suggest that you got married in order to help your loved one. It implies that you may not have married so quickly if you could have got him status another way. ( I fully accept your genuine, as you were willing to give up your Irish Citizenship for him - I hope he knows that he has a good one)

Never seem odd how mothers who obtained status via eg IBC 05, have had no problem going back to their country of origin for holidays, yet, the sole reason that they were allowed into this country in the first place was because on an alleged problem back in their country. Hmmm , all of a sudden every thing is alright

They are found to be unwell founded ( It is very safe to say, in light of applications in Europe, most Nigerian cases are riddled with inconsistencies and lies. Or at least, don't match the criteria for asylum), they are expected to be returned, once it is established that its safe to send them home. They are not expected to be able to stay or side track the system by simply and in many cases (not all) conveniently side track the system by getting married for having a child.

Whether you like it or not, a majority of citizens are fed up with being taken for a rid and have the asylum system abused by people who genuinely don't need it. If you want to come to Ireland, by all means do, but only come if you are wanted, ie you get a work permit. (ie non EU people who have no EU family)

Like it or not, there is little, facts wise that Tom is wrong about. It is not dearly beloved to raise those issues nor is it nationalistic , if you believe in law and order. Those two tags tend to be thrown at people by others who are not capable of being objective and have their own agendas. To be honest, you would question someone's intelligence (and I throw that to a comment made by op earlier) when that is the only response one can give to comments, that are actually factually and lawfully correct.

However, Irish Tom's type of talk is not fit for this board and should be taken else where. The reason for my response monife, is if you are going to respond to him, don't get all self serving. You can't pull the wool over everyone's eyes.



Tom, move on

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:57 am

EUspouse82 wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:
EUspouse82 wrote:
IrishTom wrote:How does this failed asylum seeker have a PPS number?

Why was an illegal/failed asylum seeker allowed marry?

Why was he not deported with haste once his asylum claims were rejected?

Pertinent questions.
Are you for real? Do you know his immigration history?

Are you having laugh? Why was wasn't he deported in haste? What do you mean by that exactly? Have you ever heard of term 'Due process' ? and hello he is married to an Irish citizen.

It seems this forum is been infiltrated by lovey...and by the way..how are your family members doing in Canada/US/ Australia/ England etc etc ?

The moral of the story...cop on!
lovey? your assuming that his family in canada etc are illegal or have not entered fair n squarely.he might be a plank but the history of monife's husband is accurate,just the way he says it, is the problem.your look at your own country on how it deals with illegals before ranting "lovey"

I am not ranting Walrus. I assume he is Irish based on his username, and it is quite convenient for Irish people to overstay their visas in other countries e.g. US, Australia, Canada, NZ etc and by way of public policy be asking/begging for clemency on behalf of Irish (( undocumented)) which is a technical terminology for a person who is an economic asylum seeker . Ireland is currently hoping that her citizens emmigrate ( which they have done in abundance) to other countries so they can balance the sheets.

Before you say I should look at my country (assuming you have a clue where I am from), maybe you should critically access your country's attitude towards immigrants. It takes an average of 3 years to get a decision on citizenship applications, your immigration department is so inept, lacks cohesion, embarrases themselves on a constant basis and disgracefully cannot formulate policies without copying their hated neighbors (UK).

I would honestly advice you to stop editorialising and get a grip,you hate immigration into your country and you have persistently shown this through your posts, stop hyper-ventillating and get real.

Ireland is only exising as an economy because you are in the EU and due to the numerous mechanisms attached therein, immigration is one of them . You cannot have your cake and eat it!..

You are ranting an raving, when you raise comments with no relevancy to the topic. You also are quick, like others, (maybe its the fact that your through ID is temporarily hidden) to make comments that may have no grounds or proof. Its only a small proportion of Irish Citizens abroad that have illegal status (remember, Irish have a huge diaspora) It will be said again and again, what another country does with its foreign citizen's (including the illegal Irish, which I am sure there are plenty of other nationalities) There is absolutely no point bringing it up, as it does nothing for your case.

You assumed because he is Irish, he will likely have relations etc that are illegal in another country. That is what you said. Again, it has nothing to do
with your case. Irish are not the only ones! Just remember, when the Irish did campaign in America in the 1980-1990's, on immigration amensty, other nationalities also got the benefits, on the back of Irish Activities. But ask your self,why do the Irish actually get a more favorable ear from the politicians of another country? It has no relevancy to you.


Secondly, you are in a very strong case, so you have little to worry about. One way or another you will get your status renewed. It is just, that you don't, from the information give, appear to be entitled to PR due to wife's activities, which for some reason you won't disclose fully. With regard to the Zambrano - Deccie issue, I was referring to the EU Citizenship of your wife and not you, which might limit Zambrano, its not relevant at this time, so there is no point discussing it on this thread, therefore I won't discuss the nuances. (FOr the 4-5th time, your status is irrelevant)

Thirdly, if you are going to comment on my past posts, don't start misquoting me or assuming. My previous posts would show that I have no problem with Immigrants, regardless of who they are, coming to Ireland, so long as its done, at all times lawfully and by the correct procedure. It is my understanding, that the type of cases that I am critical with, are in absolutely in no way related to the facts of your case.

If you are going to point fingers, why did you leave your wife's country of origin, Britain, with its superior education system (well University wise) and better prospects for work?

Where is the evidence that the 3 year delay is an intentional to punish Irish people? If anything, most Irish Citizens would like to see a 3 year suspension of that policy until we improve things. The UK is probably the worse country to compare to Ireland regarding the delays on citizenship. They give citizenship out like confetti. Great. Yet you will hear them (even respectful commentators) complain that there is no real respect or loyalty or sense of Britishness (in any form) coming from them. Where in the legislation says, you have a right to citizenship simply by meeting the 5 years rule? Where is the rule that says that you can't have a annual quota in decisions (which is seems clearly that that it was they are doing). How do you know whether or is not a coherent plan ? You don't work in the Department and you don't know the real reasons for the delay. I am not saying, however, that the 3 year delay is right or fair.

More importantly, what has Irish Citizenship got to do with your case. You are looking for residency. Secondly I asked about how countries deal with ILLEGALS, so why bring up naturalization ? You can't get it if your illegal. Your fishing?

Evidence of the Irish hating the UK? Dislike of the military forces and some of their politicians does not mean a hatred of British people and their culture. Secondly, I would take with a pinch of salt, alot of what Irish people say about the British. You seem to only read and listen to History for the Simpletons (like most Irish Citizens and Foreign Commentators)

"I would honestly advice you to stop editorialising and get a grip,you hate immigration into your country and you have persistently shown this through your posts, stop hyper-ventillating and get real. "


I would honestly shut your mouth, learn to know the different between categories of immigration, learn to read what is actually said in posts and not what you like and learn what the law says (something very few people here can quote accurately , as oppose to what suits them) You would not dare say that in public or to my face, because it would be proven that you are basing it on false grounds , in a court of law. So why do it on the internet? You have a problem with knowing the difference between fair objective comment and the stuff that people like Irish Tom Rants out.

You have no made argument or response to either what I said or to what patty said, solely, along the lines of "oh you are wrong , Solvit says, my superiors say (despite having no expertise)


"Ireland is only exising as an economy because you are in the EU and due to the numerous mechanisms attached therein, immigration is one of them . You cannot have your cake and eat it!"

What has that got to do with your case? The decision to refuse you PR is correct under the law provided by the EU.

You will, in some for get further status and rightly so

. Many EU countries have began to question the validity of the Courts on Free movement issues, and their maybe signs that the European Courts may not take such a judicial activist approach to this part of the law in the future.

Immigration, is a tiny minute of a concern right now for most EU countries. Its the banking sector that is at concern, in Europe.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Posts: 7121
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Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:02 am

walrusgumble wrote:Many EU countries have began to question the validity of the Courts on Free movement issues, and their maybe signs that the European Courts may not take such a judicial activist approach to this part of the law in the future.
This is interesting. Any interesting articles or threads which I can read for background information?

walrusgumble
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Location: ireland

Post by walrusgumble » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:22 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:Many EU countries have began to question the validity of the Courts on Free movement issues, and their maybe signs that the European Courts may not take such a judicial activist approach to this part of the law in the future.
This is interesting. Any interesting articles or threads which I can read for background information?

Have you access to the European Law Review & Common Market Review journals?

Cases: The obvious being McCarthy, then Forster 2008 (as a somewhat overruling on cases like D'Hoop/Bidar - i.e. right to social payments, in light of legislative retraction) Deccie might be next (I only say might, without holding my breath)


It is by the way, only my own opinion, and not me saying " this is what the law says"

Monifé
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Posts: 653
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Location: Dublin

Post by Monifé » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:56 am

walrusgumble wrote:The reason for my response monife, is if you are going to respond to him, don't get all self serving.
It is hard to be rational sometimes, when your emotions get the better of you.

It is almost impossible to have a debate with IrishTom when he has a one set mind (deport them all, go live in your spouses home country etc) and clearly no understanding with his sweeping generalisations.

I'll leave it at that.
beloved is the enemy of freedom, and deserves to be met head-on and stamped out - Pierre Berton

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:27 pm

Monifé wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:The reason for my response monife, is if you are going to respond to him, don't get all self serving.
It is hard to be rational sometimes, when your emotions get the better of you.

It is almost impossible to have a debate with IrishTom when he has a one set mind (deport them all, go live in your spouses home country etc) and clearly no understanding with his sweeping generalisations.

I'll leave it at that.
I know, but I will always be happy to rain on their parade, when they (anyone) make groundless and false comments). Ignore him. You come across as alot smarter than that , so you have no excuse in allowing yourself in lowering your self to his level.

IrishTom
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Post by IrishTom » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:24 pm

My level? :lol:

FFS!

Feel free to point out any inaccuracies in my posts.

EUspouse82
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Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:01 pm

Post by EUspouse82 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:28 pm

walrusgumble wrote:
EUspouse82 wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:
EUspouse82 wrote:
Are you for real? Do you know his immigration history?

Are you having laugh? Why was wasn't he deported in haste? What do you mean by that exactly? Have you ever heard of term 'Due process' ? and hello he is married to an Irish citizen.

It seems this forum is been infiltrated by lovey...and by the way..how are your family members doing in Canada/US/ Australia/ England etc etc ?

The moral of the story...cop on!
lovey? your assuming that his family in canada etc are illegal or have not entered fair n squarely.he might be a plank but the history of monife's husband is accurate,just the way he says it, is the problem.your look at your own country on how it deals with illegals before ranting "lovey"

I am not ranting Walrus. I assume he is Irish based on his username, and it is quite convenient for Irish people to overstay their visas in other countries e.g. US, Australia, Canada, NZ etc and by way of public policy be asking/begging for clemency on behalf of Irish (( undocumented)) which is a technical terminology for a person who is an economic asylum seeker . Ireland is currently hoping that her citizens emmigrate ( which they have done in abundance) to other countries so they can balance the sheets.

Before you say I should look at my country (assuming you have a clue where I am from), maybe you should critically access your country's attitude towards immigrants. It takes an average of 3 years to get a decision on citizenship applications, your immigration department is so inept, lacks cohesion, embarrases themselves on a constant basis and disgracefully cannot formulate policies without copying their hated neighbors (UK).

I would honestly advice you to stop editorialising and get a grip,you hate immigration into your country and you have persistently shown this through your posts, stop hyper-ventillating and get real.

Ireland is only exising as an economy because you are in the EU and due to the numerous mechanisms attached therein, immigration is one of them . You cannot have your cake and eat it!..

You are ranting an raving, when you raise comments with no relevancy to the topic. You also are quick, like others, (maybe its the fact that your through ID is temporarily hidden) to make comments that may have no grounds or proof. Its only a small proportion of Irish Citizens abroad that have illegal status (remember, Irish have a huge diaspora) It will be said again and again, what another country does with its foreign citizen's (including the illegal Irish, which I am sure there are plenty of other nationalities) There is absolutely no point bringing it up, as it does nothing for your case.

You assumed because he is Irish, he will likely have relations etc that are illegal in another country. That is what you said. Again, it has nothing to do
with your case. Irish are not the only ones! Just remember, when the Irish did campaign in America in the 1980-1990's, on immigration amensty, other nationalities also got the benefits, on the back of Irish Activities. But ask your self,why do the Irish actually get a more favorable ear from the politicians of another country? It has no relevancy to you.


Secondly, you are in a very strong case, so you have little to worry about. One way or another you will get your status renewed. It is just, that you don't, from the information give, appear to be entitled to PR due to wife's activities, which for some reason you won't disclose fully. With regard to the Zambrano - Deccie issue, I was referring to the EU Citizenship of your wife and not you, which might limit Zambrano, its not relevant at this time, so there is no point discussing it on this thread, therefore I won't discuss the nuances. (FOr the 4-5th time, your status is irrelevant)

Thirdly, if you are going to comment on my past posts, don't start misquoting me or assuming. My previous posts would show that I have no problem with Immigrants, regardless of who they are, coming to Ireland, so long as its done, at all times lawfully and by the correct procedure. It is my understanding, that the type of cases that I am critical with, are in absolutely in no way related to the facts of your case.

If you are going to point fingers, why did you leave your wife's country of origin, Britain, with its superior education system (well University wise) and better prospects for work?

Where is the evidence that the 3 year delay is an intentional to punish Irish people? If anything, most Irish Citizens would like to see a 3 year suspension of that policy until we improve things. The UK is probably the worse country to compare to Ireland regarding the delays on citizenship. They give citizenship out like confetti. Great. Yet you will hear them (even respectful commentators) complain that there is no real respect or loyalty or sense of Britishness (in any form) coming from them. Where in the legislation says, you have a right to citizenship simply by meeting the 5 years rule? Where is the rule that says that you can't have a annual quota in decisions (which is seems clearly that that it was they are doing). How do you know whether or is not a coherent plan ? You don't work in the Department and you don't know the real reasons for the delay. I am not saying, however, that the 3 year delay is right or fair.

More importantly, what has Irish Citizenship got to do with your case. You are looking for residency. Secondly I asked about how countries deal with ILLEGALS, so why bring up naturalization ? You can't get it if your illegal. Your fishing?

Evidence of the Irish hating the UK? Dislike of the military forces and some of their politicians does not mean a hatred of British people and their culture. Secondly, I would take with a pinch of salt, alot of what Irish people say about the British. You seem to only read and listen to History for the Simpletons (like most Irish Citizens and Foreign Commentators)

"I would honestly advice you to stop editorialising and get a grip,you hate immigration into your country and you have persistently shown this through your posts, stop hyper-ventillating and get real. "


I would honestly shut your mouth, learn to know the different between categories of immigration, learn to read what is actually said in posts and not what you like and learn what the law says (something very few people here can quote accurately , as oppose to what suits them) You would not dare say that in public or to my face, because it would be proven that you are basing it on false grounds , in a court of law. So why do it on the internet? You have a problem with knowing the difference between fair objective comment and the stuff that people like Irish Tom Rants out.

You have no made argument or response to either what I said or to what patty said, solely, along the lines of "oh you are wrong , Solvit says, my superiors say (despite having no expertise)


"Ireland is only exising as an economy because you are in the EU and due to the numerous mechanisms attached therein, immigration is one of them . You cannot have your cake and eat it!"

What has that got to do with your case? The decision to refuse you PR is correct under the law provided by the EU.

You will, in some for get further status and rightly so

. Many EU countries have began to question the validity of the Courts on Free movement issues, and their maybe signs that the European Courts may not take such a judicial activist approach to this part of the law in the future.

Immigration, is a tiny minute of a concern right now for most EU countries. Its the banking sector that is at concern, in Europe.

Walrus, one observation and I think you should consider it. Your posts are usually very disjointed, as a result it is difficult to follow your train of thought.

Firstly, I was replying you on this thread which has absolutely nothing to do with the other thread I started OR my personal circumstances. I really would not take most things you say seriously after you questioned the fact that an EU PR application cannot be made six months before the expiration of the 5 year residence permit, you argued falsely in different posts without providing any reference/ evidence to back up your erroneous stand.

You are correct when you say I replied to you using advice/statements from SOLVIT, why wouldn't I? They are more knowledgable than you in terms of EU laws, you are just a person on a faceless medium with your own agenda/beliefs...I came to seek advice on this forum because I believe that experential contents/ inputs can be very useful. I have got a lot of beneficial advice which I appreciate, but you come across as uncouth, very opinionated and most disturbingly, you obsessively quote laws you have no basic understanding of.

Based on Irish Tom's reply to this thread, which I found offensive, I replied him and as usual you took upon yourself to act as an advocate to say in your own words ' your look at your own country on how it deals with illegals before ranting "lovey" '

You have no idea what country I come from or how immigration policies are formulated or implemented in my country. Like you rightly acknowledged, I have a right to be in this country by law - as long as I want. My observation/opinion is based on the dire state state of the Irish Immigration system, it is shambolic and that is pretty obvious.You came up with some abysmal comparison with the UK giving out citizenship easily, that is ridiculous!... they are not institutionally incompetent in respect to decision making like INIS...actually most parties including ICI/MRCI etc that consists of Irish people believe that applicants are treated unfairly.

I mentioned Irish emmigration because I think it is disingenious and presumptuous of Irish people ( Irish Tom, in this case) to be pontificating on why another Irish person ( Monife) cannot have her partner legally reside with her. For your information, Irish people in the UK are eligible to have their partners live in the UK via national immigration laws even without EU channels, realistically I wonder why they do this since there is no form of reciprocity.

You went on a rant about why I came to Ireland instead of staying in Britain...my answer- absolutely none of your business!...get over it. The most laughable part of your post is the British-Irish relationship, that is ridiculous...end of!

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:00 am

EUspouse82 wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:
EUspouse82 wrote:
walrusgumble wrote:lovey? your assuming that his family in canada etc are illegal or have not entered fair n squarely.he might be a plank but the history of monife's husband is accurate,just the way he says it, is the problem.your look at your own country on how it deals with illegals before ranting "lovey"

I am not ranting Walrus. I assume he is Irish based on his username, and it is quite convenient for Irish people to overstay their visas in other countries e.g. US, Australia, Canada, NZ etc and by way of public policy be asking/begging for clemency on behalf of Irish (( undocumented)) which is a technical terminology for a person who is an economic asylum seeker . Ireland is currently hoping that her citizens emmigrate ( which they have done in abundance) to other countries so they can balance the sheets.

Before you say I should look at my country (assuming you have a clue where I am from), maybe you should critically access your country's attitude towards immigrants. It takes an average of 3 years to get a decision on citizenship applications, your immigration department is so inept, lacks cohesion, embarrases themselves on a constant basis and disgracefully cannot formulate policies without copying their hated neighbors (UK).

I would honestly advice you to stop editorialising and get a grip,you hate immigration into your country and you have persistently shown this through your posts, stop hyper-ventillating and get real.

Ireland is only exising as an economy because you are in the EU and due to the numerous mechanisms attached therein, immigration is one of them . You cannot have your cake and eat it!..

You are ranting an raving, when you raise comments with no relevancy to the topic. You also are quick, like others, (maybe its the fact that your through ID is temporarily hidden) to make comments that may have no grounds or proof. Its only a small proportion of Irish Citizens abroad that have illegal status (remember, Irish have a huge diaspora) It will be said again and again, what another country does with its foreign citizen's (including the illegal Irish, which I am sure there are plenty of other nationalities) There is absolutely no point bringing it up, as it does nothing for your case.

You assumed because he is Irish, he will likely have relations etc that are illegal in another country. That is what you said. Again, it has nothing to do
with your case. Irish are not the only ones! Just remember, when the Irish did campaign in America in the 1980-1990's, on immigration amensty, other nationalities also got the benefits, on the back of Irish Activities. But ask your self,why do the Irish actually get a more favorable ear from the politicians of another country? It has no relevancy to you.


Secondly, you are in a very strong case, so you have little to worry about. One way or another you will get your status renewed. It is just, that you don't, from the information give, appear to be entitled to PR due to wife's activities, which for some reason you won't disclose fully. With regard to the Zambrano - Deccie issue, I was referring to the EU Citizenship of your wife and not you, which might limit Zambrano, its not relevant at this time, so there is no point discussing it on this thread, therefore I won't discuss the nuances. (FOr the 4-5th time, your status is irrelevant)

Thirdly, if you are going to comment on my past posts, don't start misquoting me or assuming. My previous posts would show that I have no problem with Immigrants, regardless of who they are, coming to Ireland, so long as its done, at all times lawfully and by the correct procedure. It is my understanding, that the type of cases that I am critical with, are in absolutely in no way related to the facts of your case.

If you are going to point fingers, why did you leave your wife's country of origin, Britain, with its superior education system (well University wise) and better prospects for work?

Where is the evidence that the 3 year delay is an intentional to punish Irish people? If anything, most Irish Citizens would like to see a 3 year suspension of that policy until we improve things. The UK is probably the worse country to compare to Ireland regarding the delays on citizenship. They give citizenship out like confetti. Great. Yet you will hear them (even respectful commentators) complain that there is no real respect or loyalty or sense of Britishness (in any form) coming from them. Where in the legislation says, you have a right to citizenship simply by meeting the 5 years rule? Where is the rule that says that you can't have a annual quota in decisions (which is seems clearly that that it was they are doing). How do you know whether or is not a coherent plan ? You don't work in the Department and you don't know the real reasons for the delay. I am not saying, however, that the 3 year delay is right or fair.

More importantly, what has Irish Citizenship got to do with your case. You are looking for residency. Secondly I asked about how countries deal with ILLEGALS, so why bring up naturalization ? You can't get it if your illegal. Your fishing?

Evidence of the Irish hating the UK? Dislike of the military forces and some of their politicians does not mean a hatred of British people and their culture. Secondly, I would take with a pinch of salt, alot of what Irish people say about the British. You seem to only read and listen to History for the Simpletons (like most Irish Citizens and Foreign Commentators)

"I would honestly advice you to stop editorialising and get a grip,you hate immigration into your country and you have persistently shown this through your posts, stop hyper-ventillating and get real. "


I would honestly shut your mouth, learn to know the different between categories of immigration, learn to read what is actually said in posts and not what you like and learn what the law says (something very few people here can quote accurately , as oppose to what suits them) You would not dare say that in public or to my face, because it would be proven that you are basing it on false grounds , in a court of law. So why do it on the internet? You have a problem with knowing the difference between fair objective comment and the stuff that people like Irish Tom Rants out.

You have no made argument or response to either what I said or to what patty said, solely, along the lines of "oh you are wrong , Solvit says, my superiors say (despite having no expertise)


"Ireland is only exising as an economy because you are in the EU and due to the numerous mechanisms attached therein, immigration is one of them . You cannot have your cake and eat it!"

What has that got to do with your case? The decision to refuse you PR is correct under the law provided by the EU.

You will, in some for get further status and rightly so

. Many EU countries have began to question the validity of the Courts on Free movement issues, and their maybe signs that the European Courts may not take such a judicial activist approach to this part of the law in the future.

Immigration, is a tiny minute of a concern right now for most EU countries. Its the banking sector that is at concern, in Europe.

Walrus, one observation and I think you should consider it. Your posts are usually very disjointed, as a result it is difficult to follow your train of thought.

Firstly, I was replying you on this thread which has absolutely nothing to do with the other thread I started OR my personal circumstances. I really would not take most things you say seriously after you questioned the fact that an EU PR application cannot be made six months before the expiration of the 5 year residence permit, you argued falsely in different posts without providing any reference/ evidence to back up your erroneous stand.

You are correct when you say I replied to you using advice/statements from SOLVIT, why wouldn't I? They are more knowledgable than you in terms of EU laws, you are just a person on a faceless medium with your own agenda/beliefs...I came to seek advice on this forum because I believe that experential contents/ inputs can be very useful. I have got a lot of beneficial advice which I appreciate, but you come across as uncouth, very opinionated and most disturbingly, you obsessively quote laws you have no basic understanding of.

Based on Irish Tom's reply to this thread, which I found offensive, I replied him and as usual you took upon yourself to act as an advocate to say in your own words ' your look at your own country on how it deals with illegals before ranting "lovey" '

You have no idea what country I come from or how immigration policies are formulated or implemented in my country. Like you rightly acknowledged, I have a right to be in this country by law - as long as I want. My observation/opinion is based on the dire state state of the Irish Immigration system, it is shambolic and that is pretty obvious.You came up with some abysmal comparison with the UK giving out citizenship easily, that is ridiculous!... they are not institutionally incompetent in respect to decision making like INIS...actually most parties including ICI/MRCI etc that consists of Irish people believe that applicants are treated unfairly.

I mentioned Irish emmigration because I think it is disingenious and presumptuous of Irish people ( Irish Tom, in this case) to be pontificating on why another Irish person ( Monife) cannot have her partner legally reside with her. For your information, Irish people in the UK are eligible to have their partners live in the UK via national immigration laws even without EU channels, realistically I wonder why they do this since there is no form of reciprocity.

You went on a rant about why I came to Ireland instead of staying in Britain...my answer- absolutely none of your business!...get over it. The most laughable part of your post is the British-Irish relationship, that is ridiculous...end of!

For your information (you sound incredibly arrogant there), I am well aware that Ireland and UK, long before the EU ever was considered, had a common immigration policy. SOme Brits still think they own us (lol) . It makes life easier too, considering the North. Moreover, there is a long history of Irish people over in the UK. As for no form of reciprocity, that is not true. British residents have a rights to vote in all (bar Presidency) elections, and are exception to the new rules on Irish Citizenship by birth. If I went over to the UK, I would be exercising my EU rights, so UK law is not relevant. But even if it was, yes, UK Immigration law is more lenient to Irish, but you are wrong to think that I would have it easy getting my non eu spouse who had no status or a deportation order, to stay in the UK. The same in Ireland,but a bit more harsher.

The issue with some people is the fact that failed asylum seekers are cutting corners and


What issue do you have with my comment on British - Irish relationship. I find it amazingly arrogant for an outsider to think that they have any authorized opinion on this. You have made gross generalizing comments, assuming that Irish people hate Britain. That is wrong, in relation to British People and Culture. There are some sore issues between them, but over all the relationship is excellent. You are to tell me that you think the latter sentence is not true?

I mentioned why you came, not because I am interested, I am not. I am simply pointing out the likelihood that you had immigration problems in UK. Your response is very tetchy, what is wrong did we hit a nerve? (None of my business by the way, but its a call for you to stop sounding all self serving)

I mentioned about your country, as I always do to other posters (whom I know where they are from) when I see generalized, unfair comments being made by delusional critics. I am not asking them to disclose this information (no surprise they don't) Its simply for them to bear in mind and ask them not to be so hypocritical and self serving, because they reek of dishonesty.



With regard to delays in citizenship, that is not an issue of Institutional Incompetence. It is an issue of the Department, under previous Ministers, trying to deter immigrants from applying for citizenship. My comparison with the UK is absolutely fair comment, they have sweet damn all assessments or risk assessments. It is given out like confetti and their is a huge lack of a sense of an United Britishness in that country (ie as in everyone shares common values and respect for the country and institution - it does not have to be a traditional sense of britishness but a new one - and before you are arrogant enough to say thats tosh, look at the people in British public life, can you say that they represent all the people?) Also , Britain can't be compared to Ireland on the basis of the wealth of resources available to the UK compared to Ireland, in dealing with cases.


As for Solvit, sweet jesus. Solvit and Commission are only too readily to denounce any act with looks like a breach of EU law, they are Federalists. The fact that most Member States share the interpretation of Article 16 clearly indicates that that it was they intended then they adapted this Directive. Solvit is a glorified, but better resourced and trained group of Citizenship Information Of Ireland. (You'd hardly take their word as bible would you?). You have provided no evidence you support your contention. Please cite exactly what Solvit have said. Did you disclose all information to them (I doubt it)

You are clinging onto an issue, which you have not proven by the way, that is not relevant to your case (I was wrong on one point, you had made your application within 2-3 months of expiry anyway). You refuse to face up to the expressed reason why you were refused. NOTHING that I have said on that issue is incorrect.


Listen I got alot of that guff from others in other matters. But I have been vindicated before by the Courts. Not one person then comes on record to say they were sorry to me after wards. I can't take anyone, despite case law to the contrary who believes that EU law applies (in your case you mentioned your time in the UK) when the EU citizen has not exercised their rights or believe that Adult Non EU's whose immigration status that they depend on their EU spouse, can be relied upon ;

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Post by walrusgumble » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:29 pm

http://www.pila.ie/bulletin/latestbulle ... nal-widow/

It seems rather perverse for the Union to accept that those who don't comply with article 7 can be deported, yet they can get permanent residency as per article 16, by your suggestion, if they don't have evidence of 5 years "legal" residency. How do you explain that contradiction?

It is also more perverse to suggest that an non eu person is legal even if the eu spouse (the person whom the non eu is dependent) is not legally exercising their rights. (I don't for one second suggest that the wealth of non eu person can't be considered when assessing whether spouse is self sufficient - case law suggests it can. But how can you take that into account when that non eu person's source of that income turns out to be illegal? (because their spouse is no longer exercising rights and none of them can avail of the exceptions in the legislation)

Again, I make no comment about whether or not the Minister was correct in your case. I believe he might be wrong. I asked you to confirm evidence. If you have done this, then this discussion ends, you have rights, and we all would say go and get them, and best of luck. But instead you get tetchy and run your mouth off, especially when you don't like what you hear.

Lassal case
http://www.bailii.org/eu/cases/EUECJ/2010/C16209_O.html
http://www.bailii.org/eu/cases/EUECJ/2010/C16209.html

"(15) For that purpose, the directive provides for three different forms of residence rights: first, a right of residence for up to three months;

(16) second, a right of residence for more than three months;

(17) and third, the right of permanent residence. The right of permanent residence is laid down in Chapter IV of the Directive; the substantive provisions concerning the acquisition of such a right are to be found in Section I of that chapter, in Articles 16 to 18 of the directive.
According to the first sentence of Article 16(1) of the directive, Union citizens who have resided legally for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State are to have the right of permanent residence there. The acquisition of a right of permanent residence is thus dependent on two conditions. First, the Union citizen must have resided continuously in the host State for five years. Second, that period of residence must have been lawful."

"As a preliminary point, it should be observed that the acquisition of the right of permanent residence provided for in Article 16 of Directive 2004/38 requires a continuous period of five years’ legal residence in the host Member State."



Dias case
http://www.bailii.org/eu/cases/EUECJ/2011/C32509.html especially paragraphs 42-54 and 58


ziolkowski
http://www.bailii.org/eu/cases/EUECJ/2011/C42510_O.html


(Most of this cases, factually are different to you, but the principles are relevant)

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:33 pm

walrusgumble: I like the law related content of your post, and the provided links. Thank you for that!

everyone: please, there is no need for personal attacks. Life is too short and it, quit frankly, blurs and ruins any legal discussion or constructive argument that we might otherwise have.

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Post by IrishTom » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:30 am

Lets be honest. Irish people do not want non whites living in Ireland. The majority any way. EU laws cannot integrate a non white. Sad, but true.

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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:21 pm

IrishTom, as you say it is sad but true that there are dearly beloved in Ireland as well. But don't worry about it too much. They are usually a pretty pathetic bunch.

Do most EU citizens and their family members want to integrate? I am not sure. But kind of academic, since there is no need to do so. And if there are so many dearly beloved in Ireland as you indicate, than it is unlikely that EU citizens will even want to integrate. Why bother?

I personally have had very positive experiences in Ireland. The people that I have worked with seem open, smart, and not at all dearly beloved.

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Post by Casa » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:56 pm

IrishTom, you're already on 'Thin Ice'. Your posts have a dearly beloved element...which won't be tolerated on the forum. Please take this as a final warning.

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Post by walrusgumble » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:07 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:IrishTom, as you say it is sad but true that there are dearly beloved in Ireland as well. But don't worry about it too much. They are usually a pretty pathetic bunch.

Do most EU citizens and their family members want to integrate? I am not sure. But kind of academic, since there is no need to do so. And if there are so many dearly beloved in Ireland as you indicate, than it is unlikely that EU citizens will even want to integrate. Why bother?

I personally have had very positive experiences in Ireland. The people that I have worked with seem open, smart, and not at all dearly beloved.
Irish Tom's comment is wide off the mark, in some ways. I have no time for it personally,

But I would say, that your comment would only give genuine reasons to those who believe that the whole multicultural dream has failed; (you see they and many think Europe is the white names home and each country share a common attitude / culture in certain things) a view shared by the French, utterly indirectly by Germany's Merkell and of course the "I hate everyone bar ourselves, but even then I hate Geordies/Scouse/Welsh/Scots" English. The French are not too crazy about things either (but hey those people come from their former colonies, nothing to do with EU - reap what you sow)

The issue is certainly not academic and ignoring it will only cause other public outbursts from people like Tom. Immigrants are expected to integrate, just the same as we EU's would be expected to integrate in their countries.

The race thing, the labeling I find funny in a sick way, because those who preach it more than likely come from countries where those countries are no better (without in any way commenting on that posters views)

All of these issues, of course, are not relevant here.

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Post by IrishTom » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:06 am

If my opinions and honest commentary is offensive then I ask for my account to be deleted.

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Post by Obie » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:31 am

IrishTom wrote:If my opinions and honest commentary is offensive then I ask for my account to be deleted.
I believe you are slowly heading in that direction.

If you have not got anything edifying or productive to share, perhaps you may wish to consider not saying anything at all.

Life is too stressful as it is, to have to deal with you aswell.

Sling your hook.

Monife, when i lived in Ireland, my sister claimed tax credit as a married woman, and his husband lack of stamp4 then, was not an issue at any point in time, and it shouldn't be in fact.It was fine, and never was an issue up to the time his residency was issued.

I loved the Irish people so much, they are open and carefree. They were great host, save for the INIS, and few lovey, drunkards on Social welfare.

I will never let the likes of Tom or other lovey on this thread, or the department of Justice, change my view of mainstream Irish people.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

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Post by IrishTom » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:48 am

No, its obvious that I have got to Obie and Monife with my commentary.

Monife seems like a darling girl.

Obie, meh.

But in saying that, I feel bad for annoying a female. So, I think that is fair if my account is deleted. My intention was never to annoy or hurt a good person. My intent was to call out the scum that abused the asylum system.

Peace.

Delete away.

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