Marriage Registration........ Spain,Ukraine,UK

levi13 · Post by **levi13** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:20 pm

Hello Members....I posted on here a few weeks ago regarding documents for my Ukrainian wife to join me to live in Spain,im a British citizen.I am currently in the Ukraine now.
Having spent 3 weeks getting all the documents together we have now hit a major hurdle.The Spanish Embassy in Kiev have told us the marriage must be registered in the UK before we submit any documents with them.
This is not on there website,it is not on any other website and it also clearly states on the British Embassy website that it is a matter of choice as to weather we register it in the UK or not.
If we register it from the British Embassy in Kiev then they send it back to the UK and do NOT return it and yes of course the polite people at the Spanish Embassy want the original with an Apostille !!!!! and they want it registered before they can do anything with our documents.This situation makes no sense to us and of course we also have a 3 month time period to get the visa,get back to Spain and start with more documents over in Spain.
I would like to know if anyone can help us please?
I would appreciate if anyone did not send us messages regarding EU directives and EU laws....quite simply the Spanish Embassy will not listen to them..its there way or nothing.
I have emails from the British Embassy and emails from Solvit and they all agree with me that they are wrong in what they say.
Many thanks for reading this and i hope someone can help us very soon

Post by **Lucapooka** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:36 pm

You can't register overseas marriages in the UK; the UK merely recognize overseas marriages as being legal without recording them in the registry. You can can ask that the GRO hold the overseas marriage cert. for safe-keeping but that is not even remotely the same a registration (which is what Spain is asking for). So, even though the Spanish are requesting something that is not necessary, you can't comply with it in any case.

levi13 · Post by **levi13** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:47 pm

Thank you for your reply
This situation is just driving us mad to be honest but we are staying positive,we surely are not the first people in the Ukraine to have gone through this.I have never met such rude people in all my life that work at the Spanish Embassy,which is sad as i have many Spanish friends and i work for a Spanish company in Spain.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:23 pm

I assume that your goal is to eventually have your wife come and settle in Spain.

I have heard so many bad stories about the Spanish embassy in London. It is beginning to look like a common theme. Maybe all Spanish embassies are so bad?

Remember that you can get a Schengen visa for the first country that you enter in Schengen. So, for instance, if you fly to Munich, you can get a German Schengen visa. (And typically the Germans are less outrageous in how they process visas).

levi13 · Post by **levi13** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:35 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:I assume that your goal is to eventually have your wife come and settle in Spain.

I have heard so many bad stories about the Spanish embassy in London. It is beginning to look like a common theme. Maybe all Spanish embassies are so bad?

Have you talked with the British embassy? Maybe you can get them to call the Spanish embassy...

Thanks for your reply....Yes our goal is too both settle in Spain.I work there and have lived there for 6 years now.I am currently in the Ukraine until 23rd of Jan next year.
The Spanish Embassy here are a joke,they are very rude and have upset my wife on many occasions.There last comment to me was "do not quote us the law..we have told you what we want"..its very hard to stay so calm in there.We have sent off many emails over this weekend so now we will just wait until next week to see what happens.The British Embassy here have been fantastic,but it seems a written rule that they do not get involved in each others rules and regulations etc..they are very careful what they say to us.Time is running out as i return to Spain in 5 weeks,but we are staying positive and we will see what happens.

Post by **John** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:43 pm

levi13, are you thinking of this procedure :-

Consular Section can arrange for your marriage certificate to be deposited with the General Register Office (GRO England / Scotland / Northern Ireland) in the United Kingdom. This not a legal obligation and has no bearing on the validity or otherwise of the marriage. It simply means that you are able to obtain a certified copy of your marriage certificate directly from the GRO, should you need to do so in the future. Please ask us for further details if you wish do this.

In any case the Spanish requirements fall well outside the requirements of the EU Directive. As already suggested, suggest entry into another Schengen country, apart from Spain, and then travel to Spain. Once there apply for a Residence Card.

As well as Germany, France and the Netherlands have a comparatively good reputation for issuing Schengen visas. Given the geography, France would be my choice, given the French/Spanish border.

levi13 · Post by **levi13** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:48 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:I assume that your goal is to eventually have your wife come and settle in Spain.

I have heard so many bad stories about the Spanish embassy in London. It is beginning to look like a common theme. Maybe all Spanish embassies are so bad?

Remember that you can get a Schengen visa for the first country that you enter in Schengen. So, for instance, if you fly to Munich, you can get a German Schengen visa. (And typically the Germans are less outrageous in how they process visas).

Quite a few other people have been hinting if all else fails then just for my wife to get a Schengen visa and arrive that way?
She can come through Poland,this is the route she always came when she visited Spain before.The only problem i am worried about is when we apply for here 5 year visa here are they going to question her being on a Schengen and will they ask why we didnt do it properly at the Spanish Embassy in Kiev ?

levi13 · Post by **levi13** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:53 pm

John wrote:levi13, are you thinking of this procedure :-

Consular Section can arrange for your marriage certificate to be deposited with the General Register Office (GRO England / Scotland / Northern Ireland) in the United Kingdom. This not a legal obligation and has no bearing on the validity or otherwise of the marriage. It simply means that you are able to obtain a certified copy of your marriage certificate directly from the GRO, should you need to do so in the future. Please ask us for further details if you wish do this.
In any case the Spanish requirements fall well outside the requirements of the EU Directive. As already suggested, suggest entry into another Schengen country, apart from Spain, and then travel to Spain. Once there apply for a Residence Card.

As well as Germany, France and the Netherlands have a comparatively good reputation for issuing Schengen visas. Given the geography, France would be my choice, given the French/Spanish border.

Thanks for reply....this is exactly what im thinking about.Her usual route to visit me in the past has been through Poland and she get a Schengen visa no problem and fly from there to Spain,just a little worried if they will
question as to why we did not get a longer visa at the Spanish embassy in kiev

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:09 pm

All she needs is any schengen zone visa. There is no requirement for a special settlement visa for Spain. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/ecj-c-15703/ which is in fact a case involving Spain.

levi13 · Post by **levi13** » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:22 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:All she needs is any schengen zone visa. There is no requirement for a special settlement visa for Spain. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/ecj-c-15703/ which is in fact a case involving Spain.

I think you have just made life very easy for us...thank you very much my friend ....i will let you know what happens in the future......thanks again

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:44 am

Strictly speaking the Schengen rules say that you should either choose the country you will spend the most time in or the country you will first enter.

I personally think that you could pick the most convenient visa service. EU free movement trumps it all, in my opinion.

If you have already had a Polish visa, I would personally pick them. And maybe fly via Poland...

levi13 · Post by **levi13** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:30 am

John wrote:levi13, are you thinking of this procedure :-

Consular Section can arrange for your marriage certificate to be deposited with the General Register Office (GRO England / Scotland / Northern Ireland) in the United Kingdom. This not a legal obligation and has no bearing on the validity or otherwise of the marriage. It simply means that you are able to obtain a certified copy of your marriage certificate directly from the GRO, should you need to do so in the future. Please ask us for further details if you wish do this.
In any case the Spanish requirements fall well outside the requirements of the EU Directive. As already suggested, suggest entry into another Schengen country, apart from Spain, and then travel to Spain. Once there apply for a Residence Card.

As well as Germany, France and the Netherlands have a comparatively good reputation for issuing Schengen visas. Given the geography, France would be my choice, given the French/Spanish border.

Sorry to bother you.This is the latest letter i have,but i am having trouble understanding exactly what they are telling me to do.Do you have any ideas...many thanks if you can help us.
I am responding to your complaint to SOLVIT about the decision of the Spanish Embassy that your marriage needs to be registered in the UK in order that Spain will recognise the marriage.

You have advised that you do not want to receive details of EU Directives and EU laws, but I must advise that marriage does not fall under EC legislation, and there is in Spain national legislation that requires non EU marriages to be either apostilled or legalised in another Member State of the EU.

As marriage recognition falls under national and not EU legislation, the UK can take the position that it will recognise marriages that take place in almost all countries, for the purposes of entry into the UK, but Spain does not. If the Ukraine is a signatory to the Apostille Convention, an apostilled copy of the certificate should be acceptable. Otherwise Spain will accept a document that has been legalised in another Member State of the EU. As the UK does not have a legalisation process, registration with the UK GRO will be accepted.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:34 am

Solvit wrote:I am responding to your complaint to SOLVIT about the decision of the Spanish Embassy that your marriage needs to be registered in the UK in order that Spain will recognise the marriage.

You have advised that you do not want to receive details of EU Directives and EU laws, but I must advise that marriage does not fall under EC legislation, and there is in Spain national legislation that requires non EU marriages to be either apostilled or legalised in another Member State of the EU.

As marriage recognition falls under national and not EU legislation, the UK can take the position that it will recognise marriages that take place in almost all countries, for the purposes of entry into the UK, but Spain does not. If the Ukraine is a signatory to the Apostille Convention, an apostilled copy of the certificate should be acceptable. Otherwise Spain will accept a document that has been legalised in another Member State of the EU. As the UK does not have a legalisation process, registration with the UK GRO will be accepted.

What does the underlined section mean? Why did you tell them? :-)

Can you get an apostile from the Ukranian government? That is likely your fastest Spanish friendly solution. (It is not relevant for this certificate, but here is the UK's web site on doing this in the UK: http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/what- ... alisation/ )

GRO registration is a pretty stupid solution. The details are pretty restrictive:

To create the record:
- one of you must be British - only that person can apply to deposit the certificates
- you must have been married in a foreign country, but not a Commonwealth country

If you are abroad, only the consul for the district where the marriage took place can send the documentation to the General Register Office.

So they will not do it when it is an Irish person living in the UK who just married a Ukranian. And they will not do it for you if you had married in Canada. And they will never do it for a marriage performed in the UK. And I suspect it takes a while: hard to imagine it happening faster that 4 to 6 weeks.

As a side note, even if they have this law in place, I do not think the Spanish could prevent you entering on a normal simple Ukranian marriage certificate if you tried to do an MRAX ( see http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/ ).

Final note: if you are in the Ukrain and have the option of quickly ordering 3 or 4 official copies of your marriage certificate, it might be the cheapest and best thing to do. You can always give them to any future children you have when they are no longer useful. And you can assume that at least will be absorbed in full into the cogs of some bureaucracy in the next few years. And I think the GRO needs one to keep if you ever go that route.

Warszawa looks like a lovely place to connect flights!

levi13 · Post by **levi13** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:42 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
Solvit wrote:I am responding to your complaint to SOLVIT about the decision of the Spanish Embassy that your marriage needs to be registered in the UK in order that Spain will recognise the marriage.

You have advised that you do not want to receive details of EU Directives and EU laws, but I must advise that marriage does not fall under EC legislation, and there is in Spain national legislation that requires non EU marriages to be either apostilled or legalised in another Member State of the EU.

As marriage recognition falls under national and not EU legislation, the UK can take the position that it will recognise marriages that take place in almost all countries, for the purposes of entry into the UK, but Spain does not. If the Ukraine is a signatory to the Apostille Convention, an apostilled copy of the certificate should be acceptable. Otherwise Spain will accept a document that has been legalised in another Member State of the EU. As the UK does not have a legalisation process, registration with the UK GRO will be accepted.
What does the underlined section mean? Why did you tell them? :-)

Can you get an apostile from the Ukranian government? That is likely your fastest Spanish friendly solution. (It is not relevant for this certificate, but here is the UK's web site on doing this in the UK: http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/what- ... alisation/ )

GRO registration is a pretty stupid solution. The details are pretty restrictive:
To create the record:
- one of you must be British - only that person can apply to deposit the certificates
- you must have been married in a foreign country, but not a Commonwealth country

If you are abroad, only the consul for the district where the marriage took place can send the documentation to the General Register Office.
So they will not do it when it is an Irish person living in the UK who just married a Ukranian. And they will not do it for you if you had married in Canada. And I suspect it takes a while: hard to imagine it happening faster that 4 to 6 weeks.

As a side note, even if they have this law in place, I do not think the Spanish could prevent you entering on a normal simple Ukranian marriage certificate if you tried to do an MRAX ( see http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/ ).

Final note: if you are in the Ukrain and have the option of quickly ordering 3 or 4 official copies of your marriage certificate, it might be the cheapest and best thing to do. You can always give them to any future children you have when they are no longer useful. And you can assume that at least will be absorbed in full into the cogs of some bureaucracy in the next few years. And I think the GRO needs one to keep if you ever go that route.

Warszawa looks like a lovely place to connect flights!

You have been very helpful to us and i thank you very much for what you have done.Yes we can get apostille stamps here no problem.
Poland is a very nice place to fly from !!!!!! tickets already booked
Thank you very much again

fysicus · Post by **fysicus** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:44 am

Ukraine is party to the apostille convention. See http://www.apostilleinfo.com/ukraine.htm

To use your marriage certificate in any EU country, you will need a translation into a language accepted in that country, and the original and the translation need to be authenticated by apostille.

In your case I would recommend to have both a Spanish and an English translation, for obvious reasons.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:45 am

Get the visa from the Polish before selecting you seat! (or counting the chickens or some such metaphor).

(rewritten for clarity) Final note: if you are in the Ukraine and have the option of quickly ordering 3 or 4 official EXTRA marriage certificate, it might be the cheapest and best thing to do. You can always give them to any future children you have when they are no longer useful. And you can assume that at least ONE will be absorbed in full into the cogs of some bureaucracy in the next few years. (I think the GRO needs one to keep if you ever go that route.)

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:36 pm

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Marriage Registration........ Spain,Ukraine,UK

Marriage Registration........ Spain,Ukraine,UK