LisaEgypt wrote:arsenal49 wrote:considering you posed a question on immigration forum....
care to elaborate on those refusals? i.e. what were the official reasons given along with those rejections? was it same all the time or different?
The first refusal was that they couldnt see how his father supported him. Despite having the company registration, bank statements, copy of student visa, copy of college timetable, fathers 5 Year uk visa. covering letter explaining the family dynamics. refusal one £76
The second refusal stated that they now had received more bank statements from two more bank accounts with large bank balances and wanted to know where the money had come from. refusal two £76
The third stated they didnt believe he actually attended his college and that they were dubious about his relationship with me or why I would want to invite him or my ability to provide him with accomodation. A covering letter advised initially for the first application by the border agency to invite him was followed to the letter, all proof of my earnings and home ownership were included. On the third attempt I took free advice from a immigration solicitor who said send every inch of paperwork about yourselves, which we did. We didnt say we were engaged because we dont want them thinking he is coming to stay because he isnt and thus open another can of worms. They seem hell bent that he is not going to leave. I was advised yesterday as a husband he would have right of appeal whereas as a visiter they can just use stupid excuse after stupid excuse, the refusal reasoning does seem to suggest this is exactly what they are doing here. Also father earns around £40,000 a year from his business not exactly a fortune but neither is it a pitence his previous 3 years tax returns were produced Refusal three £76 it all adds up, if it is thought he has no money, our government are doing a good job of releasing him of his money £76 everytime?? still nothing is clearly set out as to what they would consider acceptable written material. whats more annoying is that there doesn't appear to be a written comprehensive list of the information they require so there lieth the opportunity to falsely take the applicants money on every application without giving clear advice on the refusal as to what would make the application successful.
I knew we as a country were in dire straights financially but do people seriously know what people coming into this country are being put through? is it any wonder people choose to do it illegally when the trusted structure of border agency seems so rediculously unfair.
Hi Lisa,
Just saw your post now. Have been there, done that and even got the t-shirt.
I wrote a fax and email to the ECM on the embassy raising hell.
I would raise a complaint with the ECM at the British embassy in Egypt.
If you can use some of the points I raised in a complaint I made to another British embassy feel free to pick.
However, it's rather long and not taking any crap from them but it did result in the ECM phoned me here in the UK and mentiond my email almost had his PC fall off the desk to the floor due to the furious content.
BUT Yulia got her visa.
*******WELL HERE WE GO*******
Dear Mr. ECM,
I feel somewhat mislead, tricked and rather ignored by the British Visa Section in Kiev, Ukraine.
Please allow me to start by telling that some time ago telephoned the Visa section in Kiev, Ukraine for an advice. I gave the ECO the following information: I am EEA citizen, working and living in Great Britain. I would like to know what would be the best and easiest way to bring Yuliya over to visit me when we have no intentions of marrying in the UK and if we will marry it will be in Denmark. I was told that she should apply for a visitor visa and once married in Denmark apply for an EEA family reunification via the British consulate in Denmark where she will receive a one year EEA entry clearance which should be renewed for a five year permit in the United Kingdom before the one year Family reunion entry clearance expire.
Hence we applied as suggested enclosing so much documentation that we in fact could have applied for a fiancée visa, but as per above we had really no need for a fiancée visa which I, by the way, understand is for couples who are going to marry in the UK before the six months validity of the visa expires.
With the application from Yuliya was attached a cover letter from me, the sponsor, stated clearly my emigrational status as well as our intentions. Yuliya did also confirm all this during the interview and the Refusal of Entry Clearance does also clearly state that as well as that Yuliya is applying for a 30 days plus 5 months entry clearance. However, despite the periods applied for the ECO deems that Yuliya has not satisfied him/her that she will leave the UK on completion of the visit??!!. This does not make sense as why in earth would one go through so much trouble of applying for one period of one month and another period of five for a later date of travel if one had the intention of overstaying the visa in the first place??
The refusal also states “You [Yuliya] does not have, on the balance of probabilities, sufficient strong family, social or economic ties to Ukraine. I was unaware that the mere presumption that the lower socio-economic classes from poor and unstable nations meet the profile for those who violate visa controls. I was also unaware that two of the most commonly used grounds of refusal are that applications to visit are labelled disproportionate or non-commensurate with the socio-economic circumstances of the applicant and that the applicant has no ties with their country of origin. One or both of these grounds was used in half of all refusals of visit or student visas on the day Yuliya attended the interview as she spoke to several other applicants attending the same day. I have later learned that UKvisas has defended the current reasons they use for refusal by stating that the reasons given in refusals are simply evidence that the ECO’s take a range of background factors into account, which is acceptable when assessing credibility. I think this supports further my proposition that what is happening is identifying that an applicant is of a particular profile and so should be refused, rather than setting out defensible reasons which show on the balance of probabilities that the applicant will not leave at the end of their visit or will breach conditions.
Refusals on the basis of insufficient links with the home country do not really allege that the applicant does not have substantial ties with their country of origin. But I now realise, and will surely propagate this in my circles, that if one should get acquainted with a foreigner while being abroad that that person should be rather wealthy, have a good paid job, property, car and strong family ties, or else you and your acquaintance will face the risk of a visitor entrance clearance refusal.
Now, I understand that one should be upright and answer every question as honest as possible. I believe we did that and the result id that we are now being punished for being honest. May I direct the attention to the fact that the immigration rules do not state that because one will marry with the sponsor sometime in the future that the applicant will breach the immigration rules. In fact it says is paragraph 56D that if one wish to marry in the UK one should seek to enter the UK via a settlement clearance but still fulfil the general visitor admission are to be fulfilled as per paragraph 41 referred below of here…
The requirements to be met by a person seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom as a visitor are that he/she:
(i) is genuinely seeking entry as a visitor for a limited period as stated by him, not exceeding 6 months; and
Yuliya is a visitor as she travel to get acquainted within UK before deciding if she, and I, which to enter marriage
(ii) intends to leave the United Kingdom at the end of the period of the visit as stated by him/her; and
Yes, because she will go to Denmark where she will apply for an EEA family reunification
(iii) does not intend to take employment in the United Kingdom; and
No, such plans
(iv) does not intend to produce goods or provide services within the United Kingdom, including the selling of goods or services direct to members of the public; and
No, such plans
(v) does not intend to study at a maintained school
(vi) will maintain and accommodate himself and any dependants adequately out of resources available to him without recourse to public funds or taking employment; or will, with any defendants, be maintained and accommodated adequately by relatives or friends; and
I believe we have presented sufficient documentation with the application for the entry clearance
(vii) can meet the cost of the return or onward journey.; and
Can be produced if so needed
(viii) is not a child under the age of 18.
Hence, I don’t see that Yuliya is or will be violating any of these requirements.
Apart of the above I also think it would be worth while to mention that according to Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68, now European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC of 29 April 2004 I, as an EEA citizen have a statuary right of settling in any EEA country as long as I fulfil the criteria’s outlined in the directive. I believe that I am fulfilling all requirements in that respect.
Now, the directive states that one can bring his/her spouse and close family to the country where one is excising his/her treaty rights - In my case United Kingdom.
I realise that Yuliya is not my spouse. However, by disallowing me bringing a person to the United Kingdom, with whom I possibly would like to start a family and to ensure that that person if the right for me, and if that person likes the country where I am staying, before actually entering marriage, you are denying Yulya and me our rights relating to Article 8 of the European Human rights charter namely:
Right to respect for private and family life. Particularly relating to section one as per below:
1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
I am therefore convinced that you are depriving me the right refereeing to the above as Yuliya can’t ever
1) see if she indeed would like to live in the UK and in particular in Scotland
2) form a family, or rather intending to do so with me
Hence, the British immigration system force me to seek other solutions which in this case will have to be moving back to my country of origin, Denmark, where I always will be able to bring Yuliya, as Denmark has a rule in place that allows one to open a collateral of £ 5,000.00 as a sponsor for the person who you are inviting. The Danish government can only confiscate this sum if one of two conditions is met: Overstaying the visa or recourse to public funds.
The other option is going permanently back to Spain to live there. However, both solutions means that I will be deprived of my right to take advantage of Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 i.e. take employment and residence in the UK hence my constitutional rights are violated as your visitor refusal only gives my the option of discouraging me from using Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68. That is in fact a very serious matter, which I can bring to the European court to have a judgement for. I realise such action will take time but I might seek a prejudicial decision from the EU tribunal that will sheer some light over how EU citizen are to be treated when enjoying their constitutional rights.
One thing that really upset me was when Yuliya during the interview asked the ECO what options Yuliya had; apart of a visitor visa. Your ECO told Yuliya that she will never be able to fulfil the refusal reasons no matter which paper she would bring to the visa section. Yuliya asked what else she could do. She was told she could only marry. By suggesting such thing your ECO is actually coerce us into entering marriage before we are prepared to do so. Isn’t that in reality a marriage of convenience? And should you in fact not do everything to stop marriages of convenience? At least I am convinced after having read your work instructions section 13.10 - Validity of marriages (Diplomatic Service Procedures) and believe that is part of an ECO’s job to determine if the marriage is bogus or real. Perhaps I am wrong; however I doubt that very much. But entering marriage is not a problem for Yuliya and me. However, I will not accept to be forced into marriage just now as we have plans to do so later next year when we can celebrate our marriage in optimal circumstances and at a time when it is more convenient to us. Hence I do simply not understand why it’s important for the ECO to be convinced that Yuliya will return after the visa expires. The whole drill is all about Yuliya returning to the United Kingdom while holding an EEA family visa so what is the problem? We have even produced a document from the Danish authorities where we give notice to enter civil matrimony.
Referring to the Entry clearance refusal may I take the liberty to point out that calling the visa section is a quite daunting task. Leaving messages for a call back is of no value as nobody ever call you back. Getting a senior staff on the phone any time during working hours is as easy as getting Tony Blair on the phone being an ordinary citizen. I have during the last five days called within opening hours of 09:00 till 17:00 Ukrainian time and the telephone is never answered until 10 to 17 minutes past nine in the morning. Else you are met by an answering message telling that the opening hours are between 09:00 and 17:00
On one instance I was told by the telephone operator that I could not be attended to as there were only two ECO's available??!! I was told that normally there would be five ECOs plus an ECM available. I don’t really see that the “user” should be concerned with the staff rota apart of the fact that he should be served when desired. I was even told by the telephone operator just to turn up at the visa section of the consulate as I could not be refused requesting to see an Eco or ECM – I was dismissed by the security staff in the consulate as I did not hold an appointment, despite the consulate had still not yet gone to full electronic appointment pre-booking. I realise I am not a British citizen but I do contribute to the finances of Great Britain by paying my taxes hence I wish to get value for my money and I really do not see I am getting “value for money”.
After several persistant telephone calls I managed on the 31st of October 2006 to “force” an appointment through with the ECM, Kevan Clifton. Yuliya and I went to the consulate and was this time miraculously allowed access by the security to the secret halls of the visa section. I spoke to the ECM and after explaining my point of the tale and demonstrating that we had prepared a notice of marriage to be celebrated in Denmark on the 29th of April 06 and we had also enclosed two bookings, that we had booked even before the visa application, to Glasgow for the 28th of November 06 return on the 2nd December 06 and another trip to Kiev -> Copenhagen on the 21st December onward travel to Glasgow on the 1st of January 07 returning to Kiev start of May 07 and explaining him all these documents had all been available with the original application we, Yuliya and I, handed in on the 12th of October 2006.
The Schengen visa for Denmark is still under process due to the fact that I am not living in Denmark hence, I can't sponsor my fiancée and my parents has to do the sponsoring part. The application has to go pass the Immigration services in Denmark for them to validate the existence of the sponsor etc. Now, this has completed on the 3ed of November 2006 and the visa will supposedly be ready for pickup within the next 4-5 weeks. The Schengen visa applied for is a two entry visa for 32 days valid for a period of 6 months.
On the back ground of the above and my chat with the ECM the ECM agreed to the following:
• if the Schengen visa was issues for a single entry he would issue an Entry clearance for 5-6 weeks.
• if the Schengen visa was issued for two or more entries he would issue an Entry clearance for up to the date of the date set for the marriage as per the notice of marriage.
Initially that sounded nice and acceptable and I am much obliged for the offer. However, after reflecting a bit over the offer I am not entirely sure if we are being treated according to the conditions/demands of a entrance clearance to the UK as I don't see what bearing the Schengen visa has to whether or not a UK entry clearance should be issued or not.
Also the ECM promised to confirm his proposition as per above in writing. He suggested doing so by e-mail to
x@x.org pointing to my e-mail address on the e-mail complaint I had sent to the consulate. As per today I am still to receive such confirmation.
Could we, Yuliya and I (the sponsor), please have the application reviewed by Ukvisas in faith they would have a different view on the application for entry clearance to the UK? Hopefully believing in the higher forces of UKvisas might also bring to light that not everybody has the sole aspiration of braking UK immigration rules?
Good intentions are appreciated but results are what matters..
