Non-EU spouse LLR visa-free travel to spain with UK spouse

[cleebee]

I am a british citizen with a british passport. My husband is a Gambian citizen with Gambian passport. my husband has recently obtained his uk spouse visa which states VISA SPOUSE/CP of clare surname... which is valid until august 2014.

we have flights booked for spain on 8th June but we cannot get an appointment with the spanish embassy to apply for a shengen visa in time.

I know this topic has been covered a number of times before but I just want to make absolutely sure. Can we travel together, with both our passports and our marriage certificate to spain without having first obtained a shengen visa?

I am very confused about the terminology in respect of 'residence cards' 'residence permits' family member of an EEA citizen etc. the rules about the shengen border country (In this case spain) admitting a non-eu spouse at the border refer to that person having to have possession of a valid residence permit or card, issued by a Member State (or by EEA countries).

Does my husband's entry visa to the UK with the words VISA SPOUSE/CP of Clare surname count as a 'residence permit'??

If so then we should be able to travel to spain with this visa in his passport, with my British passport and our Gambian wedding certificate and should not be refused entry? (Taking with us the relevant directive in English and Spanish (we will be travelling with a spanish law student) and copies of the shengen advice)

we are booked to travel with easyjet. Is it worth emailing the airline beforehand? Will they allow my husband onto the plane?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated and apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. I have looked through various posts and none seem to deal specifically with my question.

I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks in advance.

[Jambo]

See Does my Non-EU spouse need a visa to Spain!.
and UK citizen with Ukrainian wife to visit spain for holiday.

[cleebee]

See Does my Non-EU spouse need a visa to Spain!.
and UK citizen with Ukrainian wife to visit spain for holiday.

Thanks for the link. I've had a look and I just wanted to be sure that the Spouse visa (which is not Indefinite Leave to Remain as my husband has not lived in the UK for the two year qualifying period yet) is enough for the 'proof of residence' part.

Can somebody clarify?

Thanks for the quick response. I'm shocked at how many people experience such difficulties and this forum is a real help.

[Jambo]

I know this topic has been covered a number of times before but I just want to make absolutely sure. Can we travel together, with both our passports and our marriage certificate to spain without having first obtained a shengen visa?

Legally - yes. However you should be prepared to fight your case with the airline.

I am very confused about the terminology in respect of 'residence cards' 'residence permits' family member of an EEA citizen etc. the rules about the shengen border country (In this case spain) admitting a non-eu spouse at the border refer to that person having to have possession of a valid residence permit or card, issued by a Member State (or by EEA countries).

Does my husband's entry visa to the UK with the words VISA SPOUSE/CP of Clare surname count as a 'residence permit'??

No. It's not. The Residence Card referred to is issued under the EEA applications and stated "family member of EEA national". This is not the UK spouse visa permit.

If so then we should be able to travel to spain with this visa in his passport, with my British passport and our Gambian wedding certificate and should not be refused entry? (Taking with us the relevant directive in English and Spanish (we will be travelling with a spanish law student) and copies of the shengen advice)

we are booked to travel with easyjet. Is it worth emailing the airline beforehand? Will they allow my husband onto the plane?

I don't think we will be refused entry but the airline is the tricky bit. Getting confirmation from EasyJet beforehand is a smart move.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated and apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. I have looked through various posts and none seem to deal specifically with my question.

Call the consulate and try to get a visa (it's free anyway). Would make your travel a lot more easy. It's not fun worrying about visas when going on holiday.

[cleebee]

See Does my Non-EU spouse need a visa to Spain!.
and UK citizen with Ukrainian wife to visit spain for holiday.

Thanks for the link. I've had a look and I just wanted to be sure that the Spouse visa (which is not Indefinite Leave to Remain as my husband has not lived in the UK for the two year qualifying period yet) is enough for the 'proof of residence' part.

Can somebody clarify?

Thanks for the quick response. I'm shocked at how many people experience such difficulties and this forum is a real help.

I have just found a post http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... c98f45b6b8 that seems to confirm that a Spouse Visa is the same as a Residence Permit as it confers the right of residence on the holder.

My next question relates to my marriage certificate. We have a Gambian marriage certificate. Gambia is not a singnatory to the Hague Convention and does not, therefore have a Hague Apostile attached. It has been stamped by the Gambian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and has the seal of the registrar General. Does anyone know what to do and whether our marriage certificate is a 'legalised' document? This is very very confusing.

Thanks in advance[/url]

P.S Does anyone know if I have to have my Gambian Wedding certificate translated into Spanish to travel to Spain (it's currently in English)?

I have just made an appointment with the Gambian embassy who are going to issue a certificate of authenticity for the marriage certificate. Hopefully that will be enough.

[Jambo]

I have just found a post http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... c98f45b6b8 that seems to confirm that a Spouse Visa is the same as a Residence Permit as it confers the right of residence on the holder.

The spouse visa is not the same as a Residence Card.

If you have a Residence Card issued under the EEA regulations then that's alone would allow visa free travel when travelling together.

In your case, you need to prove your relationship which will require the marriage certificate.

Does anyone know what to do and whether our marriage certificate is a 'legalised' document? This is very very confusing.

No idea. The airline and Spanish border control might have their own view and that is why I would recommend talking to the consulate and trying to get a visa beforehand.

[cleebee]

I have just found a post http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... c98f45b6b8 that seems to confirm that a Spouse Visa is the same as a Residence Permit as it confers the right of residence on the holder.

The spouse visa is not the same as a Residence Card.

If you have a Residence Card issued under the EEA regulations then that's alone would allow visa free travel when travelling together.

In your case, you need to prove your relationship which will require the marriage certificate.

Does anyone know what to do and whether our marriage certificate is a 'legalised' document? This is very very confusing.

No idea. The airline and Spanish border control might have their own view and that is why I would recommend talking to the consulate and trying to get a visa beforehand.

Thanks for the advice. I have tried to make an application for a shengen visa at the spanish consulate in london but they can only offer us an appointment a week after we are due to travel. Ordinarily I would always apply in advance but my sister who lives in spain is due to move to malaysia for 2 years and we have tickets booked to see her on 8th June which is the last opportunity before she leaves.

We have been waiting ages for the UK spouse visa to come through (which we need before we can apply for the shengen visa) which is why it has taken so long to apply for the spanish visa.

our only option now seems to argue our case at Gatwick/Madrid with airline staff/passport control etc. I am a UK barrister (not in immigration law though!) and will be travelling with my brother who is fluent in spanish and has a law degree so i'm not concerned about arguing the case - just need to make sure we have all the right documents so we can give them hell!

My husband will stay in the UK if he has to but we are keen for him to meet my sister (for the first time) before she leaves.

ironically he will be granted an automatic visa when travelling to Malaysia based on his Gambian passport...

So as long as we have our marriage certificate, UK spouse Visa and travel together we have a strong case to be allowed entry to spain.

will we encounter any problems returning to the UK?

[Jambo]

You should have much less trouble coming back (or entering the UK) as he has a valid visa.

The Spanish border control might ask how you entered but should not be bothered too much as you are leaving.

Another option is to apply for a Schengen visa from a different country as you wish to visit them and then "realising" that you won't go there but instead go to Spain. Consulates don't like this practice so if they find out they might be less friendly next time.

[cleebee]

You should have much less trouble coming back (or entering the UK) as he has a valid visa.

The Spanish border control might ask how you entered but should not be bothered too much as you are leaving.

Another option is to apply for a Schengen visa from a different country as you wish to visit them and then "realising" that you won't go there but instead go to Spain. Consulates don't like this practice so if they find out they might be less friendly next time.

Yes I had a look at Estonia, Luxembourg and Slovenia but have had no luck getting an appointment before 8th June. I might try a few others. Do any of them issue postal applications anymore? I have polish ancestry so might give poland a try...

As we have handbaggage only and will check-in online and go straight to departures will there be any checks before boarding?

I figured so long as we actually get to spain they will have a hard time refusing us entry once we are psychically standing there with all our documents.

If they do decide to deport us - will they allow me to fly back with my husband?

Thanks for all your advice. I plan to write a post of my experience when we get back (hopefully after spending 4 days in madrid together!)

[cleebee]

You should have much less trouble coming back (or entering the UK) as he has a valid visa.

The Spanish border control might ask how you entered but should not be bothered too much as you are leaving.

Another option is to apply for a Schengen visa from a different country as you wish to visit them and then "realising" that you won't go there but instead go to Spain. Consulates don't like this practice so if they find out they might be less friendly next time.

Yes I had a look at Estonia, Luxembourg and Slovenia but have had no luck getting an appointment before 8th June. I might try a few others. Do any of them issue postal applications anymore? I have polish ancestry so might give poland a try...

As we have handbaggage only and will check-in online and go straight to departures will there be any checks before boarding?

I figured so long as we actually get to spain they will have a hard time refusing us entry once we are psychically standing there with all our documents.

If they do decide to deport us - will they allow me to fly back with my husband?

Thanks for all your advice. I plan to write a post of my experience when we get back (hopefully after spending 4 days in madrid together!)

Interestingly I have just visited the Polish Embassy visa website and they state the following:


INFORMATION ON VISA REQUIREMENTS FOR FAMILY MEMBERS OF THE EU NATIONALS

I. If you are a family member of the EU national, please note that, on the basis of Directive 2004/38/EC you do not need an entry visa to enter Poland if you meet all 3 following requirements:

1) You are a family member of the EU citizen.
Family member means:
- spouse,
- descendants of the Union citizen who are under the age of 21 or are dependants, and those of the spouse, living in the common household with the EU citizen.
- dependent direct relatives of the Union citizen in the ascending line and those of the spouse, or living in the common household with the EU citizen;
2) You are a holder of:
-UK Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National,
or
-Limited Leave to Remain in the United Kingdom,
or
-Indefinite Leave to Remain in the United Kingdom.
3) You are travelling together with the EU citizen to Poland or joining the EU citizen in Poland.

Please, make sure you hold the original of the document proving the family ties with the EU citizen (e.g. marriage or birth certificate) when crossing the Polish border.

They specify explicitly that holders of LLR and ILR providing they can supply an original marriage certificate (In English) do not require a visa on the basis of Directive 2004/38/EC.

If only the Spanish and French authorities were as clear! I shall be taking a copy of this with me to show that other shengen countries are recognising the UK LLR and ILR visas as proof of residence.

[Jambo]

You can try Germany. They do application by post although they do warn you not to use it if you don't plan to travel to Germany.

You can try France or Portugal as you can claim you will visit them from Spain.

[cleebee]

You can try Germany. They do application by post although they do warn you not to use it if you don't plan to travel to Germany.

You can try France or Portugal as you can claim you will visit them from Spain.

Unfortunately the German postal system requires you to have already made a shengen application in the past. I will try Portugal (already tried France no luck)

I am, however, worried About our Plan to go to the airport as I received the following email from Your Europe Advice in response to my question about non-visa travel to Spain:

"I will deal with the latter question, given that it is easily disposable (short answer being that your husband must apply and obtain a Schengen visa before his travel);

Your husband is a visa national (given his Gambian nationality). What that means is that he must hold a visa before he can embark onto the plane (by virtue of Article 5 paragraph 2 Directive 2004/38 and Regulation 539/2001).

He will not be allowed to board the plane if he does not hold the corresponding visa (under Airline Carrier liability, the airline would be fined by the Spanish authorities if your husband were to be allowed to board the plane without the corresponding visa)!"

Does anyone have experience of easyjet taking this approach? Surely the person writing this email advice has got it wrong?? Any advice greatly appreciated!

The provision you cite (article 5 paragraph 4 Directive 2004/38) is therefore not applicable, given that he will not be given the opportunity to board the plane that would carry him to the Spanish border post in Spain.

[ca.funke]

I know this topic has been covered a number of times before but I just want to make absolutely sure. Can we travel together, with both our passports and our marriage certificate to spain without having first obtained a shengen visa?

You are legally allowed to go without visa. Whether you´ll practically manage depends on luck and how well you are prepared...

You have to look at part 2 "EEA family member without Residence Card" within the following post:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=95372

"I will deal with the latter question, given that it is easily disposable (short answer being that your husband must apply and obtain a Schengen visa before his travel);

Your husband is a visa national (given his Gambian nationality). What that means is that he must hold a visa before he can embark onto the plane (by virtue of Article 5 paragraph 2 Directive 2004/38 and Regulation 539/2001).

He will not be allowed to board the plane if he does not hold the corresponding visa (under Airline Carrier liability, the airline would be fined by the Spanish authorities if your husband were to be allowed to board the plane without the corresponding visa)!"

YourEurope writes stuff like that? Ouch!

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Unfortunately the German postal system requires you to have already made a shengen application in the past...

Not for EU family members as I understood things (unless they've changed their practice recently).

Read Jambo's link, EU family members can apply by post.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

YourEurope writes stuff like that? Ouch!

Much as one might not like the advice, I believe it may be correct.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

It's getting very late now, but did you try and make an appointment directly with the Spanish Embassy or via VFS?

Those applicants who prefer to address their application directly to this Consulate General, including spouses and partners, and family dependants of Spanish and UE citizens, should write a letter (phone calls, fax and e-mails will not be accepted) to this Consulate General that can be sent by post or delivered in person. The applicant will be given an appointment in the first available date and in strictly order of presentation. The appointment will be sent to you via post.

http://www.maec.es/SUBWEBS/CONSULADOS/L ... .aspx#sec1

[cleebee]

It's getting very late now, but did you try and make an appointment directly with the Spanish Embassy or via VFS?

Those applicants who prefer to address their application directly to this Consulate General, including spouses and partners, and family dependants of Spanish and UE citizens, should write a letter (phone calls, fax and e-mails will not be accepted) to this Consulate General that can be sent by post or delivered in person. The applicant will be given an appointment in the first available date and in strictly order of presentation. The appointment will be sent to you via post.

http://www.maec.es/SUBWEBS/CONSULADOS/L ... .aspx#sec1

Yes I tried to make an appointment with the Spanish embassy but the next available date is 15th June and we travel on 8th.

I have since managed to get an appointment with the Maltese embassy on 31st May and without too much hassle (but some expense) can rearrange our flights so that we fly into Malta on 8th, spend one night there and then fly to Madrid the next day.

I'm hoping this will work so that I get to see my sister before she goes to Malaysia which is the main reason for our trip and why we have left it so late to apply for anything!

When you apply for a shengen visa do they give you it for 90 days automatically or can they fix it for a shorter period?

From my reading of the Maltese guidelines they require flight details (which I had understood were not mandatory). I can show them our flight in but then i am worried to show the return flight (i.e. Malta to Madrid on 9th then Madrid to the UK on 12th) because they will see that we are to spend longer in Spain than we are in Malta and may question why we didn't apply for a Spanish visa?

Does anyone have any experience of this type of problem?

Interestingly the Maltese website says the following about UK residence permits:


Residence Permits

On the basis of the Schengen Convention, now integrated in the EU framework, a valid residence permit from a Schengen State, together with a travel document, can substitute for a visa. Thus a third-country national presenting his/her passport and a valid residence permit issued by a Schengen Member State can be allowed to enter another Schengen Member State for a short-stay without needing a visa. This equivalence does not apply to residence permits issued by the United Kingdom and Ireland, since they do not apply the Schengen acquis.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

What part of the UK are you in?

Have you thought about getting to Madrid from UK by train? You can get to a border without a flight and argue your MRAX entry using that.

Is it worth considering perhaps?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Interestingly the Maltese website says the following about UK residence permits:


Residence Permits

On the basis of the Schengen Convention, now integrated in the EU framework, a valid residence permit from a Schengen State, together with a travel document, can substitute for a visa. Thus a third-country national presenting his/her passport and a valid residence permit issued by a Schengen Member State can be allowed to enter another Schengen Member State for a short-stay without needing a visa. This equivalence does not apply to residence permits issued by the United Kingdom and Ireland, since they do not apply the Schengen acquis.

This is consistent and correct. Your spouse does not hold an article 10 residence card, but a permit issued under the UK immigration rules. The UK chose not to enter and enjoy the benefits of Schengen.

There is a difference between Residence Permits (issued to third country nationals under domestic rules) and Residence Cards (issued to third country family members of EU citizens under EU rules).

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I have since managed to get an appointment with the Maltese embassy on 31st May and without too much hassle (but some expense) can rearrange our flights so that we fly into Malta on 8th, spend one night there and then fly to Madrid the next day.

From my reading of the Maltese guidelines they require flight details (which I had understood were not mandatory). I can show them our flight in but then i am worried to show the return flight (i.e. Malta to Madrid on 9th then Madrid to the UK on 12th) because they will see that we are to spend longer in Spain than we are in Malta and may question why we didn't apply for a Spanish visa?

Does anyone have any experience of this type of problem?

Strictly speaking, with your declared itinerary, Spain is the country of your main destination and Spain is where you should apply (I know you've tried that).

What if you were to plan to visit friends in Portugal (perfectly feasible) for a short period? Now, there would be no main destination and as Malta would be your first port of entry, Malta is where you should get your visa.

Of course, being in Shengen it can be difficult to always know which country you are in :). I'm not advocating telling untruths of course!

[cleebee]

I have since managed to get an appointment with the Maltese embassy on 31st May and without too much hassle (but some expense) can rearrange our flights so that we fly into Malta on 8th, spend one night there and then fly to Madrid the next day.

From my reading of the Maltese guidelines they require flight details (which I had understood were not mandatory). I can show them our flight in but then i am worried to show the return flight (i.e. Malta to Madrid on 9th then Madrid to the UK on 12th) because they will see that we are to spend longer in Spain than we are in Malta and may question why we didn't apply for a Spanish visa?

Does anyone have any experience of this type of problem?

Strictly speaking, with your declared itinerary, Spain is the country of your main destination and Spain is where you should apply (I know you've tried that).

What if you were to plan to visit friends in Portugal (perfectly feasible) for a short period? Now, there would be no main destination and as Malta would be your first port of entry, Malta is where you should get your visa.

Of course, being in Shengen it can be difficult to always know which country you are in . I'm not advocating telling untruths of course!

hmmmm yes i do have a friend in portugal i could see. in all seriousness my dad lives in france and it is perfectly feasible for us to go there after madrid... will i need to give proof of all these flights/accommodation?

I will show them my booked ryanair flight to malta with one night hotel booking but then i cant give them a return flight as we will be off to madrid the next night (and then off to portugal/france of course)... also there is a chance that my sister will join us in Malta and that we are waiting for her to confirm before we book our return flight?

I take it its perfectly acceptable to get the visa based on the outgoing flight, to declare that we have not made firm plans yet as (which is reasonable) we are waiting to see if we get the visa or not before we decide if we will go to Spain or if my sister will come to malta...? sorry for the 20 questions and hypothetical scenarios...

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

[... will i need to give proof of all these flights/accommodation?

No, I would not have thought so. For general Schengen applications proof of accommodation is required. This does not apply to EU family members accompanying EU national.

Side trips to neighboring countries to Spain can be by any means of transport (lose the island mentality :)). There's absolutely no need to give details. If embassy ask, why didn't you apply to Spanish embassy, you can tell them that you could not get an appointment or that you have no main destination as it's a multiple trip and that Malta is your first entry. No problem (you can book things on the way or just turn up at hotels).

BTW - did you consider the train to Madrid from the UK?

[cleebee]

[... will i need to give proof of all these flights/accommodation?

No, I would not have thought so. For general Schengen applications proof of accommodation is required. This does not apply to EU family members accompanying EU national.

Side trips to neighboring countries to Spain can be by any means of transport (lose the island mentality ). There's absolutely no need to give details. If embassy ask, why didn't you apply to Spanish embassy, you can tell them that you could not get an appointment or that you have no main destination as it's a multiple trip and that Malta is your first entry. No problem (you can book things on the way or just turn up at hotels).

BTW - did you consider the train to Madrid from the UK?

Thank you so much for the reply - extremely helpful indeed.

I hadn't considered the train as I booked the flights ages ago to get the cheap deal. Is it easier by train?

In the future we wont be under so much time pressure. My husband's spouse visa only just came through this week on Monday 21st May and we need to travel 8th June if we are to see my sister before she leaves.

I plan to visit my dad in france later in the year - I have learnt a very valuable lesson - apply well in advance then you wont have to make an unscheduled stop to a tiny island in the Mediterranean!

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I hadn't considered the train as I booked the flights ages ago to get the cheap deal. Is it easier by train?

It depends on where in the UK you live. If you can get to central London then it be easy to travel by Eurostar to Paris (and beyond). Paris - Madrid has good fast connections.

What I meant though is that you would encounter French immigration in London and could effectively get a visa there and then (this is what I meant by MRAX). I have not personally tried this.

An non-EU national cannot be turned back from a border if they can prove that they are a family member of an EU national whom they are accompanying (passports and marriage certificate or I suppose UK issued residence permit in your case if it makes clear that you're married).

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

... apply well in advance...

Agree, but not always possible, I suppose.