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UK Citizen marrying an overstaying non EU Citizen

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jizza01
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UK Citizen marrying an overstaying non EU Citizen

Post by jizza01 » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:34 pm

I am a British Citizen and have been involved in a relationship with a Brazilian woman for the past year. She has over stayed her VISA in the UK by 7 years so therefore been here in total for 8 years.

She has been working for the last 6 years in various jobs and been paying national insurance and tax under a Portugese nationality which is incorrect.

We are planning to marry later in 2007 so I wanted to find out what procedures we can go through to marry and for her to have legal residency in the UK.

Would we be able to marry in the UK and her obtain a marriage VISA or would we have to return to Brazil to do this?

Also since she has overstayed by such a long time would this affect her application?

Hope to hear from you all soon.

Regards,

J :)

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:51 pm

I'm afraid that I can't answer all of your questions, but I do know that you cannot marry your partner in the UK. She would need a Certificate of Approval to marry from the Home Office and would not be able to get it due to her status. An option would be to marry in Brazil and apply for a spousal visa at a UK embassy there; but to be honest I haven't any idea of the chances of the visa being successful. I'm sure someone else can come on and clarify this further.

jizza01
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Work permit for overstaying citizen to remain in UK

Post by jizza01 » Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:07 pm

Does anyone know whether someone can obtain a work permit to legally stay in the UK if they are currently an overstayer? Provided their employer knows the situation.

WoodieG
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Post by WoodieG » Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:41 pm

They could have a work permit approved without a problem as they do not look into the applicant's immigration status. However, she would need to return home to obtain entry clearance - so you'd be in the same situation as if you got married in Brazil.
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Last edited by WoodieG on Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JAJ
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Re: UK Citizen marrying an overstaying non EU Citizen

Post by JAJ » Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:23 am

jizza01 wrote: She has been working for the last 6 years in various jobs and been paying national insurance and tax under a Portugese nationality which is incorrect.
What do you mean by a "Portuguese nationality which is incorrect". Do you mean a fake Portuguese passport?

Rover8098
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Post by Rover8098 » Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:53 am

Your best option (and this is speaking from personal experience) is for your fiancee and you to go back to Brazil, marry there and then apply for her 2 year spouse visa from the British embassy there. Please however may I suggest that your fiancee doesn't tell her employer the truth about her immigration status? If she does, she is likely (and almost certainly, on the assumption that her employer is a genuine and bonafide business organisation) to get fired on the grounds that she has no legal right to work in the UK/EU, as technically, and forgive me for using my 2 most hated words, the employer would class your fiancee as an "illegal immigrant" and there are some serious fines for all employers employing people who have no legal right to work in the UK. On the other hand, I presume your fiancee would also likely to have falsified her eligibility to work in the UK when she applied and was offered her current job? (most application forms for employment have the question "do you require a work permit to work in the UK?" as standard). Believe me, the fact that she has/still pays Income tax and NI means sweet FA (as in the eyes of the UK Immigration authorities, the very fact that she is working means she is breaking the rules. Her best option would be to just resign normally from her job once you and her are ready to leave for Brazil and then at least that way when she is back in the UK again, she could try and get a job back at the same place or get references from her current employer (think you'll agree that resigning is a much better option than getting fired!)
Next, get your finacee a very good immigration lawyer in the UK before you go to Brazil to marry - why? Once you apply for your fiancee's spouse visa in the British embassy at Brazil, and once again on the assumption that both of you are honest and tell the immigration authorities the truth about her previous immigration status in the UK, her application is VERY LIKELY to be refused on the grounds that she had broken the conditions of her previous visa by overstaying. They will ask why your finacee made no efforts to legalise her stay in the UK given she had overstayed for 7 years. They will also probably question the genuineness of your relationship/marriage and try to prove that it is a marriage of convenience for your partner's sake and several other reasons why they don't believe your partner should be allowed to return to the UK.
On the other hand, they might actually just issue her a 2 year visa and that's that - but do you really want to take that chance? Once the visa is refused, you'll then be given a 'notice of refusal' and told that you can appeal their decision within 28 days. At that stage, your solicitor will write to the ECO at the embassy and request that they review their decision, which if they uphold will then be forwarded to the independent immigrations tribunal in the UK. You could have to wait months to get an appeal date. For the appeal, your solicitor has to prepare a 'bundle'-which basically is everything about your and your partner's relationship history, life, jobs, finances, character etc etc etc. At the appeal itself, your partner will be represented by a barrister chosen by your solicitor and the home office will be represented by a 'HOPO' (home office presenting officer) - both will present their cases for and against why your wife should be aloowed in to the UK, but remember, as EU citizen yourself, you have the 'right to a family life', but that doesn't give your wife the automatic right to settle in the UK as you could easily have a family life with your wife in Brazil, but the key thing would be to prove why your couldn't live/settle in Brazil (job, family, commitments??).
In summary, your fiancee's position is not an easy one, but the key thing is to get her a good immigration lawyer as soon as you can. Be prepared for some tough times ahead and heartache of being temporarily separated whilst she will be in Brazil and you'll be in the UK (unless you can pack everything up and go with her!) but most importantly, be prepared to give your fiancee endless support and hopefully everything will work out in your favour. Good luck.

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Post by olisun » Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:30 pm

@Rover8098

it will be easier to read your post if you add some line breaks or format your post into paragraphs... :lol:

jizza01
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Post by jizza01 » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:06 pm

JAJ wrote:
What do you mean by a "Portuguese nationality which is incorrect". Do you mean a fake Portuguese passport?
Correct JAJ, she obtained a fake Portugese ID (not passport) it is authentic but not registered on any systems.

Rover8098
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Post by Rover8098 » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:14 pm

Olisun, thanks for the tip, but I'm trying to help the guy out - I'm sure he won't have problems reading it. If you have any valid points to make about my post, please do so mate. People come to this site to get quality information, if they wanted a 'pretty' web site, they'd go somewhere else.

jizza01
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Post by jizza01 » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:15 pm

@Rover8098

If she resigns from her current employment and we return back to Brazil together to get married, providing she is not checked on departure by immigration thoroughly is there a chance that they will not know how long she has been in UK?

If we get then get married in Brazil and apply for a spouse visa will the HO then look into her trips to London and ask questions of how we met or is it best to play it as if I met her in Brazil on holiday and we now are married?

Basically how likely is it that we can return to Brazil without having to disclose the truth about her overstay here and apply for the spouse visa and simply produce the documentation needed. ie; birth certificates, marriage certificate, proof of relationship (cards, letters, photos), letters of support from family, employment, bank.

JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:02 pm

jizza01 wrote: Correct JAJ, she obtained a fake Portugese ID (not passport) it is authentic but not registered on any systems.
Do you mean a stolen blank passport?

If that is the case, she may well be committing a criminal offence.

Rover8098
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Post by Rover8098 » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:32 pm

Hi Jizza,

From my experience of travelling through Heathrow/Gatwick, the only time the passport is checked is at the airline check-in desk to establish whether the person travelling has a valid visa to travel to the destination country (which in your fiancee's case, assuming that she has a valid Brazilian passport, she can then freely travel to her 'home country').

However, i have read in other posts within this forum that from time to time, immigration do check passports on departure (it's never happened to me personally) - but even if they do, given that your fiancee is leaving the country, there's not a lot they can do, as immigration authorities are more interested in stopping people coming in to the country illegally rather than stopping those who are leaving voluntarily!)

As for your 2nd point, i.e. whether to tell the ECO in Brazil that you met her in Brazil, that's a decision that you need to take. But may I just point out that the ECO's are trained to identify when people are lying. As part of the interview, both your fiancee and you will first be interviewed separately and then together, and any discrepancies between your individual answers would immediately raise suspicion - for example, if you say you met her on holiday, then why did you marry so quickly? Is it a marriage of convenience for her to get entry to the UK? Also, is there any way they could do checks on your fiancee on UK databases such as the Inland Revenue, Council Tax, DVLA etc? Rarely do they do that, but are you really willing to run the risk of being proved a liar and harming her case even further? I know lying in situations like this very very tempting, but sometimes honesty is the best policy, but then again, majority of immigration officers are not human , so honesty could also lead to the worse - unfortunately I'm not a trained immigration adviser, so I can't suggest what you should do.

By the sound of your other post, your fiancee is also commiting a pretty serious 'crime' by possesing a false identity, so whatever you do mate, please get this sorted sooner rather than later. The key thing should be the fact that (assuming!) you two love each other and want to spend the rest of your life as husband and wife, and as the wife of a EU citizen (i.e. you), your wife should be able to settle in the UK - that's what your solictitor needs to try and prove, so the less the lies, the better (no harm bending the truth slightly tho!). Any more questions, feel free to ask. :lol:

jizza01
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Post by jizza01 » Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:48 pm

Hi Rover8098,

Thanks very much for your response. Having spoken to her further this evening about this matter some things have come to light which might make things clearer in terms of you or anyone else advising me.

She returned to Brazil 3 years ago and obtained a new passport from the government as she misplaced her previous, this meant no visible records of her previous entry or return from UK. Upon her return to the UK there after she was here on a 6 month visitors visa which since then she has overstayed. It has now been 2 and a half years.

In terms of her ID she managed to obtain a blank, authentic Portugese ID card which she had her name, d.o.b and photo entered. It is real to the naked eye but the details are not present on any databases. (I hope this clears up your question JAJ?)

She also managed to obtain a National Insurance card from a friend, which she has used to pay tax. This number is also not recorded on any databases associated with her name apart from Tax purposes ie, P45.
On discussion she therefore will reseign from her present employment before we decide to go to Brazil. Unless they investigate is it worth mentioning she was paying tax or better to say she was in Cash-in-hand employment for her 2 years overstay here?

She also feels it is best to say we met here in the UK and have been involved in a relationship for some time (the truth). At least this way if we are both questioned we will have the same story. If I am called for interview will I need to be in Brazil?

The best thing I think we can do is find a Immigration Solicitor a few months before we decide to go to Brazil and tell him the truth about everything and see what they recommend. What do you think?

I am happy to here the view of moderators in this instance. :D

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Post by Wanderer » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:04 pm

Sorry to say this mate but she sounds well dodgy and fraudster too.

I don't wanna come across all Trisha but are you sure you know the whole truth? Plus I echo what some of the other guys here have said or intimated at, the truth will out and she and you could be in serious bother.

I don't think anyone here knows exactly what the HO and immifgration know about her history so I'd say you bother have to tell the absolute truth.

Then go for fiancee or spouse visa since poor prior immigration history seems to count less in these categories. As for VV I wouldn't risk it.

Other than that ur looking at 14 years rule to regularise her status, who knows what wil happen to that in the next six before she qualifies.

In Bill Naughton's play 'Spring and Port Wine' the father Rafe Crompton urges his son "The Truth Son, it's the only way..." I never forgot it and if you abide by it theres no way to be caught out. They could still hang you for treason though....

Sorry bout that, trying to lighten up....

Steve

Rover8098
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Post by Rover8098 » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:47 pm

Jizza, seems like you know quite little about the person you are going to marry - sorry to sound like your nagging mum, but are you sure she is telling you the truth and it's not you but a visa she is more interested in? Forgive me for saying this, it's just a feeling, but she may genuinely actually want to be with you.

So then, it's not 7 years she has overstayed, it's 2 1/2 years - I'm confused, so how was she here for the first 5 years?? I'm glad you have decided to tell the truth, but your last post really has thrown more light on your case, and I am confused. And what do you mean by she got hold of a NI no "from a friend"??! Dodgy passport, dodgy NI, what else? It doesn't actually sound like she has innocently overstayed - she's actually quite contrived and that's not going to go down well with immigration. It probably is best if you don't tell the ECO she paid tax!! On top of overstaying, she could get done for fraud - seriously, get yourself a good solicitor ASAP and for god's sake, please be honest. Good luck mate, hope evrything works out for the two of you.

jizza01
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Post by jizza01 » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:18 pm

Hi Rover8098,

I know it may sound very dodgy but I know everything about her. It's not a problem.

8 years ago she was in the UK on a student visa after which she overstayed for 4 years. She then returned to Brazil for 3 months and came back to the UK on a visitors visa and has been here since.

There is no dodgy passport her Brazilian passport is 100% genuine. She has innocently overstayed to work here and has not been engaged in any sort of criminal activities. Bank accounts have been opened with the Brazilian passport so are therefore completely legal. She did obtain a NI card and Portugese ID card to enable her to work in the UK which agreeably wasn't right but the only thing an overstayer in her position could do.

She has had various boyfriends over the years and plently of opportunity to obtain a visa but has chosen not to marry as the people have not been right. In my judgement after knowing what I do, I maintain that she is in it because she actually wants to be with me.

We will be getting a lawyer in Brazil and in UK to advise us of the best way to move forward. I agree that we should not tell the ECO she paid tax but we will tell the lawyers the absolute truth so they can best advice us. We are mentally prepared for it to be a long ride.

If you have anything additional you can advise or if anybody wants to add comments please do.

Thanks,

J

Wanderer
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Post by Wanderer » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:48 pm

jizza01 wrote:8 years ago she was in the UK on a student visa after which she overstayed for 4 years. She then returned to Brazil for 3 months and came back to the UK on a visitors visa and has been here since.

There is no dodgy passport her Brazilian passport is 100% genuine. She has innocently overstayed to work here and has not been engaged in any sort of criminal activities. Bank accounts have been opened with the Brazilian passport so are therefore completely legal. She did obtain a NI card and Portugese ID card to enable her to work in the UK which agreeably wasn't right but the only thing an overstayer in her position could do.
I don't agree she 'innocently' overstayed, she did it knowingly based on what you have told us. She's overstayed two visas and used a forged ID card to work illegally and was guilty of deception in using another persons NI number.

I know you looking through the eyes of love but from here to me it looks like she could be using you to regularise her status here, maybe she feels the web closing in....

I'd be worried about the NI thing, presumably she used her own name, in which case HMCE will have two names, one NI number, and they will know, we just got a letter from them because they think my partners NI number is wrong so they are on the ball.

I don't really have any answers, sorry.

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Post by Rover8098 » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:58 pm

Come on wanderer, you are being a bit tough on the poor guy now - I think he's the best judge of whether or not she loves him/wants to be with him than you or me. However, I do agree with you on your point about her not being innocent in overstaying - once is bad, for 4 years, she must have then been given a 6 month visitors visa, which given she has been here for 4 years, she has overstayed for 3 1/2 years - so 4 years first time, 3 1/2 years 2nd time, so saying she 'innocently' overstayed is not going to go down very well the ECO.

Jizza, glad you've decided to get yourself a good lawer and yes, please be 110% honest to them, no matter how bad it may sound - yours wouldn't be the 1st they've heard, so don't feel ashamed, plus, that's their job and they are there to help you. Good luck, but please do update this post once there is any progress in your fiancee's case as I'd love to hear how you get along. All the best.

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Post by Wanderer » Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:44 pm

Rover8098 wrote:Come on wanderer, you are being a bit tough on the poor guy now - I think he's the best judge of whether or not she loves him/wants to be with him than you or me. H
Yeah mate sorry!

It's just I deal with some many guys in international relationships that don't know the person they're supposedly in love with in gets to me. My partners is Russian and so I've become the local 'expert' in my town to the chancers, trophy wife hunters and dreamers.

Ur right I don't know the OP and I should shut up!

Sorry OP!

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Post by scroberts » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:08 am

I am in a similar situation Jizza. To try to cut a long story short and to not go over the same details and ask the same questions. Met my brazilian boyfriend last july. In march he will be returning to brazil after a year of outstaying his visa. To cut out all the questions of him using me for a visa. I am 100 per cent sure he isn't.

He originally planned to go back in november and has stayed longer because of me, and also many arguments recently as he doesn't know if he wants to live here forever. But anyway he is leaving end of march and in april I will go for a month. We have talked about the marriage option for a while of course and also him applying for a fiance visa to return in july after we have been together for a year and having spent some time apart.

The thing worrying me is also is when we are applying for a spouse visa or a fiance visa, whether to lie and say we met exactly a year before, and have spent a year apart, so we can both be secure in all our answers being the same but a year earlier. Does anyone know when applying for a fiance visa exactly how much information they ask for. I read an forum where someone says they kept msn conversations, telephone bills etc. Do they really ask for all that? of course we have pictures from the relationship for this year which we could say are from the year before.

Also if he doesn't get through immigration and they stamp his passport as having overstayed his visa, and they know the truth so we can't lie, how likely is it that they will refuse an application for a fiance visa, and would it be better to marry in Brazil and apply for a marriage visa? Sorry I know I have gone on, although I didn't mean to, and I am probaly going to get same replies as Jizza, but if anyone has anymore info I would be so greatful.

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