EEA Family Permit route previously resident in EU country

limey · Post by **limey** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:59 pm

Can anyone tell me what my chances are with the following scenario?

I have dual British/Irish nationality and I currently reside in the UK. My wife is Chinese and resides in China.

Now my plan is this...

Using my Irish citizenship and the EEA Family Permit route, my wife comes to live with me in the UK and would be legally resident in the UK. I think this would be quite straight-forward.

Then I move to Ireland and use my British citizenship and the EEA Family Permit route again to allow my wife to come and live with me in Ireland.

As the Irish EEA interpretation of the rules stipulate that we needed to have lived legally in another EU country, then we would have satisfied that criteria!

My question is... Would my wife coming to live in Ireland with me then be a formality or not?

Has anyone achieved or tried anything like this yet?

Can anyone see any flaws with this approach?

BigAppleWoodenShoe · Post by **BigAppleWoodenShoe** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:19 am

So you want to give your wife residency in England, I am not certain about the laws in England, so I can't tell you if this is difficult or not.

Then you want to bring her over to Ireland under the EU1 act (prev. lived in other EU state) this is possible if you can show evidence of a residence permit for more than 6 months. (I believe)

But then you don't really want to go to Ireland? Are you trying to pull things off to get an english residency for your wife easily?

yankeegirl · Post by **yankeegirl** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:42 am

Hi Limey,

In theory I think your plan satisfies the current rules. The only thing I wonder about is how long the Irish government expects a couple to have lived in another EU state prior to using the EU1 route to Ireland. I'm not sure if there is any guideline. I think BigAppleWoodenShoe is right in that it should be more than six months. How long are you planning to have your wife living with you in the UK before moving to Ireland?

limey · Post by **limey** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:05 pm

Yankee: I'm not sure how long we would stay in the UK. Originally, we decided that I would move to Ireland and apply from there for her to join me using the EEA Family Permit route. But after reading of the problems other people have faced I thought it better to live together in the UK first.

BigApple: The aim is to live in Ireland long-term not the UK. We are not doing this in order to live in the UK.

I have a property in the UK which I intend to sell before relocating to Ireland and that could take time. So I need to know that we have a reasonable chance of success in Ireland before going ahead otherwise we will end up stuck in the UK and homeless!

limey · Post by **limey** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:43 pm

Bigapple: The following text shows that using my Irish citizenship to bring my wife into the UK using the EEA Family Permit route is possible (Even though I am also British). As I said earlier this will help with our subsequent move to Ireland as we will have resided in another EEA country.

I am posting this as it may help other people on this forum with dual UK and Irish/EEA nationailties!

Quote:-
21.4.7 Dual nationals / Irish / EEA nationals holding settled status
Dual nationals, Irish nationals or EEA nationals holding settled status may choose to bring their family members to the UK either on an EEA family permit or via the Immigration Rules.

If the applicants choose to be treated under EC law they should be issued with an EEA family permit free of charge. If they choose to come under the Immigration Rules, they must pay the appropriate entry clearance application fee.

In addition, if the dual national / Irish or EEA national holding settled status chooses to bring his/her family members under EC law, the family members would not be entitled to apply for settled status until they had resided with the Irish / Dual or EEA national in the UK for five years. However, if they choose to come under the Immigration Rules they would be entitled to apply for settled status after two years.

You are not under any duty to ask sponsors who say that they are British whether they hold, or could hold, dual nationality. The onus is upon the applicant to provide this information if he/she thinks it is relevant to the application. If dual nationality is mentioned by the applicant, you should explain the choice of whether to come under the Immigration Rules or EC law but should make clear that evidence of EEA nationality (for example EEA passport) will be required. A possible entitlement to dual citizenship (for example birth in Ireland) is not sufficient.

See here...
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front ... 6328#point four seven

limey · Post by **limey** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:50 pm

Once my Non-EEA wife is legally resident in the UK then we can use the Surinder Singh case to move to Ireland...

See the following rule from the UKVisas website...

21.4.8 Surinder Singh cases
The ECJ case of Surinder Singh states that nationals of a Member State who go with their non-EEA family members to another Member State to exercise a Treaty right in an economic capacity, (as a worker or self-employed person) will on return to their home state, be entitled to bring their non-EEA family members to join them under EC law. (For example a British national and his non-EEA national spouse/children who have lived in Germany and exercised an economic treaty right and are now returning to the UK).

The Surinder Singh judgement is now incorporated into the EEA Regulations in Regulation 9.

It is confined to those cases where a British national has exercised an economic Treaty right and the Non-EEA national family member can demonstrate their lawful residence in a member state. (see section 21.4.1 on applications made from another Member State for more information on lawful residence requirements).

It does not matter if the only reason the British national went to another Member State to exercise an economic Treaty right was so that he/she could come back to the UK with his/her family members under EC law.

The non-EEA spouse will be eligible for entry into the UK under the Surinder Singh ruling provided that the marriage is valid and that the couple are not formally divorced. This applies even in cases where the non-EEA national spouse has not lived with the British national for the whole period during which Treaty rights were exercised. You may, however, find along with other evidence that this leads you to believe it to be a marriage of convenience.

Evidence that the couple have lived together may include:

a registration certificate/residence card issued by the Member State;
tenancy agreements; or,
joint bank statements.

You should seek advice from ECO Support where you are unsure about the decision to be taken in applying the Surinder Singh judgement.

See here...
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front ... ur%20eight

yankeegirl · Post by **yankeegirl** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:54 pm

I absolutely think that getting your wife legally resident in the UK is a good start. The Family Permit process to the UK is a fairly straightforward process, I am here on it myself lol.

Also, you do have two routes to bring your wife to Ireland once you are ready to relocate. EU1 using your British passport, or D-spouse visa (I think that's the name of it) as you also are an Irish citizen. I'm not quite sure how the spouse visa process works, but I think that can be a bit of a headache as well. So, I guess clock up a bit of legal residence in the UK with your wife and then you can look into which option would be easiest. Hopefully, by the time you are ready to make the move, the Irish will have sorted out the mess that has been created with the EU1 process. Good luck!

Post by **JAJ** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:35 pm

yankeegirl wrote:Also, you do have two routes to bring your wife to Ireland once you are ready to relocate. EU1 using your British passport, or D-spouse visa (I think that's the name of it) as you also are an Irish citizen. I'm not quite sure how the spouse visa process works, but I think that can be a bit of a headache as well. So, I guess clock up a bit of legal residence in the UK with your wife and then you can look into which option would be easiest.

The easiest option is for wife to become a naturalised British citizen and then move to the ROI on a British passport.

joesoap101 · Post by **joesoap101** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:48 pm

I agree with JAJ, this is by far the most sensible option because the 3 years you spend in the UK will save you a lifetime of troubles with the Irish immigration system. However this is a bit different, you will have to bring your wife to the UK under a different set of rules than the EEA route, so that she can obtain citizenship after 3 years of marriage to a British citizen.

yankeegirl · Post by **yankeegirl** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:59 pm

I totally agree with you both. That's why my husband and I are staying put in Northern Ireland until I'm eligible to obtain either Irish or British citizenship. But, from Limey's previous posts, he's looking to relocate to Ireland fairly soon.

However this is a bit different, you will have to bring your wife to the UK under a different set of rules than the EEA route, so that she can obtain citizenship after 3 years of marriage to a British citizen.

Just out of pure curiosity, couldn't the "ppron method" work if his wife was to come to the UK inder the EEA rules?

limey · Post by **limey** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:11 pm

Yankee: Yes I am aware of the ppron method and know that people have travlelled from the UK to Dublin in order to lodge an application at the British Embassy there. I know this can also be done before the 5 years is up too and so is quicker.

As soon as my wife becomes legally resident in the UK using the EEA Family Permit then we can relocate to Ireland under the EEA Family Permit scheme then without having to wait for the 5 years anyway!

limey · Post by **limey** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:25 pm

The other question is whether the 6-7 months my wife and I have lived together in the UK would already qualify as living together in another EU/EEA country?

Or, does this need to be immediately prior to the Family Permit application to live in Ireland?

Post by **JAJ** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:06 am

limey wrote: As soon as my wife becomes legally resident in the UK using the EEA Family Permit then we can relocate to Ireland under the EEA Family Permit scheme then without having to wait for the 5 years anyway!

But she doesn't get a British passport this way.

limey · Post by **limey** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:43 am

JAJ: She wouldn't need one as the Irish passport would be fine!

Post by **JAJ** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:46 am

limey wrote:JAJ: She wouldn't need one as the Irish passport would be fine!

Your choice. But do appreciate that the wait for an Irish passport will likely be much longer. As you are an Irish citizen, she can apply for naturalisation after 3 years but the processing times run up to 2-3 years currently.

British citizenship (for spouses of British citizens) also takes a 3 year wait, however the processing time is a few months rather than years.

limey · Post by **limey** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:53 am

JAK: I know but that would mean having to live in the UK for 3 years longer than we would like to!

Post by **JAJ** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:19 am

limey wrote:JAK: I know but that would mean having to live in the UK for 3 years longer than we would like to!

Once again - your choice.
Why not get best of both worlds and live in Northern Ireland?

For spouses of Irish citizens, time in Northern Ireland counts for naturalisation as an Irish citizen. And she can become naturalised British too.

And you don't need to ever deal with the Irish immigration system.

limey · Post by **limey** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:31 pm

JAJ: I know that is very sound advice you are giving.

But we don't particularly want to live in Ulster and also we don't want to be flitting around too much if we can help it.

Ideally, we want to get settled ASAP in order to start a family. We have already put this off long enough and her biological menopausal clock is already ticking. So we cant afford to wait too long!

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:50 am

It seems to me you are trying for a very convoluted route to get your wife residency in Ireland. Why not use your Irish citizenship and try for the D-Spouse visa now, and see what the outcome is? You could apply for the EEA Family to the UK at the same time. If your wife was granted the D-Spouse visa, you wouldnt have to go through this move to the UK, then 2nd move to Ireland. Or am I missing something?

limey · Post by **limey** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:50 pm

Scrudu: Can I apply for the D spouse visa without being resident in Ireland? If so, I would certainly do that. Though I would also need my Irish passport for the EEA Family permit in the UK.

One advantage with the EEA Family Permits is that they are not as strict and allow more time out of the country which my wife would have to do at times.

Also, there is the small complication of having a house to sell in the UK first. Which is not always so easy!

scrudu · Post by **scrudu** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:03 pm

Limey: No you do not need to be resident in Ireland for your wife to make such an application. You will not need to submit your Irish Passport, only copies of certain pages of the passport.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying EEA Family Permits are not as strict. As strict as what? As for allowing more time out of the country. Are you worried about a future Citizenship application or getting a future extension granted?

If a D-Spouse Visa is granted, it will be a Single Entry 3 month visa. On entering Ireland, your wife will have to register with the GNIB to get her Stamp 4 & GNIB card. She can then apply for a Re-Entry visa which allows free movement in and out of the country. She can also work immediately on being granted the Stamp 4. Do note that if the D-Spouse visa is granted, your wife must enter within 3 months of the visa being granted or else the visa will have expired.

As the spouse of an Irish citizen your wife will be entitled to apply for citizenship after 3 years, which is 2 years shorter than if she goes the EEA route.

As I said in my other post on this topic, be aware the D-Spouse visa is not a "simple" route. But it is another avenue you could be exploring now, and if you are successful it could be a lot shorter than your wife moving to UK for 6 months, then on to Ireland.

See more info at:
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Do ... %20Ireland
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000227

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EEA Family Permit route previously resident in EU country

EEA Family Permit route previously resident in EU country