Buying a new business in the extension stage of £50k Tier 1 Entrepreneur route

[marcnath]

Ok thanks, so along with the requirements from Table F, we will also again need to submit the documentation from pages 24-30 Bar the fact that we don't need to show investment evidence as I was awarded my current visa based on this papertrail.

And finally, if I show the net increase then it's alright it's in the 12 months prior to the next application as opposed to the 24 months before settlement?

Unfortunately, I have to keep repeating myself - there is NO guidance as to how net increase is defined/calculated.

They ask for evidence of 12 months prior to the DATE YOU JOINED the business, so it is a fair assumption that is the information they will use as they don't have access to employee numbers other than that. It does not stop them from asking more information but I can't see them making more work for themselves.

[Anontier20]

Hey,

It's not the lack of confidence or the genuineness of my applications, it's more the conflicting information I am getting from everywhere including my immigration lawyer who keeps insisting I use company A eventhough company B is the more profitable one etc, only because company A was where the original £50k went into and the papertrail up until now was submitted for company A. He doesn't want me to switch it up to company B for the settlement application, as company B according to home office records has never been seen before.

Do you think HO would look at an application and wonder why someone hired 2 job roles in the middle of a national lockdown when people are in fact closing shops/ letting staff go? Looking at this from every angle possible now, as furlough options don't exist for company A, as noone has been on payroll the past 6 months, I was waiting for my shop fit out to finish and then put staff back in and that was meant to be 15th April 2020.

[marcnath]

Hey,

It's not the lack of confidence or the genuineness of my applications, it's more the conflicting information I am getting from everywhere including my immigration lawyer who keeps insisting I use company A eventhough company B is the more profitable one etc, only because company A was where the original £50k went into and the papertrail up until now was submitted for company A. He doesn't want me to switch it up to company B for the settlement application, as company B according to home office records has never been seen before.

Do you think HO would look at an application and wonder why someone hired 2 job roles in the middle of a national lockdown when people are in fact closing shops/ letting staff go? Looking at this from every angle possible now, as furlough options don't exist for company A, as noone has been on payroll the past 6 months, I was waiting for my shop fit out to finish and then put staff back in and that was meant to be 15th April 2020.

Don't waste your time trying to guess what HO may or may not think. There is no one in this forum who can do that.

The best approach is to just run your business as any good business person would, keep your eye on the requirements and try to satisfy that.

Keep an eye out for announcements to see if HO will relax any requirements but don't hold your breath for that.

The requirement is only that you have 12 months of job creation within the 24 months of an extension period, so most people would still be able to meet the requirement unless this business downturn period extends for close to 12 months. There would be exceptions where people have not hired in the first part of the extension period but I suspect this will be a minority.

[Anontier20]

Ok, so going with your suggestion:
Company A to prove director position, bank statements and original investment
Company B for 2 jobs and payslips, RTI, FPS.

I am in the 12 month window as visa expires May 2021 so will just have to carry on business as usual and manage until things resume back to normal.
Sound ok now?

[marcnath]

Ok, so going with your suggestion:
Company A to prove director position, bank statements and original investment
Company B for 2 jobs and payslips, RTI, FPS.

I am in the 12 month window as visa expires May 2021 so will just have to carry on business as usual and manage until things resume back to normal.
Sound ok now?

ok

[Anontier20]

So mods, as requested by your colleague- I'm coping the question here:
Re: Re-engage an old employee & meeting job creation rules
Post by Anontier20 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:32 pm

Hi Mods,

On the back of the OP's question, what if you hire someone who was with you a while ago in 2018 but had to leave as she was in the family way and wasn't keeping well so decided to quit but now wants to come back, she was with me for 2 months and left, would this look odd now? Her child is at nursery now so she can work with less restrictions. Thoughts?

[Anontier20]

For point 3 on page 33 You have:
(a) established a new business or businesses that has or have created the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers,
or
(b) taken over or invested in an existing business or businesses and your
services or investment have resulted in a net increase in the employment
provided by the business or businesses for settled workers by creating the
equivalent of at least 2 new full time jobs for settled workers
The jobs must have existed for at least 12 months during your most recent
grant of leave or, where that leave was granted less than 12 months ago, for at
least the 12 months immediately before the date of your current application.

I don't fit into either category for this, the business has always been there since 2017.

Since there is no clear definition of what "taken over or invested" means, you have depend on the evidence required to demonstrate this criteria.

You will find that in Page 25 of the guidance under the para that starts with
You must also provide the following specified documents to show you have established a new UK business, or joined and are engaged in business in the UK when you make your application:

So, the date from which you can provide the evidence is when you would be considered to have "taken over or invested in". And that date then determines whether it is a new or existing business.

You are not looking for english language definitions but definitions interpreted in the rules.

Again, for more qualified advice consult a lawyer.

Hi Marcnath,
This is just a thought. out loud musings as it were- if an individual has spent the £50k on Tier 1 Entrp on one business, but then bought or set up an additional one with extra funds not relevant to the applications, then how does it actually matter for- Page 25 of the guidance under the para that starts with
You must also provide the following specified documents to show you have established a new UK business, or joined and are engaged in business in the UK when you make your application:
It's assumed isn't it that the £50k has been all spent and a business is surviving through it's revenue?
Is this the difference between Entp visa vs Investor visa?

[marcnath]

You are right that the quoted section relates to Business activity and not job creation.

So that gives you potential for challenging HO legally if you are willing to take the risk and bear the costs. It will then be up to the court to make the definitive interpretation whether that definition applies to job creation also (which would be the logical conclusion).

You seem to want to keep finding loopholes and I am not sure why. If you are going to depend on loopholes to have your application approved, you are starting from a disadvantage.

[Anontier20]

Hey,

Not looking for loopholes, just occurred to me as a bit of a counter productive guidelines, as in one part they don't need to see the investment documentation again, therein won't know if I've spent £50k, £75k or £200k as they don't ask for this, so one could join/ take over several businesses outside of the original investment, but then don't have to actually create a net increase in jobs so to speak because their initial company has shown it had the jobs in place. Anyway what will be will be. I am going to go with what you suggested, Company A to show the £50k investment and Company B for my jobs.

[marcnath]

Hey,

Not looking for loopholes, just occurred to me as a bit of a counter productive guidelines, as in one part they don't need to see the investment documentation again, therein won't know if I've spent £50k, £75k or £200k as they don't ask for this, so one could join/ take over several businesses outside of the original investment, but then don't have to actually create a net increase in jobs so to speak because their initial company has shown it had the jobs in place. Anyway what will be will be. I am going to go with what you suggested, Company A to show the £50k investment and Company B for my jobs.

Not sure if there is something counter productive. Not fully defined in some places, yes.

You are only required to provide evidence that meets the minimum requirements set out.

So, once the extension has been granted (investment shown), any additional investment, business, etc. is up to you. HO does not need to know about it and there is no need to provide those documentation.

Similarly, if you have the same jobs continuing in the first company, whatever jobs you create elsewhere does not matter. Again, there is no need to report those to HO or provide any documentation for that.

Based on your queries, I have assumed you did not have 2 jobs in the original company and needed to use job(s) from the 2nd company. And where the 2nd company is one you have joined, you need to show NET increase in jobs.

But this post seems to indicate that " ..initial company has shown it had the jobs in place.." If that is the case, the whole discussion on your second company was irrelevant.

[Anontier20]

You're not completely incorrect, if you read some of my posts you will see that company A wasn't doing well and I didn't want staff for the sake of it on it, but company B which I have not joined but have owned since 2017, but was never declared to HO in past applications ( as investment amount was additional) has been doing extremely well and justified the salaries, well until covid-19 hit, so that's where these queries were raised from to see how to utilise the situation I have to hand which is unique to my business and the points/ guidelines. This is all. Nevertheless as you have said you can use different papers from different companies, and as you're certain it's worked for you and many others this is the process I will follow.

[marcnath]

You're not completely incorrect, if you read some of my posts you will see that company A wasn't doing well and I didn't want staff for the sake of it on it, but company B which I have not joined but have owned since 2017, but was never declared to HO in past applications ( as investment amount was additional) has been doing extremely well and justified the salaries, well until covid-19 hit, so that's where these queries were raised from to see how to utilise the situation I have to hand which is unique to my business and the points/ guidelines. This is all. Nevertheless as you have said you can use different papers from different companies, and as you're certain it's worked for you and many others this is the process I will follow.

Yes, you can use different companies.

However, you have to be a director of the company to be able to use the job creation. And if I recall, you were not a director of the 2nd company. Do you still have 12 months to go if you become a director now ?

The document requirement on Pg 29 says:

(f) If you were a director of a UK company or member of a UK partnership at the time the settled worker was employed by your business, a printout from Companies House of the company’s filing history page and of your personal appointments history, showing this.

That seems to be a clear indication that they will only use job creation at the time you were a Director.

[Anontier20]

Yes, but easy to become director, you just submit an AP01 and backdate it to whatever date one needs. So it'll be covered as well within my 12 months window as visa is 2nd May 2021.

[marcnath]

Yes, but easy to become director, you just submit an AP01 and backdate it to whatever date one needs. So it'll be covered as well within my 12 months window as visa is 2nd May 2021.

I am not sure you can backdate it. You need to submit the CAR which will show the date of filing - HO specifically asks for that for that reason.

[Anontier20]

CAR? Either way I'll just make sure the papertrail for both companies match the requirements for table F. Thanks!

[marcnath]

If you are on a Tier 1 Entrepreneur visa and your business has been disrupted
You no longer need to employ at least 2 people for 12 consecutive months each. The 12 month period you are required to employ someone for can be made up of multiple employees across different months.

Time when your employees were furloughed will not count towards the 12 month period.

If have not been able to employ staff for 12 months in total by the time your visa expires, you will be allowed to temporarily extend your stay to give you time to meet the requirement.

[Anontier20]

Do you have any idea if they will be updating the the guidelines to reflect this for our use?

[Anontier20]

What did you mean by CAR?

[marcnath]

Do you have any idea if they will be updating the the guidelines to reflect this for our use?

No, I don't. But this is on the gov.uk website, so this can be used

[Anontier20]

Reposting here since your colleague get annoyed when I post on other's pages, even though many may have the same question.

Please can you explain How would this work? Are you able to illustrate with an example? Is it better to grin and bear it for 2 jobs and 30 plus hours then go in for in extension and the trauma and costs in entails? If you are able to pay the 2 jobs and the 30 plus hours, shall we just carry on?
I don't think I actually understand this, so is it similar to the transitional agreement, just one job/ one staff member to qualify for the points? Or they still want 2 jobs, just with an extension option if requirements not met? For eg, if my visa is expiring 2nd May 2021, with no employees so far, what should I do to ensure I can apply for settlement?

[marcnath]

What did you mean by CAR?

CAR - current appointment report. You need to submit this with your application and it shows the filing history of all applications with the companies house. So, irrespective of what date you enter as the appointment as a Director, it will show exactly when it was filed with companies house and HO is likely to take that as your joining date.

[marcnath]

Reposting here since your colleague get annoyed when I post on other's pages, even though many may have the same question.

Please can you explain How would this work? Are you able to illustrate with an example? Is it better to grin and bear it for 2 jobs and 30 plus hours then go in for in extension and the trauma and costs in entails? If you are able to pay the 2 jobs and the 30 plus hours, shall we just carry on?
I don't think I actually understand this, so is it similar to the transitional agreement, just one job/ one staff member to qualify for the points? Or they still want 2 jobs, just with an extension option if requirements not met? For eg, if my visa is expiring 2nd May 2021, with no employees so far, what should I do to ensure I can apply for settlement?

The additional update I posted has a couple of things.
What is clear is that:
1. Furloughed employees cannot count towards the job creation.
2. If you are short of job creation because of this, you can get an extension to your current visa until you have time to make up for the shortfall.

That seems to be quite a fair approach. So, if your business can't afford to employ the people, you don't have to. You can do that when things recover and you can - you just need to get your visa extended. It does not appear that they have specified the process for that yet, but I suspect they will come up with something relatively simple.

What is unclear is their statement about not needing 12 months consecutive employment. It does not make sense since that was never a requirement in the first place. I suspect they meant you will no longer need a job to last 12 months but instead you can combine 2 jobs of 6 months each to make that up. But it is something that will need further clarification - which I expect will be done before these would need to be used.

[Anontier20]

Thanks. This is why I was confused to as it seems contradictory, is it that we only have 1 job for 1 year or still got to have 2 jobs ? The 6 months here, and 6 months elsewhere has always been in place, I used that for my extension application so I know they do accept this. It's all a bit vague and agreed,it's fair(ish) but would make me less nervous if they updated the guidelines with the same info. It feels as we've been an after thought, so let's see what happens and if they have further updates.

[Anontier20]

What I can't seem to get my head around is:

Does this mean we don't now need 2 jobs?
One job but how many staff is multiple staff?
If you get have the one staff for the one job for 12 months, can you still go ahead and apply for IRL or do you need to extend, do the 12 months with the 2 jobs at 30 hours plus and then apply for ILR?

So vague don't you think?

[marcnath]

What I can't seem to get my head around is:

Does this mean we don't now need 2 jobs?
One job but how many staff is multiple staff?
If you get have the one staff for the one job for 12 months, can you still go ahead and apply for IRL or do you need to extend, do the 12 months with the 2 jobs at 30 hours plus and then apply for ILR?

So vague don't you think?

There is NO relaxation of the requirement of 2 jobs of 12 months each. If you have not been able to meet that requirement, your visa can be extended until you meet it.