EEA FP Application in Poland

[gehrig]

Hello. First post on this very useful forum.

I've applied for an EEA FP on the basis of my wife intending to be a job-seeker. Had my appointment at the British Embassy in Warsaw on 9 May. No word back yet.

I'm a national of the USA, my wife is Polish. We've lived together since 2008 in Poland, married since Sep 2011.

I was told to wait up to 15 days, but I notice that not 100% of applications are processed in 15 days. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/count ... ableAnchor
Any reasons for a long processing time?

I'd like to apply for a job in the UK, the position closes on May 31 and Day 15 of my application will be May 30. Should I apply for the job now or wait till word back from the embassy re. the FP?

Anything I should do but sit and wait for the embassy to contact me hopefully before the job opening I'm aiming for closes?

Many thanks!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

What did you submit with your application beyond the two passports and the marriage certificate?

What keeps you from applying for the position today? Is there any reason to delay?

[gehrig]

Thanks for the reply. In addition to your post, I submitted:

covering letter from my wife stating: she is seeking a job and intends to move to UK, together with me.
copies of my temp RC in Poland. Wife's national ID card (Polish)
Photos of my wife and her child (from a prev rel. but currently with my name) from the last four years
Printouts of my wife's profile on monster.co.uk showing active search for a job + emails of her applying to jobs in the UK
Photos of flat we bought and fitted out + bills addressed to both of us of the flat we co-own since Aug 2011
Bank account registration co-owned by my wife and me
My wife's registration a self-employed entrepreneur in Poland + her previous work contract
Copies of my CV and qualifications + invitation to a job interview in UK

I got conflicting advice about whether to include more docs than strictly asked for by the embassy. In the end decided to submit more to prove: legitimate marriage and relationship + strong employment prospects.

I previously applied and interviewed and was told by employer in UK that I "am the preferred candidate" but they can't hire me without "a spouse visa". I know it's not the right name for the EEA FP, but not sure how well the employer knows the law re: EEA family.

[gehrig]

Just to clarify the last paragraph.

I applied and interviewed for a job in the UK in complete ignorance of the existence of an EEA FP. After the interview the employer told me i was a "preferred candidate" but they couldn't offer me a job unless I could show eligibility to work in the UK. So they didn't hire anyone, re-posted the job opening and told me to sort out my eligibility and apply again.

Thanks again for the reply.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Your EU national spouse status is very important. Generally, if she is a worker (self-employed or even seeking work), student or self-sufficient, then you will also have a right to work in the UK.

The easiest way to show your entitlement is to have Certificate of Application (COA), which you will get after applying for a residence card in the UK. You will not be eligible for this unless your EU wife is exercising treaty rights.

An employer might accept a family permit in lieu.

As a US citizen, you are not a visa national and could have entered the UK without a family permit. This would not have affected your ability to apply for a residence card.

[gehrig]

Thanks EUsmile for that response.

What I'm wondering about is you say an employer "might" accept a FP. What I've read is that a family permit does allow me to work from Day 1 entering the UK -not "might". Is it down to the employer knowing the law? Or me convincing them of my eligibility.

My plan would be to enter on an FM and then
immediately apply for a residence card ASAP on moving.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

...What I'm wondering about is you say an employer "might" accept a FP...

Strictly speaking the family member of an EU citizen living under the terms of directive does not need any particular documentation in order to be allowed to work (it says so in article 25 of the directive; article 23 talks about the right to work).

However, there are penalties for employers in the UK who employ a worker who is not entitled to work. Many will be reluctant to employ a third country national without good evidence that the person is entitled to work.

The COA takes the form of a letter written by the home office and explicitly says that the person is allowed to work provided that the employer phones a special helpline number (or cannot work in some cases). The residence card also explicitly says that person can work. The family permit is silent on permission to work.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

...and then
immediately apply for a residence card ASAP on moving.

That would be good practice.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Your EU national spouse status is very important. Generally, if she is a worker (self-employed or even seeking work), student or self-sufficient, then you will also have a right to work in the UK.

The easiest way to show your entitlement is to have Certificate of Application (COA), which you will get after applying for a residence card in the UK. You will not be eligible for this unless your EU wife is exercising treaty rights.

An employer might accept a family permit in lieu.

As a US citizen, you are not a visa national and could have entered the UK without a family permit. This would not have affected your ability to apply for a residence card.

I think saying that an employer "might" accept an EEA FP is a little misleading.

Also, the whole point is that the applicant can have proof of their right to work right now. Entering without an EEA Family Permit delays that proof unless they do an RC application, and then for 2-4 weeks after that while the COA arrives.

[gehrig]

Many thanks to EUsmileWEallsmile and Directive/2004/38/EC for the very helpful replies.

I think Directive's last reply is very to the point - I want to have evidence of eligibility to work as soon as I enter the UK, without waiting for a COA to be issued.

In this way, I can apply for jobs from abroad while possessing documentation of my eligibility.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Another option is to get a Stamp 1A as you enter the country, but make sure it is VERY clearly stamped to allow you to work. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I think saying that an employer "might" accept an EEA FP is a little misleading.

It is my personal opinion having read guidance (comprehensive or otherwise) on preventing illegal working that a family permit is not going to give an employer a statuary excuse if it later transpires that the holder was not entitled to work. It is maybe less likely that an employer will be fined for taking on a family permit holder as the family member of an EU national legally living in the UK is not subject to the legislation. That's all well and good, but an employer may not know that and might decide to employ someone with stronger evidence.

At least a family permit demonstrates that one was considered to be a family member. So from that point of view it may be helpful.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

...without waiting for a COA to be issued...

The COA is explicit and will give your employer a statutory excuse.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Just to clarify the last paragraph.

... the interview the employer told me i was a "preferred candidate" but they couldn't offer me a job unless I could show eligibility to work in the UK...and told me to sort out my eligibility and apply again...

I have an idea that may save you some grief. Why don't you ask the prospective employer if they would be prepared to accept a family permit as proof of entitlement to work in the UK?

Start here

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/busin ... ost280208/

and

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Your EU national spouse status is very important. Generally, if she is a worker (self-employed or even seeking work), student or self-sufficient, then you will also have a right to work in the UK.

...and please remember this! Your status will depend on it.

Best of luck.

[Jambo]

It is my personal opinion having read guidance (comprehensive or otherwise) on preventing illegal working that a family permit is not going to give an employer a statuary excuse

We both have expressed our disagreement on this issue in a few occasions in the past already. I believe you base your opinion on the fact that the words "Family Permit" are not in the comprehensive guide although the guide does state on page 35:

A residence card or document issued by the Home Office, the Border and Immigration Agency, or the UK Border Agency to a family member of a national of a European Economic Area country or Switzerland.

and include an example of the FP.

I would imagine it should satisfy any employer.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

We both have expressed our disagreement on this issue in a few occasions in the past already. I believe you base your opinion on the fact that the words "Family Permit" are not in the comprehensive guide although the guide does state on page 35

If you look really closely at the family permit in the picture, it is in fact one issued under the 2000 regs. Look at the dates on the card carefully. Also the accompanying stamp is not given nowadays (perhaps it was in the past, but I've no example).

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Also please read the questions section, in particular Q14 and Q's 39 to 44 (starts on page 48).

Part of Q14

You should not employ any individual solely on the basis of their claim to belong to one of these groups – this will place you at risk of employing someone illegally if their claims are false. You should establish an excuse for all of your prospective employees by following the guidance detailed on pages 8-10

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Incidentally, I would be more that happy to be wrong and sympathise with employers on this issue. Big nasty stick, no carrot.

[Jambo]

If you look really closely at the family permit in the picture, it is in fact one issued under the 2000 regs. Look at the dates on the card carefully. Also the accompanying stamp is not given nowadays (perhaps it was in the past, but I've no example).

I'm not sure they had the new (current) format of the FP when this guide was published.
The stamp is not an accompanying stamp but how the Family Permit looked liked before it was issued on a vignette. This was at least the case in 2003.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I'm not sure they had the new (current) format of the FP when this guide was published.

I expect they did, because there are residence cards, etc. These did not exist under the old regime.

The stamp is not an accompanying stamp but how the Family Permit looked liked before it was issued on a vignette. This was at least the case in 2003.

Ok, so it actually part of the permit, interesting

I am not disputing the legality or right of an EEA family permit holder to work (assuming their EU family member is living and exercising treaty rights), for me it's all about convincing an employer. An employer with a choice of equally competent candidates might pick the one that's lowest risk to him in terms of legality.

[gehrig]

I have an idea that may save you some grief. Why don't you ask the prospective employer if they would be prepared to accept a family permit as proof of entitlement to work in the UK?

Very good point.

When the prospective employer told me that I needed a "spouse visa" when I asked if they would accept an EEA FP, I suspected that they didn't know this area of the law too well. So along with just asking them, I would like to present them a reference to a regulation stating what the EEA FP allows regarding employment.

I suppose it would be too much to ask the UKBA to make employment eligibility explicit on the FB vignette. As far as whether my spouse is exercising treaty rights, thus giving me eligibility, I assume this is part of the application review when the UKBA processes my application for an EEA FP. They certainly are doing something that's causing them to keep my EEA FP application for 15 days and counting . . .

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Why don't you ask the prospective employer if they would be prepared to accept a family permit as proof of entitlement to work in the UK?

If I was an employer and somebody used those words to me, it would set off all sorts of alarm bells in my head.

I would never use those words if you want to end up with a "your hired" answer.

You do have a right to work in the UK (or will when you are there with your EEA spouse). That is a fact. EEA Family Permit says so on the face of it. The employer can always, if they have any doubt, contact the Employer checking service

[gehrig]

Good point as well about the wording when I present my application + eligibility to them.

Thanks to EUsmile for the specific links. Anyone know a link to a picture of the current EEA FP vignette and the wording? Searched but didn't find one.

[gehrig]

As an update, I received a call from the UK Embassy in Warsaw letting me know that the EEA FP has been issued. They will ship my passport to my city in Poland by courier.

Date of application: 9 May
Date FP processed: 24 May

Next step is to apply for the job, informing the employer that I am eligible, and hoping they'll know the difference between this and a spouse visa.

Will update about that.