EEA FP Application in Poland

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Will update about that.

Please do.

Now that you have the EEA family permit, you can try and use that. I hope your future employer accepts it.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

[quote="Directive/2004/38/EC"...The employer can always, if they have any doubt, contact the Employer checking service...[/quote]

I hate to be a pain, but if one reads through the detail, the checking service is only open to certain categories.

...The employer checking service can:

check the individual's right to work if they have an outstanding application or appeal with us; or
validate an application registration card (ARC); or
validate a certificate of application.
The service cannot confirm the individual's right to work in the UK if they do not meet the above criteria...

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/busin ... /ecsstep2/

[gehrig]

Right, I think I actually knew that about the employer checking service.

The UKBA clearly doesn't make it easy to understand that entering, accompanied by my spouse, on an EEA FP allows employment.

I wonder if a letter from a solicitor explaining the eligibility would be a good investment?

[Jambo]

Right, I think I actually knew that about the employer checking service.

The UKBA clearly doesn't make it easy to understand that entering, accompanied by my spouse, on an EEA FP allows employment.

I wonder if a letter from a solicitor explaining the eligibility would be a good investment?

You can tell the employer you have a "EU spouse visa". Maybe this term would sounds more employable. My experience is that if you hold something which looks official like a vignette in your passport, the employer would be satisfied. But this is only my own experience.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

If the employer reads the following guidance, he may be satisfied.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... s/#header2

Employment

If you are a national of Bulgaria or Romania, you must obtain our permission in order to work here. You should read the pages for Bulgarian and Romanian nationals for details.

If you are a national of any other EEA country or Switzerland, you will not need to apply for our permission in order to work here.

You and your family members can:

accept offers of work
work as an employee and/or in self-employment
set up a business
manage a company
set up a local branch of a company

You can also do all these types of work if you are studying in the UK.

Your employer should not discriminate against you because of your nationality in terms of conditions of employment, pay or working conditions.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... ts-family/

But then again there is this.

Do you need to apply?

You do not need to obtain documents confirming your right of residence in the UK if you are a family member of an EEA national.

However, you may be inconvenienced if you do not obtain this confirmation, as:

you may have difficulty proving that you are lawfully resident in the UK;
if you leave the UK, you will usually need to obtain an EEA family permit before returning here, in order to guarantee readmission as the family member of a qualified EEA national; and
you may find it difficult to obtain or change employment.

Choose a heading below to show more information.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

My personal advice is move to the UK with your family. Pursue your employment option and in parallel apply for RC (state on your application that you need COA urgently to confirm work entitlement).

Please make sure that your wife has a strong claim to be exercising treaty rights for a speedy decision. Being a job-seeker is possible, but she may have a stronger claim as a self-sufficient person (in terms of available evidence rather than law).

[gehrig]

If the employer reads the following guidance, he may be satisfied.

Thanks for that reference. That's very useful. I certainly do intend to apply for a RC (and thus receive a COA) ASAP.

Moving to the UK immediately would certainly be the best way to go, in a perfect world, as far as getting the COA ASAP. Though I understand even that takes a couple of weeks. But I have a tight window for applying for this job and we're not in a position to move to the UK until I've secured employment. I can now see that the way things are set up makes it "inconvenient" for someone in my place. Making the EEA FP more explicit regarding employment eligibility would be "convenient" Of course my wife is exercising her treaty rights but my job is in practical terms controlling this move.

We have a family and mortgage here in Poland, and we're not moving to the UK for the general reason of living in the UK, but because I've found a particular and unique job that I'm qualified for. I would really prefer to make sure I get an employment offer before moving.

There is of course the question of how the prospective employer understands my status.

They require me to produce a document in something called "List A or List B - Prevention of Illegal Working". The EEA FP seems to fall under List B:

5. A residence card or document issued by the Home Office or the Border and Immigration Agency to a family member of a national of a European Economic Area country or Switzerland.

in the list they supplied me.

[Jambo]

They require me to produce a document in something called "List A or List B - Prevention of Illegal Working". The EEA FP seems to fall under List B:

5. A residence card or document issued by the Home Office or the Border and Immigration Agency to a family member of a national of a European Economic Area country or Switzerland.

in the list they supplied me.

If you check page 35 of the Comprehensive guidance you will find that text exactly. You will also find an image of the EEA Family Permit (although an old version of it. The new version looks like this) -

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

They require me to produce a document in something called "List A or List B - Prevention of Illegal Working". The EEA FP seems to fall under List B:

The statutory instrument can be found here and is the source legislation of list A and list B.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007 ... edule/made

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

If you check page 35]

Sorry, posting at the same time!

It was never the pictures in the guidance that gave me doubt that a family permit would give an employer who employed a worker who was not entitled to work an excuse.

It's the words in the statutory instrument.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007 ... edule/made

Why would they go to so much trouble insisting that the employer of a COA holder had to undergo the checking service, but an EEA family permit holder not? It doesn't make sense. Unless perhaps that they did not intend for a family permit to be an excuse. Just my opinion.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

It is noteworthy that the UK appears to have failed to transpose article 23 of the directive (if they had, it would perhaps make life easier for the OP).

[gehrig]

Unless perhaps that they did not intend for a family permit to be an excuse.

I wonder if my theory is correct. My theory is:

The EEA Regulations clearly state that EEA Nationals and their spouses have the right to free movement, including employment.

The UK government doesn't necessarily like this, but they have to obey. In obeying, they have decided to make things a bit obscure to cut down on the number of people taking advantage of EEA privileges.

Just my theory, having been caught up a little in the UKBA process.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

We have a family and mortgage here in Poland, and we're not moving to the UK for the general reason of living in the UK, but because I've found a particular and unique job that I'm qualified for.

Ok, so it sounds like maybe you are chasing a dream job. Perhaps your employer is struggling to find a qualified candidate. Perhaps you are a good match.

If that's the case, maybe you should reconsider my suggestion that you approach the potential employer. Make it clear that you will have a right to work in the UK as the spouse of an EU national. You have a family permit. You can show him all the legislation and guidance that they need to see. You would let them know that you will apply for Residence Card as soon as you can.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I wonder if my theory is correct. My theory is:

The EEA Regulations clearly state that EEA Nationals and their spouses have the right to free movement, including employment.

The UK government doesn't necessarily like this, but they have to obey. In obeying, they have decided to make things a bit obscure to cut down on the number of people taking advantage of EEA privileges.

Just my theory, having been caught up a little in the UKBA process.

Well, the source of the law, ie the Directive is unequivocal, article 23 says;

Irrespective of nationality, the family members of a Union citizen who have the right of residence or the right of permanent residence in a Member State shall be entitled to take up employment or self-employment there.

However, the UK did not transpose this particular article into their domestic regulations.

While the laws on prevention of illegal working do not apply to EU nationals or their family members if the EU national is exercising treaty rights, an employer may be concerned that he may be fined for employing someone who is not entitled to work.

An employer will look to the guidance document for assurance that he won't be fined.

[Jambo]

Why would they go to so much trouble insisting that the employer of a COA holder had to undergo the checking service, but an EEA family permit holder not? It doesn't make sense. Unless perhaps that they did not intend for a family permit to be an excuse. Just my opinion.

Then why would they have the EEA FP as example under item (5) together with the RC?

I would think that CoA alone is not enough because it is just a piece of paper without any ID on it unlike the EEA FP which is in a passport and includes a photo. So the HO requires the employer to call them to verify the CoA is genuine. Otherwise, people will just photocopy a CoA and will be able to find employment.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Why would they go to so much trouble insisting that the employer of a COA holder had to undergo the checking service, but an EEA family permit holder not? It doesn't make sense. Unless perhaps that they did not intend for a family permit to be an excuse. Just my opinion.

Then why would they have the EEA FP as example under item (5) together with the RC?

I would think that CoA alone is not enough because it is just a piece of paper without any ID on it unlike the EEA FP which is in a passport and includes a photo. So the HO requires the employer to call them to verify the CoA is genuine. Otherwise, people will just photocopy a CoA and will be able to find employment.

Maybe you are right, but COA is addressed to an individual and has an address on it so it can't just be copied and passed about (without altering it).

Another question. Sometimes the COA does not entitle the person to work (other family members usually). These people could have family permits and at the same time. Again doesn't tie-up to me.

Do you see though how an employer might become confused? Do you see my concerns from the practical (not legal) point of view?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

...it is just a piece of paper without any ID on it...

I'm not sure if you meant photo-id, but if you did, full birth certificates are acceptable as list A documents for certain holders.

[Jambo]

...it is just a piece of paper without any ID on it...

I'm not sure if you meant photo-id, but if you did, full birth certificates are acceptable as list A documents for certain holders.

Well, this is because there is a big difference between what is required from British citizens (full birth certificate, passport) and foreigners.

[Jambo]

Another question. Sometimes the COA does not entitle the person to work (other family members usually). These people could have family permits and at the same time. Again doesn't tie-up to me.

CoA for OFM doesn't entitle employment because the HO has not examined the relationship. Once this is established, OFM are considered family members and are entitled to work.

If a EEA FP has been issued, then the HO has examined the relationship and so the OFM is considered a family member (and their CoA should entitle them to work).

[gehrig]

EUsmileWEallsmile is an excellent Devil's Advocate. And then Directive or Jambo countering EUsmile gives me good references to strengthen my case. Greatly appreciated info from all sides, I must say.

Yes, it is something of a dream job and a pretty specialized field that I'm a good match for.

So, my plan is to gather the docs that have been referenced on this thread and tell (not ask) the employer why I'm eligible, along with reference to the directive, the comprehensive guidelines and the UKBA website info on the topic. Also have to explain the 6-month "expiry date" on the EEA FP.

Sound reasonable?

[flyboy]

Just a thought. If most British posts overseas can decide on an EEA FP application in less than a month, why can't the Home Office do the same , and instead of sending out COA, why not insert the vignette and send the passport back endorsed with the residence card. It surely can't be that complicated to decide if one is eligible for one or not.

[gehrig]

I suspect there is massive demand for permits and RCs and given the recent state of the economy, the UK government is no hurry to issue large numbers of RCs and permits to foreign nationals. Just a thought.

[Jambo]

Just a thought. If most British posts overseas can decide on an EEA FP application in less than a month, why can't the Home Office do the same , and instead of sending out COA, why not insert the vignette and send the passport back endorsed with the residence card. It surely can't be that complicated to decide if one is eligible for one or not.

This is mainly because the criteria for EEA FP in most cases is very simple - establish relationship between the EEA national and the non-EEA national. For RC, there is also the element of exercising treaty rights which might take longer to decide on.
Also as said, as the legal requirement is 6 months and it is a free application, there isn't a real incentive for the HO to put more resources on this.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Another question. Sometimes the COA does not entitle the person to work (other family members usually). These people could have family permits and at the same time. Again doesn't tie-up to me.

CoA for OFM doesn't entitle employment because the HO has not examined the relationship. Once this is established, OFM are considered family members and are entitled to work.

If a EEA FP has been issued, then the HO has examined the relationship and so the OFM is considered a family member (and their CoA should entitle them to work).

I'm not convinced that COA for other family members who already have had a family permit will give them entitlement to work. I've no direct experience.

Why doesn't my certificate of application give me permission to work while my application is being considered? Close

There may be a number of reasons why we cannot confirm that you have a right to work in the UK. The main reasons are listed below:

If you are seeking to remain in the UK on the basis of caring for a child who is an EEA national, your application is based on your full-time caring responsibilities, so you will not be given permission to work in the UK under the European regulations.
If you are the unmarried partner or an 'extended family member' (such as a brother or sister) of an EEA national, you do not have an automatic right or entitlement to live in the UK with them. Until we have fully considered your application and determined that you qualify under the European regulations, we cannot confirm your right to work in the UK.
If you have not provided satisfactory evidence of your identity or of your relationship to an EEA national, we may need to ask you for additional or alternative evidence. Until we have fully considered your application and determined that you qualify under the European rules, we cannot confirm your right to work in the UK.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... /applying/#

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

This is mainly because the criteria for EEA FP in most cases is very simple - establish relationship between the EEA national and the non-EEA national. For RC, there is also the element of exercising treaty rights which might take longer to decide on.

I'm not sure if this is really relevant. There will be many EEA family permits issued to those who are exercising treaty rights (mine included).

It a very easy check. Employer's letter. Done.