settlement visa via Surinder Singh route

[s1dhart]

Deleted

[Jambo]

To make use of Surinder Singh route, one needs to exercise treaty rights in the member state. It's not just a matter of getting to the consulate directly from the airport to apply. There is no specific period set in the rules on how long you need to exercise treaty rights. 6 months is just a general estimate. Successful applications with shorter periods have been reported (I believe it was around 4 months).

[s1dhart]

Thanks for the response Jambo.

In the above situation, what is involved with exercising the rights. Sorry i am not sure if i correctly understand the whole process.
Could you please help me with the other queries ?

many thanks

[Jambo]

You will need to be either employed or self employed in Ireland for several months.

You described the stages correctly. The whole process would take several months (including time you need to live in Ireland to show you have been working there before returning to the UK).

[vinny]

They may also consider your parents under 8(4) -> 317!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Is it even possible to use Singh to bring in OFMs? Not sure!

[s1dhart]

Is it even possible to use Singh to bring in OFMs? Not sure!

I thought the Singh rule covered the parents, can someone please confirm...

i read few posts where Singh route was recommended even for elderly parents.

Guru's pls advise

[Jambo]

Is it even possible to use Singh to bring in OFMs? Not sure!

But aren't the parents direct family members?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Only if they are "dependent" http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ly-member/

[s1dhart]

Only if they are "dependent" http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ly-member/

Doesnt following cover parents -

(d) the dependent direct relatives in the ascending line and those of the spouse or partner as defined in point (b);
Dependent parents and dependent grandparents of either the EU citizen or of the non-EU spouse or partner. Dependent usually means financially dependent, though there may be other legally reasonable interpretations. For non-dependent parents, see beneficiary below.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Have you described how your parents are dependent on you?

[vinny]

Is it even possible to use Singh to bring in OFMs? Not sure!

See also Unmarried UK/Non-EU couple: EEA2 vs FLR(M) vs ?

[s1dhart]

Vinny/Directive/2004/38/EC

Are you suggesting it is not possible to use this route for parents. My parents are financially dependent on me, advise?

thanks

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You will need to prove that.

Wild ideas follow, which may or may not make sense for you.

If you are serious about this, can I suggest that you schedule a family holiday in Ireland. Get your dependent parents a free movement visa to join you in Ireland. You plan to go slightly before they arrive to greet them (and fulfil the requirements of the visa).

Not only will it be nice to see your parents, but it will jump you through the hoops of proving and fighting (if needed) the embassy for the visa. And you can do that from the comfort of your present house and job.

Once you get that organized, then you can uproot to Ireland and find a job there.

[s1dhart]

Hi Directive/2004/38/EC
Firstly many thanks for the suggestions... I have few more queries below..

Wild ideas follow, which may or may not make sense for you.

If you are serious about this, can I suggest that you schedule a family holiday in Ireland. Get your dependent parents a free movement visa to join you in Ireland. You plan to go slightly before they arrive to greet them (and fulfil the requirements of the visa).

I am not very clear on this part, my query is -

• 1. What is involved in getting my parents free movement visa? Do i apply this at London Irish consulate or the suggestion is to get to Ireland and get the visa at the port ? Is the latter more straight forward ?
  2. They currently have a valid UK type C visitor visa(expires in first week of Oct'12), will this have any implication on getting the free movement visa? i.e can they say on the port that you already have visa under the "Visa Waiver Program" and hence cant issue
  free movement visa.

Not only will it be nice to see your parents, but it will jump you through the hoops of proving and fighting (if needed) the embassy for the visa. And you can do that from the comfort of your present house and job.

Again is this coz we reach the port and then apply or am i missing the point ?

Once you get that organized, then you can uproot to Ireland and find a job there.

I assume that the free movement visa will entitle my parents to stay in Ireland for next three months before they have to apply for residence card... and hence it give me three months to either set up a Ltd company or find employment ?

[Ben]

Is it even possible to use Singh to bring in OFMs? Not sure!

Yes, confirmed here.

Also:

A third country national who is the spouse / civil partner / partner or other family member of a British citizen can be availed by European law if they have resided with the British citizen in another Member state..

[Ben]

Replying on-thread as promised.

Is it completely legal to go to NI and then travel to Ireland?
What do I/they need to do once they are in Ireland?


I dont currently have a job in Ireland (although working on it), I assume we cant apply for resident card till i have a job or study etc...
My other query is will they become illegal once their UK visa runs out or how long do i have to get a job before i can apply for their Residence Card?
Is there some sort of registration certificate i can apply for once i get to Ireland to say we got there on that day to exercise the EU treaty and then they have 3 months from that date before they need to apply for Residence Card.

Importantly, from what you have described, your parents are considered "family members" and not "beneficiaries", in the context of the relevant EU Directive (assuming that they're dependent on you in the UK). This means that they have an automatic right to accompany or join you in Ireland, so long as you maintain a right of residence according to the said Directive.

Entering Ireland from the UK over land is entirely lawful for you and for your parents. According to the Directive, you each need to be in possession of your passports together with documentation to affirm that your parents are indeed your parents and that they are dependent on you.

Once in Ireland, your right (and that of your parents) to reside is unconditional for the first three months. Beyond this, you need to be working, self-employed, engaged in a course of study (with comprehensive sickness insurance cover for all of you) or financially self-sufficient (with comprehensive sickness insurance cover for all of you).

Your parents can apply for a residence card at any time during their period of residence in Ireland according to the directive. If applying within the initial three months of residence, no proof of your exercising a treaty right is required, however be prepared to submit this later, since applications for a residence card take six months in any case.

Your parents will not become "illegal" at any time while they are residing in Ireland in conformity with the Directive and national transposition. See European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) (No. 2) Regulations 2006.

There's no registration certificate or similar, but you can keep some other evidence of when you entered the state if you wish. Perhaps a photograph of one or all of you, on the border, holding up a daily newspaper with a shot of some IRA mural and burnt out Union Jacks in the background? To be honest, it won't become necessary for the purpose of your parents' residence card application in any case.

[s1dhart]

Hi Ben, thanks for the detaied information,
However looking at the FAQ on
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/I% ... ort%20trip

i found this -

I live in Northern Ireland and hold a valid UK visa. Do I need an Irish visa to enter the Republic even on a short trip?

Yes. - You will be required by Immigration Officials at border crossings to show that you hold a valid Irish visa.

another FAQ -

I will be travelling to, or I am already in, another country on a short visit before travelling to Ireland. Can I apply for my Irish visa in the Irish Embassy/Consulate there?

You should apply for a visa in your country of residence. (See Q3). If however, there are valid reasons or extenuating circumstances which prevented you from doing so prior to your departure, you should discuss the matter with staff at the nearest Irish Embassy, Consulate, or Visa Office.

If you have been granted a UK visa please see details of a recently introduced Visa Waiver Programme.

Wouldn't the above cause a problem ?

[Ben]

Hi Ben, thanks for the detaied information,
However looking at the FAQ on
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/I% ... ort%20trip

i found this -

I live in Northern Ireland and hold a valid UK visa. Do I need an Irish visa to enter the Republic even on a short trip?

Yes. - You will be required by Immigration Officials at border crossings to show that you hold a valid Irish visa.

another FAQ -

I will be travelling to, or I am already in, another country on a short visit before travelling to Ireland. Can I apply for my Irish visa in the Irish Embassy/Consulate there?

You should apply for a visa in your country of residence. (See Q3). If however, there are valid reasons or extenuating circumstances which prevented you from doing so prior to your departure, you should discuss the matter with staff at the nearest Irish Embassy, Consulate, or Visa Office.

If you have been granted a UK visa please see details of a recently introduced Visa Waiver Programme.

Wouldn't the above cause a problem ?

Pay no attention to any of that. None of it makes consideration for the free movement rights that EU nationals and their family members have.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I love Irish visa stuff. A refusal back in 2005, and that got me started in all this.

There are two independent reasons the family member should be admitted to Ireland without a visa. (1) is the Common Travel Area. UKBA clearly communicates that if you have a visa to Ireland as a family member of an EU citizen, then you do not need a visa to enter the UK (see http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/n ... mber_entry)

Also http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/ means that if you are a direct family member, then you can always enter even if they insist you actually do need a visa.

BUT: The dependent parent is not something so easily proven with a simple certificate. So making sure your evidence is very high quality is especially important, as is knowing the law! Note that evidence needed includes the birth certificate and maybe marriage certificate that links the parent to the EU citizen.

[s1dhart]

Thanks for the detailed response Ben, Directive/2004/38/EC

I came across this pdf while going through the europa.eu -
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/fil ... _ec_en.pdf
On pg 7 in section - "Rules for your family members" it states -

Your family members, who are Union citizens themselves, are
covered by the very same rules.
Those family members who are not nationals of a Member State
(so-called third country family members) may enter the host Member State with a valid passport. If they come from certain countries which are subject to visa obligation, they may be required to have an entry visa. Countries whose nationals are subject to visa are listed in Regulation (EC) No 539/2001, or under national law in the case of the United Kingdom and Ireland.

India comes under the third countries whose national requires Visa under national law in the case of the United Kingdom and Ireland.
Does it mean my parents do need a entry visa prior to reaching the port ?

I am struggling to decide on whether to -
- go via NI into Ireland
- or take a flight and request a free movement visa on port
- or apply for via embassy in advance before travel.

All Suggestion will be welcomed and hugely appreciated

[Ben]

Taking a flight from the UK to Ireland without an entry visa would be problematic in terms of logistics - staff working at check-in on behalf of the airline are likely to (unlawfully) refuse travel.

Applying for an EUTR visa at the Irish embassy in London in advance of flying / sailing to Ireland from Britain is fine, but be prepared for staff at the embassy to make your lives difficult and probably refuse the visa applications initially, later issuing them on appeal and following further documentation / letters / headache from you.

Sailing or flying to Northern Ireland from Britain and entering Ireland over land eliminates the stress of entry visa applications mentioned above and, whilst perhaps not the most direct or convenient route, is likely the most stress-free option whilst still being entirely lawful - providing you and your parents are all in possession of your passport and that they have sufficient evidence to prove that they are your parents and that they are dependant on you.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Taking a flight from the UK to Ireland without an entry visa would be problematic in terms of logistics - staff working at check-in on behalf of the airline are likely to (unlawfully) refuse travel.

You would also have to deal with border guards at Dublin airport. When we entered without a visa (husband/wife), they seemed a little foggy on their obligations. I suspect they would be more foggy in this case.

Applying for an EUTR visa at the Irish embassy in London in advance of flying / sailing to Ireland from Britain is fine, but be prepared for staff at the embassy to make your lives difficult and probably refuse the visa applications initially, later issuing them on appeal and following further documentation / letters / headache from you.

I also suspect they might refuse the application at first. Or even not accept the application. It would then take 2-4 months to appeal.

The plus side of doing this, is at the end of the process you will have a "certificate"/visa which certifies that your parents are travelling on the basis of EU law. So you have already gone through this step.

Sailing or flying to Northern Ireland from Britain and entering Ireland over land eliminates the stress of entry visa applications mentioned above and, whilst perhaps not the most direct or convenient route, is likely the most stress-free option whilst still being entirely lawful - providing you and your parents are all in possession of your passport and that they have sufficient evidence to prove that they are your parents and that they are dependant on you.

Agreed. Note that the MRAX case has a number of different aspects, several of which are relevant for this situation. The no-visa entry aspect we have talked about. The other aspect is a reconfirmation that you do not need to have an otherwise required visa to apply for a RC. So you have a very clear answer if anyone says "You are not allowed to apply for a RC since you did not have a visa to enter Ireland". See http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 59:EN:HTML


My original suggestion was to get a visa, since I assumed your parents were happily living away in their home country. That way you can go through the fight while everyone is living at home. If they are already mobile, then that would change the way that I would make my decision in a similar situation.

Note also that the RC application has to be decided within 6 months, and I suspect it will be approved smoothly. I would urge you to immediately start working in Ireland, at least part time. It helps also in settling into a new place.

Note also that a RC is NOT a prerequisite to moving back to the UK. You having worked in Ireland is however. I personally would work for at least 3 months, though there are no hard and fast rules. You may also find Ireland an amazing place to live, which it is, and want to stay a lot longer.

[star001]

hello ,
please help me out,i am British national currently working is Spain from last 1 year and my mother is with me as a non eea family member of eu national, she currently have 5 year resident card from Spain,i am planing to go back to uk ,will surrinder singh case is going to be helpful for me?

[ruthie]

India comes under the third countries whose national requires Visa under national law in the case of the United Kingdom and Ireland.
Does it mean my parents do need a entry visa prior to reaching the port ?

I am struggling to decide on whether to -
- go via NI into Ireland
- or take a flight and request a free movement visa on port
- or apply for via embassy in advance before travel.

All Suggestion will be welcomed and hugely appreciated

Isn't the recent Visa Waiver Program of ROI applied on Indian nationals as well?