Driving without Insurance/ Council tax arrears.

[Twin]

Hello, can someone help me please?

I was stopped by the police for driving without insurance earlier this year. It was discovered that my insurance company had cancelled my policy because they didn't receive the reverse of my counterpart driving licence. I wasn't aware of his as the insurance company carried on debiting my account. My licence was also less than 2 years old so I am still in my probationary period. Because of this, the officer was unable to issue me with a fine and said the matter had to be handled in court. It has been months now and I still haven't received a summon.

I am now wanting to apply for naturalisation but very unsure if this offence needs to be declared as neither has it been to court nor have I had a judgment. Please advise.

Furthermore, I lost my job some years back and fell behind in paying my council tax. I cannot recall if this went to court but I remember the baillif sending me letters. The matter has now been returned to the council and I have since honoured my repayment agreement with the council. What impact would this also have on my application, please?

Thank you for your time.

[geriatrix]

It was discovered that my insurance company had cancelled my policy because they didn't receive the reverse of my counterfeit driving licence.

Is this a typo?

[Twin]

It was discovered that my insurance company had cancelled my policy because they didn't receive the reverse of my counterfeit driving licence.

Is this a typo?

sorry, I meant to say "counterpart".

Any advise?

[geriatrix]

To begin with, get a basic CRB check and subject access - PNC done.

[Twin]

To begin with, get a basic CRB check and subject access - PNC done.

I understand that not all non criminally recordable offences appear on CRB. I was advised by the police officer that Driving without insurance was not a criminal offence but I do know that the home office treat it very seriously. I suppose I could call the DVLA or HMRC to find out if there is any record or proceeding but then again I don't wanna trigger the police to initiate proceedings.

Has it ever happened that the police forget or ignore to start proceedings on DWI?

i was wondering if I could put in application before the summons, really.

[Gyfrinachgar]

I was advised by the police officer that Driving without insurance was not a criminal offence

As far as I know, that is wrong. Driving without insurance is, even if accidential, a criminal offense. See also this topic (unlike in that particular situation, I see some room for mitigating circumstances here, though). The guidance notes to form AN state explicitly that it is not a minor offense, ergo caseworkers have little discretion on this matter. Caseworkers also cannot normally grant BC to persons with pending prosecutions (which can take quite a while to come to pass, from what I have heard).

On second thought: While I never ever heard of a case of an uninsured driving offense not being eventually prosectuted, there is a possibility that the police investigation found out that you effectively have been covered by insurance (as the company carried on debiting) and terminated the case. Based on that argument, you might be able to go forward with your application after doing the checks (see above) - but be advised that you would have to inform HO in writing if you eventually would be summoned to court (see section 6.1).

[Twin]

I was advised by the police officer that Driving without insurance was not a criminal offence

As far as I know, that is wrong. Driving without insurance is, even if accidential, a criminal offense. See also this topic (unlike in that particular situation, I see some room for mitigating circumstances here, though). The guidance notes to form AN state explicitly that it is not a minor offense, ergo caseworkers have little discretion on this matter. Caseworkers also cannot normally grant BC to persons with pending prosecutions (which can take quite a while to come to pass, from what I have heard).

On second thought: While I never ever heard of a case of an uninsured driving offense not being eventually prosectuted, there is a possibility that the police investigation found out that you effectively have been covered by insurance (as the company carried on debiting) and terminated the case. Based on that argument, you might be able to go forward with your application after doing the checks (see above) - but be advised that you would have to inform HO in writing if you eventually would be summoned to court (see section 6.1).

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to reply.

So do you think that the PNC and CRB would show if there is any pending prosecution against my name? In the last paragraph of your post, you I should inform HO in writing if I am eventually summoned. Is this after I have put in an application or before?

[Gyfrinachgar]

I should inform HO in writing if I am eventually summoned. Is this after I have put in an application or before?

When you disclose how much is a very difficult question to answer and a double-edged sword.

On the one hand, maybe there is nothing in the database, in which case you would only wake sleeping dogs. On the other hand, if HO finds out that in your initial application you didn't disclose something they find important, your application is pretty much killed. You will loose 851 pounds and also be effectively banned from applying again within 10 years.

One way you might circumvent that dilemma is to state that you have been involved in a dispute and that the validity of your insurance was put into question - WITHOUT admitting that you had no insurance - because if you go down that path, you argue that you were covered (since you paid for cover, I think that is reasonable). State that the police officer told you that this was not a criminal offense (if the police told you so, who am I to argue?). That the police told you that clarification would be requested from the insurer (which is true in any case). That you never heard from them again and consider the matter closed. In that scenario, you would need to fully disclose the court summon only when (or if) you get it, not earlier.

[Twin]

I should inform HO in writing if I am eventually summoned. Is this after I have put in an application or before?

When you disclose how much is a very difficult question to answer and a double-edged sword.

On the one hand, maybe there is nothing in the database, in which case you would only wake sleeping dogs. On the other hand, if HO finds out that in your initial application you didn't disclose something they find important, your application is pretty much killed. You will loose 851 pounds and also be effectively banned from applying again within 10 years.

One way you might circumvent that dilemma is to state that you have been involved in a dispute and that the validity of your insurance was put into question - WITHOUT admitting that you had no insurance - because if you go down that path, you argue that you were covered (since you paid for cover, I think that is reasonable). State that the police officer told you that this was not a criminal offense (if the police told you so, who am I to argue?). That the police told you that clarification would be requested from the insurer (which is true in any case). That you never heard from them again and consider the matter closed. In that scenario, you would need to fully disclose the court summon only when (or if) you get it, not earlier.

Again, thank you for the invaluable advise.

With regard to what the police said, I do not know if our conversation was being taped but I remembered being in tears as this was my first involvement with the law(traffic police) and was shocked to be told that I had no insurance. I was really worried about a criminal record (being a law student and with my future naturalisation application) but the police officer reassured me that it wasn't a criminal offence (or maybe he said not criminal record) but a traffic offence and that even judges(some) have this. He even said he had not come across a case where the insurance company cancelled a policy on the back of not having received a copy of the driving licence.

Stll, at this point, I am non the wiser on the way to proceed with this. It's been three months now and I haven't heard a thing. I don't know how much longer I should wait. I am also worried that if I request for a PNC, it might trigger the police to initiate proceedings if they haven't already done so.

[Gyfrinachgar]

Again, thank you for the invaluable advise.

"Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." Very true words by Tolkien - and they fit particularly well here I am afraid.

[Twin]

Again, thank you for the invaluable advise.

"Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill." Very true words by Tolkien - and they fit particularly well here I am afraid.

ok...suggestion? I don't know what to say.

[Gyfrinachgar]

I don't think that a request to see one's records can trigger proceedings, but I am not an expert on that. Personally, I would want to know what is going on even if there were a risk - rather than permanently living under a Damocles sword. However, that is a decision that everyone needs to make for himself.

[Twin]

I don't think that a request to see one's records can trigger proceedings, but I am not an expert on that. Personally, I would want to know what is going on even if there were a risk - rather than permanently living under a Damocles sword. However, that is a decision that everyone needs to make for himself.

Ok, so if I have no record on my PCN or CrB, do I still have to declare to UKBA?

[Gyfrinachgar]

I would tend to say yes.

On the one hand, a person is innocent until proven guilty. On the other hand, HO will never give you BC if there are proceedings against you pending (and to add insult to injury, it might even backfire badly if not disclosed). I am not sure if this is a question you can get definite and reliable advise in a forum like this to begin with, since your case is not clear cut. You may need to talk to a professional - i.e. a lawer.

[Twin]

I would tend to say yes.

On the one hand, a person is innocent until proven guilty. On the other hand, HO will never give you BC if there are proceedings against you pending (and to add insult to injury, it might even backfire badly). I am not sure if this is a question you can get definite and reliable advise in a forum like this to begin with, since your case is not clear cut. You may need to talk to a professional - i.e. a lawer.

I would do just that. Thank you for your help so far. I shall keep you updated.

[Twin]

Hello,

just to let you know that I have found out (albeit after calling the courts myself) that a proceeding has been initiated against me and has been scheduled for the new year (what a nice xmas present!) . As this is a strict liability offence, it is almost certain that I would be found guilty and have an in10 endorsement with fines and not forgeting - revocation of my licence as i'm only a new driver under probation. I am devastated at the idea that I would have to wait till 2016 to now apply.

I really wish there was a way out. If you have any advice for me, please do not hesitate to proffer as I can do with some pick me up right now.

[aledeniz]

I really wish there was a way out. If you have any advice for me, please do not hesitate to proffer as I can do with some pick me up right now.

Sorry to hear that.

Being a law student, you certainly know the British legal system better than me, a mere layman, but in your place, also in light of the mitigating factors, I would have wondered the suitability and the related avenues of appeal of a defence contending a disproportionate punishment, and I am not referring only to the delay in the naturalisation, but on the effects on an eventual future career in the judiciary.