Schengen visa for family member of EU citizen (German)

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:53 am

It is really interesting to compare what border guards tell you and what the embassy tells you. They are often working off a very different assumptions or understandings of the law.

tina79 · Post by **tina79** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:26 pm

only one more question...when my husband applies for a new schengen visa he will have to show them the flight ticket right? is not like he is renwing his visa...

thanks.

still waiting for the asnwer from the embassy.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:37 pm

tina79 wrote:only one more question...when my husband applies for a new schengen visa he will have to show them the flight ticket right? is not like he is renwing his visa....

No, family members of EU citizens are not required to show flight tickets. His right to free movement comes directly from his relationship to you. No on whether he is driving or taking a boat or flying or hitch-hiking with you.

tina79 · Post by **tina79** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:12 pm

thanks. is this anywehere written as knowing my emabassy or the Austrian they will require flight ticket from him.

evil_grrrl666 · Post by **evil_grrrl666** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:03 am

Alright, skipping a whole load of responses here which are nothing to do with me, sorry if I've missed anything relevant to my original forum post. please do let me know.

Update:
Solvit responded saying I'm 100% correct. I forwarded their response to the German embassy. Just as my last email before that (which specificially quotes the directive) they have chosen to ignore it. Solvit also advised that I complain to the German version of the ministry of home affairs which I have now done.

I am fully committed to continue fighting about this, even though it is a bit petty, and meanwhile my husband is getting annoyed that he still doesn't have a visa and "why don't we just pay the 16 quid to get it done".
Well I'm just annoyed now and am sick of being the idiot who gets taken for a ride. All this comes after it took us months renewing his passport because the Indian High Commission are seemingly out to get their own citizens. If there's nothing that can be done about that, causing me endless stress before trying to visit Germany at the end of August, I am certainly going to make life difficult for the German Embassy. We've got laws for a reason, not for them to pick and choose which are convenient to follow.

Schengener · Post by **Schengener** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:44 pm

16 quid?? Just pay it and be done with it.... just for the sake of all that time and nerves you got to put into it, and to continue doing that.

However, I got a very positive and clear response from VFS, after looking at his passport and British residence permit, that no Schengen visa is required even for my unmarried partner.

Email from VFS:
"Please note that he will not require a visa to travel to Germany if he will travel together with his EU/EEA National."

In your case, it is even more straightforward because you have a marriage certificate. So, if you dont want to just drop the whole Schengen visa thing, even though you could, why not just pay the few bucks.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:46 pm

Schengener wrote:16 quid?? Just pay it and be done with it.... just for the sake of all that time and nerves you got to put into it, and to continue doing that.

Do you advise that for all illegal requests?

I am personally very happy that some people push back. Otherwise there would not be any progress.

Schengener · Post by **Schengener** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:06 pm

What you describe as 'illegality', seems to me rather a case of confused and unknowing bureaucracy. Sure, if you want to sort that out, and take all the time and effort to do that, fine. Even if at the mere bonus of saving 16pounds, at the expence of a lot of trouble, nerves, and activity spent on this endeavour. And no guaranteee, that this will be the all-clear for all future applications.
But in evilgrrl's case, it also seemed to me it's holding back her husband getting a Schengen visa, hence I felt inclined to make a statement.

evil_grrrl666 · Post by **evil_grrrl666** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:27 am

I appreciate it would be easier to just pay up but as I mentioned, I am sick of embassies just doing whatever they want without any regard for how they are supposed to treat people.

From years of living in Asia and watching people running into issues with VFS which didn't exist before the embassies decided to outsource, I feel quite strongly about the situation. And plus I just went through a whole lot of nonsense just getting my husband a passport because of bureaucracy we couldn't fight. Call me petty but I am just angry. And it so happens that in this case the law is on my side, not theirs. And yes, you're right he doesn't NEED a visa so as far as I'm concerned it doesn't stop us from travelling if we really wanted to, he's not planning any trips by himself so it shouldn't matter how far this gets dragged out. In fact the longer they drag it out, the more it shows that they don't respect the EU directives.

Considering I'm already worked up about it all do you honestly think I'll feel better if I cave and pay up? I won't, I'll feel like a big hypocrite who once again got screwed over by those in power. I'm simply not having it.

BTW confused and unknowing? If the rest of us were this incompetent in their jobs do you think we'd still be employed? They are meant to know. They used to follow these rules until July or August this year and it was a brilliant service. They decided to ruin it.

PS. I'm not trying to be rude to anyone commenting here, I'm just annoyed at the embassy.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:39 pm

evil_grrrl666 wrote:I appreciate it would be easier to just pay up but as I mentioned, I am sick of embassies just doing whatever they want without any regard for how they are supposed to treat people.

From years of living in Asia and watching people running into issues with VFS which didn't exist before the embassies decided to outsource, I feel quite strongly about the situation. And plus I just went through a whole lot of nonsense just getting my husband a passport because of bureaucracy we couldn't fight. Call me petty but I am just angry. And it so happens that in this case the law is on my side, not theirs. And yes, you're right he doesn't NEED a visa so as far as I'm concerned it doesn't stop us from travelling if we really wanted to, he's not planning any trips by himself so it shouldn't matter how far this gets dragged out. In fact the longer they drag it out, the more it shows that they don't respect the EU directives.

Considering I'm already worked up about it all do you honestly think I'll feel better if I cave and pay up? I won't, I'll feel like a big hypocrite who once again got screwed over by those in power. I'm simply not having it.

BTW confused and unknowing? If the rest of us were this incompetent in their jobs do you think we'd still be employed? They are meant to know. They used to follow these rules until July or August this year and it was a brilliant service. They decided to ruin it.

PS. I'm not trying to be rude to anyone commenting here, I'm just annoyed at the embassy.

This is pretty much exactly my motivation in for initially getting involved in all this.

It was a real cultural eye opener to talk with the woman who I believe ran the visa section then. I explained that we did not know where we were going in Germany and did not have reservations. I asked, "So do you make reservations way in advance?" And she said of course, she had already booked her full holiday for the coming year.

If I can help in any way Frau Evil, I am very happy to do so!

tina79 · Post by **tina79** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:48 pm

evil_grrrl666 wrote:I appreciate it would be easier to just pay up but as I mentioned, I am sick of embassies just doing whatever they want without any regard for how they are supposed to treat people.

From years of living in Asia and watching people running into issues with VFS which didn't exist before the embassies decided to outsource, I feel quite strongly about the situation. And plus I just went through a whole lot of nonsense just getting my husband a passport because of bureaucracy we couldn't fight. Call me petty but I am just angry. And it so happens that in this case the law is on my side, not theirs. And yes, you're right he doesn't NEED a visa so as far as I'm concerned it doesn't stop us from travelling if we really wanted to, he's not planning any trips by himself so it shouldn't matter how far this gets dragged out. In fact the longer they drag it out, the more it shows that they don't respect the EU directives.

Considering I'm already worked up about it all do you honestly think I'll feel better if I cave and pay up? I won't, I'll feel like a big hypocrite who once again got screwed over by those in power. I'm simply not having it.

BTW confused and unknowing? If the rest of us were this incompetent in their jobs do you think we'd still be employed? They are meant to know. They used to follow these rules until July or August this year and it was a brilliant service. They decided to ruin it.

PS. I'm not trying to be rude to anyone commenting here, I'm just annoyed at the embassy.

I agree with you! Stand for you rights! Even it will cost you little as 16 quid but still....they have to learn a lesson. If you let them go away with it, they will do it to the next person. Unfortunately I noticed that in the embassies people rather ruin people's life then help. Believe me I am fed up education my embassy but unfortunately i have no choice if I want them to do it right! Not sure why these people are not trained enough when they get the job in embassy! Yeah good money, good life, nice country, ect.....but do nothing for it seems the easy way for them!

I have similiar situation like you and I still waiting for them to come back to me with an asnwer. I had to move to Turkey to be with my husband bc the UK embassy refused to give him the EEA family permit based on not believing on our marrige!!!!! Now i wish I could just walk in to show them how happy we are and how geniue is our marrige!!!! in fact the first baby is on its way!

Go for it! Good luck and hope you will sort it out soon!

evil_grrrl666 · Post by **evil_grrrl666** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:24 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:... Frau Evil ...

Lol this just made my day for no apparent reason.

mcovet · Post by **mcovet** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:28 pm

how about you pay the £16 but under protest and then keep claiming the illegality the way you are now? Sometimes in life you have to be more tactically aware.

The embassy don't care whether or not you make a point, now, later or never. So, pay the £16 service charge and then claim it back. If the German Ministry of foreign affairs agrees with you, not only will they update the system, but also return the moneys. If they do not agree, I'm afraid you can't do much more apart from trying to contact someone in the EU Commission and/or Parliament and those things take forever.

Eventually, it's easier to travel with a Schengen visa for your husband than without, as you may encounter more incompetence at the border.

In cases like this you have to be more tactical and choose your compromise etc. Shooting yourself in the foot here.

you wouldn't be a hypocrite if you pay up, you would and SHOULD still press with your idea but later, after you've had a nice planned holiday. You'd be a hypocrite if you stopped pursuing it altogether after making a song and dance about it.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:22 pm

mcovet, I think once you have paid you loose your leverage (unless you are willing to sue). They issue the visa and can say "Frau Evil's freedom of movmement is not being interfered with, so lets move on".

Especially if the visa is really optional, as in this case.

mcovet · Post by **mcovet** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:36 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:mcovet, I think once you have paid you loose your leverage (unless you are willing to sue). They issue the visa and can say "Frau Evil's freedom of movmement is not being interfered with, so lets move on".

Especially if the visa is really optional, as in this case.

WRONG, the payment is, if anything, proof of the illegal demand and thus can act in confirming that the consulate is demanding fees for a service which must be free.

IMHO I side with the consulate here. There is a free option if you go in person, but if you want to use postal application, because it is outsourced, they use 3rd party which charges money. Imagine if they simply did not have the postal option, all applicants must attend (just like the French embassy, where they'll even make you submit your Biometric data!) what would you argue then?

Pay and claim later, prudent thing to do, don't ruin your holiday.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:44 pm

evil_grrrl666 wrote:I appreciate it would be easier to just pay up but as I mentioned, I am sick of embassies just doing whatever they want without any regard for how they are supposed to treat people.

From years of living in Asia and watching people running into issues with VFS which didn't exist before the embassies decided to outsource, I feel quite strongly about the situation. And plus I just went through a whole lot of nonsense just getting my husband a passport because of bureaucracy we couldn't fight. Call me petty but I am just angry. And it so happens that in this case the law is on my side, not theirs. And yes, you're right he doesn't NEED a visa so as far as I'm concerned it doesn't stop us from travelling if we really wanted to, he's not planning any trips by himself so it shouldn't matter how far this gets dragged out. In fact the longer they drag it out, the more it shows that they don't respect the EU directives.

Considering I'm already worked up about it all do you honestly think I'll feel better if I cave and pay up? I won't, I'll feel like a big hypocrite who once again got screwed over by those in power. I'm simply not having it.

BTW confused and unknowing? If the rest of us were this incompetent in their jobs do you think we'd still be employed? They are meant to know. They used to follow these rules until July or August this year and it was a brilliant service. They decided to ruin it.

PS. I'm not trying to be rude to anyone commenting here, I'm just annoyed at the embassy.

Just to give some moral encouragement. I agree with you that it is worth fighting and making a fuss. Good on you.

evil_grrrl666 · Post by **evil_grrrl666** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:26 am

Latest update, finally someone else from the German Embassy got back to me and said that they would make a special appointment for us. So rather than make things easier for everyone involved by accepting the postal application, they now realise that not having a free option at all (by not having any appointments available in their online system for the next 2 months) was one step too far.

I'm still arguing though, because I have nothing better to do.

I don't know about what the French embassy does but I'm seriously surprised nobody has caused a big scene about that. Don't get me started on biometric data, I was very angry I had to be fingerprinted like a common criminal for my last passport renewal. But I didn't see any opportunity to fight it.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:35 pm

Finger printing for a German Ausweis is I believe optional. Is it required now for the passport?

evil_grrrl666 · Post by **evil_grrrl666** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:17 pm

There was nothing I could find that said fingerprinting was optional. In fact the only information I could find was that everyone needed to be fingerprinted due to another EU regulation (which i suppose they were happy enough to implement)

Anyway, latest update, I contacted solvit again (the first time around for advice, this time to actually help resolve the matter). And they told me that offering a free of charge alternative is enough, even if it involves going in person.
Everyone seems to have a very loose interpretation of the directive indeed! Am I just crazy? I'm not asking for the world here, just that we receive the same service we have been getting for the past 4 years.

Still waiting for a response from the German ministry for foreign affairs, but I'm really not hopeful. I guess I'm running out of options.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:55 pm

On the optional fingerprint for German citizen's new Personalausweises

Wozu dienen die Fingerabdrücke?

Im Chip des neuen Personalausweises sind die auf dem Ausweis aufgedruckten Daten und das Lichtbild digital abgelegt. Zusätzlich ist es möglich, Fingerabdrücke als freiwilliges Merkmal aufzunehmen. Jeder kann frei entscheiden, ob er dies möchte. Wenn Sie Ihre Fingerabdrücke nicht aufnehmen lassen wollen, entstehen Ihnen keine Nachteile.

Die Kombination von Lichtbild und Fingerabdrücken ermöglicht eine eindeutige Zuordnung von Ausweisinhaber und Ausweis. Beispielsweise ist es nicht möglich, dass ein Fremder mit Ihrem Ausweis eine Grenzkontrolle am Flughafen passiert – auch wenn er Ihnen ähnlich sieht. Lichtbild und Fingerabdrücke können zukünftig vor Ort mit den Merkmalen der Person verglichen werden und müssen übereinstimmen.

Interesting that it is required for the passport.

evil_grrrl666 · Post by **evil_grrrl666** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:32 pm

could this be a relatively new development? I applied for my passport in 2010, and at that time I read that from 2007 it was made obligatory for all EU countries' passports to include biometric data.

I just found this on the same topic http://www.deutsche-mittelstands-nachri ... /06/43299/

Could it be that they changed their position based on a stubborn man who decided to take the matter to court?

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:13 am

It certainly requires somebody to push back for anything to change! (Thank you!)

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/ ... 30883.html is also about finger printing and passports.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:03 pm

evil_grrrl666 wrote:I read that from 2007 it was made obligatory for all EU countries' passports to include biometric data.

They do require biometrics (and I don't profess to fully understand), but there are other means of collecting biometric data other than old fashioned foot-prints.

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Schengen visa for family member of EU citizen (German)