No exit controls in UK. How does UKBA count absences?

[sholay78]

Dear Friends

I need your help desperately. I am a naturalised british citizen and my wife has already completed 3 years on ILR.

We have lost track of her absences from the UK as she has been travelling so much.

My question is: how exactly does UKBA confirm about the absences from the UK?

I have had multiple answers from immigration lawyers on this topic.

Some say UKBA only counts the stamps on the passports to confirm. Some say UKBA gets the exit records from all the airlines, so whenever anyone makes an application UKBA checks from the database it maintains through the airline information.


If you have knowledge, experience on this topic, can you please share your thoughts?

Thanks a million in advance!

[Jambo]

What exactly is the issue? You have difficulties of recalling her absences or that you know she has gone over the threshold and wonder if the HO would catch this?

If the former, try to construct her dates from travel tickets (these days it is all online/email), frequent flyer records, credit card statements for tickets purchased, holiday request from work (if she works) etc. do your best to be accurate.

If the latter, I suggest you don't. Never lie on an application. The 270 days threshold is not mandatory and discretion can be applied if her absences are over it.

[solospy]

UKBA dont have to check from the airlines. Though there are no exit stamps from any UK airport, u still get entry stamps when u land at any country.

UKBA can see those entry stamps and calculate the absences.

[sholay78]

UKBA dont have to check from the airlines. Though there are no exit stamps from any UK airport, u still get entry stamps when u land at any country.

UKBA can see those entry stamps and calculate the absences.

But in case of EEA passports there are no exit/entry stamps when they move within Europe. That is the case here. She never got any stamp when she entered mainland Europe. But she gets recorded when she re-enters the UK.

[andrej]

Though there are no exit stamps from any UK airport, u still get entry stamps when u land at any country.

UKBA can see those entry stamps and calculate the absences.

Not really, EEA citizens and their Non-EEA family members do not get any entry stamps, or aren't supposed to get stamped. Saying that, I was stamped always but once as a Non-EEA family member. Not complaining now as I used the stamps to remember my trips out of UK and prove residence for naturalisation.

[andrej]

If the former, try to construct her dates from travel tickets (these days it is all online/email), frequent flyer records, credit card statements for tickets purchased, holiday request from work (if she works) etc. do your best to be accurate.

I think it is an interesting question... "How do they get their information?". Do they have to rely on entry stamps or just what the person declares if there are no entry stamps? As I recall, EEA citizens do get their passports scanned upon entry into UK, sometimes, but it depends on the airport. Also what if one travels on an ID card?

When in Spain, more than a year ago I witnessed the IOs literally waving EEA citizens through. One only needed to hold up the passport or I.D. card and pass!! I had to stop and show the guy my non-EU passport, for which he had to pretend an effort.

I just am interested to know how the HO knows or pretends to know. Anyone?

[Gyfrinachgar]

I just am interested to know how the HO knows or pretends to know. Anyone?

Each and every time I cross a British border (ferry or airplane, not sure about train, though), my passport / id-card is put on a scanner (something like this or this). The machine-readable-zone is read and the border officer compares what appears on the monitor with my passport and with my face. That usually takes 10 seconds and I am off on my way. Data easy to gather, easy to store, easy to access.

[aledeniz]

When in Spain, more than a year ago I witnessed the IOs literally waving EEA citizens through. One only needed to hold up the passport or I.D. card and pass!! I had to stop and show the guy my non-EU passport, for which he had to pretend an effort.

I have seen the same approach a few times in summer, in Sardinia and in Calabria (but never in Sicily), for aircrafts coming from the UK. A policeman asking people to hold up their IDs, and wave them trough in masse.

[Jambo]

But in case of EEA passports there are no exit/entry stamps when they move within Europe. That is the case here. She never got any stamp when she entered mainland Europe. But she gets recorded when she re-enters the UK.

If she holds a EEA passport, does she have ILR (following a spouse visa) or PR status (following 5 years exercising treaty rights in the UK. She must have one of the two before applying (even as a spouse).

[Gyfrinachgar]

If she holds a EEA passport, does she have ILR (following a spouse visa) or PR status (following 5 years exercising treaty rights in the UK. She must have one of the two before applying (even as a spouse).

Seems so: "my wife has already completed 3 years on ILR."

@sholay78: Maybe this, this, this, this and this thread might interest you as well.

[andrej]

Each and every time I cross a British border (ferry or airplane, not sure about train, though), my passport / id-card is put on a scanner (something like this or this). The machine-readable-zone is read and the border officer compares what appears on the monitor with my passport and with my face. That usually takes 10 seconds and I am off on my way. Data easy to gather, easy to store, easy to access.

Nice little toys, I wish I had one. Thanks. I am guessing you are an EEA citizen (I.D. card to travel). Were you ever NOT scanned but they just had a look at your I.D. vs. face and then let you through? I could swear that my wife's passport was not always scanned as mine was - depending on the airport and government policy at the time. Another time I was asked to stick my finger on to a scanner but that policy did not last long.

[andrej]

When in Spain, more than a year ago I witnessed the IOs literally waving EEA citizens through. One only needed to hold up the passport or I.D. card and pass!! I had to stop and show the guy my non-EU passport, for which he had to pretend an effort.

I have seen the same approach a few times in summer, in Sardinia and in Calabria (but never in Sicily), for aircrafts coming from the UK. A policeman asking people to hold up their IDs, and wave them trough in masse.

Yea, it seems that criminals and bad people with forged passports only come from outside the EU. No such nonsense in the Glorious Union!

[Gyfrinachgar]

I am guessing you are an EEA citizen (I.D. card to travel). Were you ever NOT scanned but they just had a look at your I.D. vs. face and then let you through?

Yes, you are guessing correctly. British and continental-EEA.
No, I cannot recall a single time the passport/card wasn't scanned, and I travel a lot. They sometimes do it very fast, though - put it on the scanner and hold it back up to see the photo nearly in one movement. I was never asked to give fingerprints, but I don't have them on file anyway.

[sholay78]

I just am interested to know how the HO knows or pretends to know. Anyone?

Each and every time I cross a British border (ferry or airplane, not sure about train, though), my passport / id-card is put on a scanner (something like this or this). The machine-readable-zone is read and the border officer compares what appears on the monitor with my passport and with my face. That usually takes 10 seconds and I am off on my way. Data easy to gather, easy to store, easy to access.

I do not believe passports are put into the machine readable zones always. Moreover, my view on machines reading these passports is that it is used to check if passport is original or not forged and nothing else.

The only way I still can believe UKBA checking this is through accessing advance passenger information through airlines, ferries etc. but obviously I am not sure if that is the case or not.

[Jambo]

Going back to your original post and my question - what is the actual issue here?

[simonflynn04]

Passports definitely aren't scanned or even checked at all when travelling on flights between the UK and Ireland. I think there's an section at the end of the application saying we agree to let them check our social security info or something like that? So presuming the absence of asking for permission to check anything else would mean they rely on trust for EU passport holders?

[madhumesh]

HO rely on statement made by applicant and comparing it with UK entry stamps and entry and exit stamps of countries where applicant travelled(If available). Otherwise If they have reasonable doubt they can request or make further enquiries like travel details and ticket numbers etc.

[cs95tdg]

Although this thread appears to be deviating slightly from the original topic, it's an interesting discussion. I noticed a difference in IC procedure when re-entering the UK last week, in that they took my finger prints, after scanning my passport (which they have done every time I re-entered the UK in the recent past). But I hold a non-EU passport & this was the first time I re-entered with a BRP card and I understood the new step of scanning my fingers to be, purely a verification of my identity against the data on my BRP.

OP, are you trying to understand the procedure followed by the HO on absences for your wife's naturalisation application as she already has ILR?

My understanding is that this is done by the information held by the UKBA, which you can request by making a SAR & entry stamps in her passport(s).

[sholay78]

Going back to your original post and my question - what is the actual issue here?

Actual issue is we seem to struggle to calculate the exact number of absences and it is lying around the border line. So, not sure when to apply and if to apply at all or not.

[ramay]

Going back to your original post and my question - what is the actual issue here?

Actual issue is we seem to struggle to calculate the exact number of absences and it is lying around the border line. So, not sure when to apply and if to apply at all or not.

they have information about departures dates in the e-border database but mostly for nonEU routes high risk destinations..Just make a SAR request and ask to send only information about your departures and arrivals dates as you do not remember anything.
In my SAR everything was there all dates in and out.

another fact that common case workers previously didn't have a direct access to that data, but recently I've seen people on the forum whose case worker at PEO was able to get those dates from some another computer in 1-2 hours. maybe now they linked together CW database and e-border?

[sholay78]

Going back to your original post and my question - what is the actual issue here?

Actual issue is we seem to struggle to calculate the exact number of absences and it is lying around the border line. So, not sure when to apply and if to apply at all or not.

they have information about departures dates in the e-border database but mostly for nonEU routes high risk destinations..Just make a SAR request and ask to send only information about your departures and arrivals dates as you do not remember anything.
In my SAR everything was there all dates in and out.

Please excuse my ignorance, how do I make a SAR request? Thanks a lot.

[cs95tdg]

Please excuse my ignorance, how do I make a SAR request?

See... http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/navig ... onal-data/

[krispycreme]

Just a little addition to the discussion about exit re-entry checks. I believe UKBA is making exit re-entry checks on all recent applications for resident permits, EEA3 and EEA4. The reason why I know this is because one of the guys at my Uni was asking me about EEA2 applications (as I am in the process of making one myself) Just a few days ago I heard that he has been detained as his EEA wife was not in the country and He was implying that she was in his application!!

Anyway I firmly believe you should not lie about anything in your application, if your not sure write a cover letter rather than cooking stuff up because that just creates misrepresentation on your part and subject to further scrutiny.

All the best