Travel to Schengen Area as EU citizen with no EU passport

[nickc]

Hi, I'm a dual South African and British citizen, but I won't have a British passport in time for a trip I'm planning next month to Germany.

All the info out there indicates you only have to be an EU citizen, not necessarily an EU passport-holder, in order to enter without a visa.

I am therefore wondering if I can enter Germany using my South African passport and proof of British citizenship, i.e. my citizenship certificate.

Anybody got any concrete knowledge of this situation? Thanks very much

[Jambo]

No. You need a proper travel document. Either a passport or ID card (not relevant to the UK). The naturalisation certificate has no meaning to a non UK border officer.

If you can't get a British passport in time (currently IPS are not busy and you can get one in 2 weeks), you will need a visa to use your SA passport.

[Gyfrinachgar]

currently IPS are not busy and you can get one in 2 weeks

Except it would be the first adult passport, than it would at least 6 weeks, regardless how busy the IPS is.
By the way, when you say that they are not busy at the moment - is that a seasonal thing?

[Jambo]

I was referring to first passport. Renewing a passport can be done in the same day (for extra cost).

Although IPS state it can take upto 6 weeks, the latest posts in the passport timeline indicate around 2 weeks. There is a seasonal affect. The summer months are the busiest (when people realise their passport expired before going on holiday).

[Gyfrinachgar]

Although IPS state it can take upto 6 weeks

Actually, they state "at least" 6 weeks. 2 weeks is very impressive in any case, thanks for the clarification.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Hi, I'm a dual South African and British citizen, but I won't have a British passport in time for a trip I'm planning next month to Germany.

All the info out there indicates you only have to be an EU citizen, not necessarily an EU passport-holder, in order to enter without a visa.

I am therefore wondering if I can enter Germany using my South African passport and proof of British citizenship, i.e. my citizenship certificate.

Anybody got any concrete knowledge of this situation? Thanks very much :)

So, the answer is complicated.

The short answer is flying will likely be difficult, but entry by train/ferry to Schengen should be possible.

http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/ is written in terms of no-visa, but the same ECJ case, MRAX, was also about Eu citizens travelling without their passport. Read through it carefully.

Have you ever had a British passport, or are you just newly naturalized?

I suspect you will be able to travel OK, by ferry or train, but expect it will take several hours to cross the border. Actually, that being said, there are often not even people manning the French border booth when you take the ferry or train with a car, so nobody might even ask.

In any case, once you are there you are legally there as a British citizen even if you do not have your passport.

Directive 2004/38/EC
Article 5 -- Right of entry

4. Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.

I disagree with Jambo, though I do think it will be easier and faster if you have a valid passport.

[Jambo]

OK. Let me rephrase - You have the right to travel without a UK passport. In practice, it will be very difficult to do so.

As I said, it you travel next month, you should be able to get a passport before.

[nickc]

Wow, thanks for all the debate and info - it's definitely not a clear-cut situation!

To elaborate further, I'm actually waiting at the moment to receive a confirmation of non-acquisition of UK citizenship, which I need BEFORE I attend my citizenship ceremony in order to retain my SA citizenship. Real headache. Once I have this, I'll arrange for my citizenship ceremony and then fire off my UK passport application ASAP.

My request for the non-acqui confirmation was received at UKBA Liverpool on 30 October. Although my creditcard has still not been charged the £88 processing fee, I'm hoping they'll get to processing and responding very soon.

Jambo: if, e.g., I sent off my passport application on or before Monday 26th Nov (which I'd hope is realistic), would you estimate that I'd have a passport by the start of the week of the 17th Dec?

Thanks everyone for your help.

[Jambo]

3 weeks should be doable if you are OK to travel a bit in order the attend the earliest interview slot. Also you need a bit of luck that IPS don't decide to verify with your countersignatory (only happens to a small fraction of applications).

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Wow, thanks for all the debate and info - it's definitely not a clear-cut situation! :)

To elaborate further, I'm actually waiting at the moment to receive a confirmation of non-acquisition of UK citizenship, which I need BEFORE I attend my citizenship ceremony in order to retain my SA citizenship. Real headache. Once I have this, I'll arrange for my citizenship ceremony and then fire off my UK passport application ASAP.

The debate is good!

If I remember correctly, each council schedules the citizenship ceremony, and their local backlog and availability of slots may vary significantly.

From what you write, it is worth considering the possibility that your citizenship is not finalized in 2012. Maybe worth applying for a visa? But hopefully I am very wrong.

I always find these things take far longer than I ever imagine when I start off the process.

[nickc]

Hi folks,

Things have moved along slightly, so I have a quick update.

I have now received that confirmation letter I needed, so my citizenship ceremony is this Friday and I'll aim to dispatch my passport application the same day.

Jambo, I think I've read that existing foreign passports are not retained for the duration of the application processing - is that correct? I'm nervous to take a risk sending off my passport when I'll probably need it by the 2nd week of December in order to obtain a Schengen visa and then probably later in December to travel. If it's possible to get my passport back after a week or two, I'll apply for the UK one on Friday, but otherwise I think I'm going to have to leave it for January.

Also, for my application, I need to send the passport which I used to "come into the UK". Is that first entry, or most recent entry? I have my old South Africa one which has my UK visas and indefinite leave to remain, and my new one which I used to enter the UK most recently.

Thanks again for your time.

[Jambo]

You need to send the passport you initially entered the UK with (if you still got it) and your current valid passport.

Check the passport timeline. In many cases, the documents are returned after 9-12 days (I suggest you pay the extra £3 for secure delivery). Getting an interview + delivery of the British passport normally take another week or so.

Make sure the countersignatory date is Friday as its should be same/later than your ceremony date.

[nickc]

Great, thanks for all your advice, really appreciate having such a good resource for assistance.

Passport application was dispatched at 12:50 today via the Post Office check-and-send service.

Almost at the end of a long journey