Visa free travel for Residence Card holder Case refer to ECJ

[rosebead]

Well we made it to the UK with just the French residence cards.

Had not realized they had moved border control to the French side, like the Tunnel. We caused much confusion, as they had to go and look up the changes and what to do, ended up missing the booked ferry. Asked for some strange paperwork, but I'd brought a good set of samples.

But we got in - the stamped the passports with 6 months UK visa - did not think they were supposed to do this.

Well done for getting through and thanks for letting us know. It sounds like they've stamped your wife and stepson's passports with a Code 1A stamp, which is a very curious thing to do if they both have French residence cards. It all sounds like the immigration officers haven't been briefed very well, especially as they did not appear to be aware of the rule change. Did they ask to see proof of French residence, employment and centre of life and such-like? Are those the curious papers you mean? Those are all Surinder Singh evidence, and it's disappointing if they asked you for all of that, as the EEA residence cards should have been enough for entry if the UK were properly complying with McCarthy. I hope all that was just down to officers being ill-informed rather than it being a matter of border policy.

[Woodquest]

Hi All,

I'm happy to let you all know that I flew on Ryanair this afternoon without my EU citizen wife from Dublin T1 to London Stanstead having just my EU Stamp4 Residence card and my passport. Although the staff at Ryanair Customer Service desk in Dublin were initially confused and had to make several telephone calls before they eventually allowed me to pass through. I was asked whether I was joining my spouse in London or not and I answered Yes. No other proof or document was requested.

At London Stanstead, there was no immigration control stand. So a successful journey altogether. I'm due back in Ireland on Monday morning.

[alazani28]

Hi All,

I'm happy to let you all know that I flew on Ryanair this afternoon without my EU citizen wife from Dublin T1 to London Stanstead having just my EU Stamp4 Residence card and my passport. Although the staff at Ryanair Customer Service desk in Dublin were initially confused and had to make several telephone calls before they eventually allowed me to pass through. I was asked whether I was joining my spouse in London or not and I answered Yes. No other proof or document was requested.

At London Stanstead, there was no immigration control stand. So a successful journey altogether. I'm due back in Ireland on Monday morning.

That is Amazing News, Well done
May I ask the nationality of your spouse?
Also what is your nationality and what residency card did you have.
Many Thanks
and well done again.

[Woodquest]

My wife is Netherlands and I'm a Nigerian, a holder of the EU stamp4 Permanent Residence both living in Ireland.


Thanks.

[alazani28]

My wife is Netherlands and I'm a Nigerian, a holder of the EU stamp4 Permanent Residence both living in Ireland.


Thanks.

Thanks for the reply.
That is good information to know.

[Obie]

My wife is Netherlands and I'm a Nigerian, a holder of the EU stamp4 Permanent Residence both living in Ireland.


Thanks.

Where you actually joining your wife?

[Woodquest]

@Obie, Yes I was joining my wife. She had traveled to England on Sunday 5/4/2015 to visit family and I couldn't go with her since I had no EEA family permit and we weren't sure I would be allowed into the UK.

However, I posted a question about my concerns when my wife was leaving for the UK on that same day here.
http://www.immigrationboards.com/irelan ... 83972.html

Good Members on this forum then referred me to ongoing discussions about the topic. That was where I learned that the UK planned to implement the latest ECJ ruling on 6/04/2015. So, I decided to take my chance and see whether they will respect it. We are both returning to Ireland on Monday.

It is important to note that the Airline did not verify that I was joining my wife and I see no way they could have investigated or verified that anyway. Also, journeys between the Republic of Ireland and the UK are considered domestic flights. So, no immigration checks between the two Countries thus making the immigration responsibilities to fall on Airlines,which have no way of checking whether you are actually joining your spouse or not. Or what do you think?

[Obie]

If you were indeed joining her, which i have no reason to disbelieve, then you have every right to enter, as you are covered by the transitional provision.

[tebee]

Well have finally made it to the second hotel after spending one long day sightseeing in London and an even longer day today suck on the M6., left the hotel id south London at 8 am this morning and arrived at 8 pm tonight, all driving ( or stationary) except for a 2 hour break for lunch by the side of the river Cam watching the ducks and punters.

The visa says some the the effect of EEA visa by way of regulations 2006 - will give the exact title when I have in in front of me again.

Strange things they asked - I give them my business registration and tax bill which proves I was running a business in France, but they said that did not prove I was living there ! I gave them my land tax bill which only proves that I own property there and they accepted that.

They queried why my wife had so many China visa stamps - she is Chinese ! She is also a TCM doctor and frequently goes to conferences and exhibitions there.

They wanted to see my car registration document - why ?

They wanted details of where I was staying in the UK - they settled for a Booking.com printout of the hotel reservation

[rosebead]

^ That is very strange, like you said. It's almost like they didn't trust that you were who you said you were and was someone who was trying it on or something. It's pretty depressing in fact that they didn't just let you through without hassling you once you showed the RC and your passports, in the same way Schengen guards would have because they've actually been instructed by their governments to respect EU law unlike it appears British guards.

[alazani28]

^ That is very strange, like you said. It's almost like they didn't trust that you were who you said you were and was someone who was trying it on or something. It's pretty depressing in fact that they didn't just let you through without hassling you once you showed the RC and your passports, in the same way Schengen guards would have because they've actually been instructed by their governments to respect EU law unlike it appears British guards.

Yeah that it kinda sad to hear, but if you can prove to them your place of residency in Europe before going back to UK for holiday it is fair to say that they will let you in as long as you can prove that you are living in an EU country?
And will this same theory apply for going by plane?

Thanks again Guys

[tebee]

A lot of it seemed to be going through the motions, rather than careful examination of the documents - I rather think the officer didn't understand French by the by the way he was looking at documents from a distance then turning them over and asking me what they meant. He asked me for our marriage certificate and I give him the original document, which is Thai and all of it, including our names is written in Sanskrit, so I'm sure he did not understand a word of that, but he still accepted it for what I said it was.

Apparently we were the first people to use this. which quite surprised me, so they had to keep asking higher and higher levels what the procedures were.

I agree it appears they did not trust us and I think they should just accept the EU documents, but that's this British Government for
you.

I think if you were flying over you would be in a stronger position having already arrived in the country, but as a minimum I would bring over your marriage documents and separate proofs that you both live and work in the EU.

[alazani28]

A lot of it seemed to be going through the motions, rather than careful examination of the documents - I rather think the officer didn't understand French by the by the way he was looking at documents from a distance then turning them over and asking me what they meant. He asked me for our marriage certificate and I give him the original document, which is Thai and all of it, including our names is written in Sanskrit, so I'm sure he did not understand a word of that, but he still accepted it for what I said it was.

Apparently we were the first people to use this. which quite surprised me, so they had to keep asking higher and higher levels what the procedures were.

I agree it appears they did not trust us and I think they should just accept the EU documents, but that's this British Government for
you.

I think if you were flying over you would be in a stronger position having already arrived in the country, but as a minimum I would bring over your marriage documents and separate proofs that you both live and work in the EU.

May I say that from this day you are a Legend my friend. Believe me This is the best news I have heard in a long time and for it to be physically done is amazing.
I/we the British Public living in EU with our non-eu Spouses cannot thank you enough because you had the courage to try this route out and not only that but you actually informed us about the procedure.

Once again thank you and hope you enjoy your visit\s.

[Obie]

This FOI on exemption from the EEA family permit requirements seems wholly contradictory to McCarthy.

It proceeds on the basis that Mr McCarthy was not a Surinder Singh case. That the judgement does not even apply to Mr McCarthy.

This is ridiculous.

[rosebead]

^ I read that Freedom Of Information request but it's not fully clear what they mean by:

10. It should be noted that this judgement does not affect the rights of family members of
British citizens who have exercised Treaty rights in another EEA member state under
the ‘Surinder Singh’ judgment. Such persons should continue to be considered under
regulation 9 of the EEA Regulations.

Are they saying that entry with an Article 10 residence card is dependent upon satisfying Regulation 9, or are they saying that entry with an Article 10 residence card does not translate to a right of residence in the UK? It's hard to tell with the wording what was exactly meant. If it's the former, then I agree with you that the UK is saying McCarthy does not apply to British sponsors of Article 10 residence cards, which is wholly bizarre considering that Mcarthy was British (also Irish but the UK considers all dual nationals as British). I noticed that the OP of that FOI request has made another FOI request asking for clarification of that paragraph - it will be interesting to see the answer.

[Obie]

Well either of the 2 scenario will be inconsistent with EU law.

McCarthy is British and therefore the UK is wrong to say it will have no effect on British citizens .

Secondly , In the case of OB, the court stated that the rules imposed on the returned national, should not be more restrictive than those applicable to other nationals who enter the UK in order to exercises treaty rights.

I have alluded to the fact that regulation 9 (3) is wholly inconsistent with EU law.

I will try not to give further legitimacy to it, by mentioning it on this thread.

[twhyonline]

Hi guys
Just to let y'all know that we arrived in London Safely yesterday evening via Stansted Airport from Malaga Spain our home/residence after going through the UK IMMIGRATION BORDER AGENCY with my passport my wife's passport and my EU Family Member Residence Card/article 10/20 EU Free Movement Residence and other document's.
OUR ENCOUNTER
We arrived at the first immigration desk after queuing up at the EU passport control lane as I believe this issue is EU Binding ,the immigration officer handed over a landing card which I believe to be a New designed landing card specially designed for EU Family members entering the UK as it only states the following information
1, Names/Surnames. 2, Passport Number. 3 place of issue 4 , Place of Birth. 5, Address of stay in the UK 6, Duration of stay in the UK . 7, Airline Carrier 8, Airline Flight Number 9, Occupation that's All.
She then said after filling the card I should proceed to meet her colleagues at the other counters (other passports counter)I filled the card and handed it over to the next border agency officer at the desk (other passport section)with my passport,RC and my wife's passport.he checked through my wife's passport data page first to see if it's intact and has not been tempered with,he then checked my passport flipping back and front and said you haven't come with a visa and I answered politely I didn't because I own an EU Family Residence Card he smiled and ask if we we're together my woman said yes, he said he would like to see our marriage certificate,we showed him I believed he could bearly understand a thing as everything written on the Spanish marriage certificate are in Spanish no numbers,he then asked when did we get married we said 2011 he said have you any other documents stating that (we had brought along our family book and house certificate registration as we both live together)he requested for the family book he checked through and found what he was looking for the marriage date written in numbers, i then asked him if he needed our house certificate registration he said no with a big smile and said i can see you guys are fully prepared we laughed and said we spent alot of time surfing the Internet on information regarding visiting the UK making sure we had all document's intact before leaving home should incase we are been asked upon (officer still smiling).he asked if we had kids my wife answered him not yet I'm still trying to enjoy myself a bit (officer still smiling)he then said how long are we staying for I said 5 days.He returned all documents except for my passport and Residence card plus landing card he checked through both documents again and made a final question which i believe to be a test he said sorry i forgot the year you guys got married i remember the month i told him politely 2011(he didn't mention a thing until I said that) he further reached out to his colleague on the other desk who Barely has someone to attend to as he was all the time observing the encounter at the desk beside him (us) in a low voice, honestly i don't know if the topic was about us both he was kind of like nodding his head while they were talking (at this point i was like what's next )i strongly believe he wrote all information gathered at the back of my landing card)he stamped my passport with 2 stamps the first reading Admitted to the UK Under EEA Regulations 2006 for 6 months and the second reading the Immigration Stamp dated 14th April 2015 Stansted Airport and handed them over to me with a smile and said enjoy your stay.
well i want to draw a conclusion ( personal opinion) thou from my encounter at the border agency.
1, The UK Accepts Article 10/20 EU Family Members Residence Card to Land at it's Boarders Not a Direct Right Of Entry same reason Airlines wouldn't have any problem flying you down.

2. Right Of Entry will be given only If the border Agency Officer is satisfied that the Union and the document's presented are Real and genuine.

3.UK is implementing the EU Free Movement Law at their borders only and when they are satisfied with (2).

4,They Stamp passports to put checks/Control over EU Family Members they have granted permission for entry with (2)

5, Wedding/Union date is a major concern to them from the look of things I believe minimum 2 to 3 years is enough proof.

6.They are still in full control of their borders implementing the EU Free Movement Directives in context with their own Law .

I forgot to mention we visited Dublin Ireland last 2 week using my passport,wife's passport and RC,the 3 documents were checked at both Spanish/Ireland Borders Wit No Questions Or What So ever like filling landing cards and No Stamps.
Ireland is fully adapting the EU Free Movement Right but in the case of UK it's an obligation you prove your self at the border and that they are satisfied that your union is genuine before they let you in.
with the 6 months EEA Regulation 2006 Stamp i can go in and out or further make an application for a resident permit if my wife gets a job under 3 months. But in my case we are only here for visiting as we both work in Spain which means after 6 months of going in and out visiting, i have to renew the permit once it's expired at the border showing the same document's once again . I must confess its a bit better this way having to save the stress of going to Madrid for a family permit but UK still needs to give direct effect boarder Free Control to EU Family Residence Card Holders Without Questioning,presenting further documentations Or Having to put a Stamp On It every 6 months to further check on them incases of divorce/separation from the EEA national Who gives power to the effect of UK EEA Regulation 2006.
Well guys we are going out to see the city centre thanks everyone i hope someone finds my experience useful..Goodluck everyone

[alazani28]

Hi guys
Just to let y'all know that we arrived in London Safely yesterday evening via Stansted Airport from Malaga Spain our home/residence after going through the UK IMMIGRATION BORDER AGENCY with my passport my wife's passport and my EU Family Member Residence Card/article 10/20 EU Free Movement Residence and other document's.
OUR ENCOUNTER
We arrived at the first immigration desk after queuing up at the EU passport control lane as I believe this issue is EU Binding ,the immigration officer handed over a landing card which I believe to be a New designed landing card specially designed for EU Family members entering the UK as it only states the following information
1, Names/Surnames. 2, Passport Number. 3 place of issue 4 , Place of Birth. 5, Address of stay in the UK 6, Duration of stay in the UK . 7, Airline Carrier 8, Airline Flight Number 9, Occupation that's All.
She then said after filling the card I should proceed to meet her colleagues at the other counters (other passports counter)I filled the card and handed it over to the next border agency officer at the desk (other passport section)with my passport,RC and my wife's passport.he checked through my wife's passport data page first to see if it's intact and has not been tempered with,he then checked my passport flipping back and front and said you haven't come with a visa and I answered politely I didn't because I own an EU Family Residence Card he smiled and ask if we we're together my woman said yes, he said he would like to see our marriage certificate,we showed him I believed he could bearly understand a thing as everything written on the Spanish marriage certificate are in Spanish no numbers,he then asked when did we get married we said 2011 he said have you any other documents stating that (we had brought along our family book and house certificate registration as we both live together)he requested for the family book he checked through and found what he was looking for the marriage date written in numbers, i then asked him if he needed our house certificate registration he said no with a big smile and said i can see you guys are fully prepared we laughed and said we spent alot of time surfing the Internet on information regarding visiting the UK making sure we had all document's intact before leaving home should incase we are been asked upon (officer still smiling).he asked if we had kids my wife answered him not yet I'm still trying to enjoy myself a bit (officer still smiling)he then said how long are we staying for I said 5 days.He returned all documents except for my passport and Residence card plus landing card he checked through both documents again and made a final question which i believe to be a test he said sorry i forgot the year you guys got married i remember the month i told him politely 2011(he didn't mention a thing until I said that) he further reached out to his colleague on the other desk who Barely has someone to attend to as he was all the time observing the encounter at the desk beside him (us) in a low voice, honestly i don't know if the topic was about us both he was kind of like nodding his head while they were talking (at this point i was like what's next )i strongly believe he wrote all information gathered at the back of my landing card)he stamped my passport with 2 stamps the first reading Admitted to the UK Under EEA Regulations 2006 for 6 months and the second reading the Immigration Stamp dated 14th April 2015 Stansted Airport and handed them over to me with a smile and said enjoy your stay.
well i want to draw a conclusion ( personal opinion) thou from my encounter at the border agency.
1, The UK Accepts Article 10/20 EU Family Members Residence Card to Land at it's Boarders Not a Direct Right Of Entry same reason Airlines wouldn't have any problem flying you down.

2. Right Of Entry will be given only If the border Agency Officer is satisfied that the Union and the document's presented are Real and genuine.

3.UK is implementing the EU Free Movement Law at their borders only and when they are satisfied with (2).

4,They Stamp passports to put checks/Control over EU Family Members they have granted permission for entry with (2)

5, Wedding/Union date is a major concern to them from the look of things I believe minimum 2 to 3 years is enough proof.

6.They are still in full control of their borders implementing the EU Free Movement Directives in context with their own Law .

I forgot to mention we visited Dublin Ireland last 2 week using my passport,wife's passport and RC,the 3 documents were checked at both Spanish/Ireland Borders Wit No Questions Or What So ever like filling landing cards and No Stamps.
Ireland is fully adapting the EU Free Movement Right but in the case of UK it's an obligation you prove your self at the border and that they are satisfied that your union is genuine before they let you in.
with the 6 months EEA Regulation 2006 Stamp i can go in and out or further make an application for a resident permit if my wife gets a job under 3 months. But in my case we are only here for visiting as we both work in Spain which means after 6 months of going in and out visiting, i have to renew the permit once it's expired at the border showing the same document's once again . I must confess its a bit better this way having to save the stress of going to Madrid for a family permit but UK still needs to give direct effect boarder Free Control to EU Family Residence Card Holders Without Questioning,presenting further documentations Or Having to put a Stamp On It every 6 months to further check on them incases of divorce/separation from the EEA national Who gives power to the effect of UK EEA Regulation 2006.
Well guys we are going out to see the city centre thanks everyone i hope someone finds my experience useful..Goodluck everyone

Well done for getting through, and thank you for the detailed report.
Just one last question which I think wasn't mentioned. You said your wife's passport may I ask what passport does she hold, because I am British and I want to know if it is the same with British Citizen going to UK with his Non-eu Spouse for Visit.

Many Thanks again

[twhyonline]

@Alazani28 she's Spanish(EU National) well i believe it would almost be the same its just a point of proving at the border that you and your partner have a center of life within the EU I guess,with documents to prove and as i mentioned before the time of marriage matters from what i encountered may be in other cases it might be different ...regards

[alazani28]

@Alazani28 she's Spanish(EU National) well i believe it would almost be the same its just a point of proving at the border that you and your partner have a center of life within the EU I guess,with documents to prove and as i mentioned before the time of marriage matters from what i encountered may be in other cases it might be different ...regards

Aaah OK, Thanks again, I have our marriage certificate in Arabic & English and we been married 3 1/2 years with 1 child 2 year old.
And I have strong center of life here in Germany.

Many Thanks
and have a good holiday.

[twhyonline]

U have nothing else to prove it's a Goal for me after everything uve stated you shouldn't have any problem i strongly believe. just take along your marriage certificate /family book identifying the child both of you have/your passport/spouse's passport/eu family residence card issued by Germany other documents will be proof of centre of life in Germany with your spouse then you are good to go....thanks and Good luck

[daddy]

Twyonline, I would like to remind you that you are lucky for the airline to allow you to board. You indicated that your wife is a Spanish national living in her country (SPAIN), and you did not indicate whether she previously worked in another EU country before returning to Spain (her country) to settle, under surrinder sing case law.

However, your admission into UK is based on the fact that you are a spouse of an EU national, and already present at the UK boarder and the immigration Officer is satisfied that you are a family member of EU national following the documents you presented.

In order words, your residence card was not issued under article 10 or 20 of directives 2004/EC. The airline official may not be aware of this, because your Spanish residence card may have been worded " Residence Card of family member of EU citizen" in Spanish language.

There is difference between residence card issued under article 10 of EU Directives and a residence card issued under national immigration law of a member state, in your case Spain. But there is an exemption is in the case of Surrinder Sing.

You do have the right under EU FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT, the Directive, to enter UK with your EU spouse, but the type of your Spanish residence card does NOT exempt you from visa requirement, if the Airline are aware of this, they would have not allowed you to board without family permit. In any case if you happen to get to the UK border, they will let you in based on your EU family member status.
Just needed to make this clear for the sake of other members here. Enjoy your stay bro!
Thanks,
Daddy.

[martiner99]

Just a quick question please regarding my query earlier on. Slovak national with Iranian wife (which has Slovak Residence card issued under national law). Pending application for UK Residence Card. We need to travel urgently in 2 weeks and I am unsure about re-entering UK. People mentioned that we will be refused boarding and I am not going to risk it. So we decided to take the bus instead. We plan to take Eurolines bus from Brussels to London.

I have spoken to Immigration in Heathrow and they told me, that if we have our marriage certificate with us and my wife and some payslips, my wife has pending application with HO for Residence Card, we won't really have problems entering UK. I am not that confident though, today I have called again and different officer told me that it won't be possible without EEA Family Permit. They don't care that getting Family Permit takes 2 to 3 weeks. Told me to call Immigration at EuroTunnel and ask there. Which I am not really able to find contact for.

It is horrible truly, each day different answer, opinions, etc. I have lived in Malaysia before and thought their Immigration rules and officers are so confused, I have never imagined it could be worse in what we call developed country.
I am not sure if we should risk it or not, I am optimistic by nature, but if my wife was refused entry, it would cause us too many problems.

[daddy]

From what you explained, I understand that you (the EU national) is already living in UK with your spouse and you are exercising your treaty right by working or through another means, if that is the case, follow the advice of the first immigration officer, his advice is good. Make sure that you have your marriage certificate and copies of your payslip as prove of your activity in UK.

But my friendly advice to you will be " don't risk it" just wait for your wife to receive her residence card.
Cheers

[martiner99]

Thanks for your reply and for your friendly advice I understand what you mean. I am so frustrated though, by the fact that such country as UK doesn't really have proper rules which would be clear to all. It is a mystery to me, how one officer says that, while other one says different things. It is a shame. If that Residence Card didn't take that long, i would get it. But 6 months ... (it took 3 weeks in Slovakia for my wife to get her Residence Card there). I will try to get hold of Immigration at EuroTunnel somehow, get a good sleep and make decision tomorrow. To travel or not to travel