Discussion on Compensation

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Mod Edit: Ref this thread http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... &start=200

Finally! Congratulations! A 2 weeks journey turned out to be a 7 months one.

I wonder what have caused them to change the decision. Maybe someone in the policy team realised the nonsense in the refusal letters.

Get the visa, do your preparations for the move (it is not easy), complain and seek compensation.

Let me also add my very large congratulations.

I think it is clear what made them change their decision: The OP was doggedly contacting people in UKBA, and not just letting the matter fall into some gutter there. The OP did not give up!

I also agree with the last sentence above: get the visa, move, and seek compensation!

[keffers]

The last bit spoilt it.

The applicants have already hit the jackpot courtesy of a historical colonial quirk unavailable to about 990 million other Indians.

Congrats, move on and get working and paying UK taxes instead of looking to take tax in the form of compensation before you have even paid a penny piece into the UK tax system.

Don't waste your time and energy trying to get one over UKBA. Enjoy your new life and the fruits of yout labour.

Send the ECO a postcard from the UK with "missing you" on. Far more therapeutic, I would have thought.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The applicants have already hit the jackpot courtesy of a historical colonial quirk unavailable to about 990 million other Indians.

Congrats, move on and get working and paying UK taxes instead of looking to take tax in the form of compensation before you have even paid a penny piece into the UK tax system.

Don't waste your time and energy trying to get one over UKBA. Enjoy your new life and the fruits of yout labour.

Wow! I am deeply impressed. I could not have even dreamed of a posting like this if I had tried.

"Get one over UKBA"? In what way? Are you referring to the fact that UKBA broke the law for the last 7 months with these individuals, and repeatedly refused to issue them a visa when it should have been a trivially issued a few days after the initial application?

If UKBA had followed the law, these individuals would have been working in the UK for the past 6 months and paying taxes to HMRC in addition to earning a decent living. Instead they have had to live in suspense wondering when UKBA might get its act together, and had to pay their savings to do so.

But you are right. Taxpayers in the UK do pay if UKBA does not do things properly. It should be strong motivation for UKBA to get its operations in order. But I doubt UKBA is really capable as an organization of making the required changes.

[keffers]

Sadly, what used to be the American disease has spread to the UK ie seek compensation for the slightest inconvenience (how anyone could claim to be hard done by, for having to live in their own country for several months is beyond me).

The advice given to Donald_f has been very good. He has persevered and succeeded which is reward enough. Encouraging people to seek compensation just undermines the well-meaning (free, without seeking payment) advice offered on this board.

If he is to be encouraged to anything it is to complain directly to the UKBA Director responsible for overseas operations so as to try and ensure the same does not happen to anyone else.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

If he is to be encouraged to anything it is to complain directly to the UKBA Director responsible for overseas operations so as to try and ensure the same does not happen to anyone else.

I hope that happens too, but I doubt it will be as effective as a large fine.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

If he is to be encouraged to anything it is to complain directly to the UKBA Director responsible for overseas operations so as to try and ensure the same does not happen to anyone else.

I would encourage this.

[Pablito]

Sadly, what used to be the American disease has spread to the UK ie seek compensation for the slightest inconvenience (how anyone could claim to be hard done by, for having to live in their own country for several months is beyond me).

Keffer i am really shaken that there are people who actually think that 7 months is slightest inconvenience, I am wondering what in your opinion a human being may be doing or not be doing within 7 months, because his lawful right was taken away by either incompetence or mischief, is it in your opinion that after all people who are mistreated should have no right for justice by means of compensation but only feel obligation to pay taxes? You are telling us here that an individual not only should follow the law of a country even if he may like it or not but he should also dispense himself from what is lawful for his benefit?

[keffers]

The inconvenience of living in your own country? Give me a break.

Why is an apology not enough? Why the need for financial reward?

As a matter of interest do you think that all the illegal immigrants who do not have a right to stay in the UK and have no regard for the immigration laws of the UK should be deported asap or should due process take place?

Should the UK seek compensation from them? Fine them for all the time and effort involved in deporting them?

EEA applications are free. Sometimes you get what you pay for.

Incompetence or downright obstruction is annoying but the default action of trying to get money as a result of it is pathetic - especially when alls well that ends well.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Better get used to complying with rules and regulations. That's the British way - didn't you know that?

You are right. It is the British way, and is one of the things that is lovely in the UK.

But rules, regulations and laws also apply to UKBA. That is the British way, that the rule of law also applies to the government. UKBA is not complying with the law, and so there are and will continue to be legal consequences for them. It just makes sense. Otherwise what sort of organization would they be?

[keffers]

UKBA has complied with the law. It may have been a struggle to obtain compliance based on differeing interpretations but Donald_f has succeeded.

An individual (or perhaps a team effort) has attempted to apply an interpretation that has been accepted as being wrong. Effort should be put into finding out whether it is local policy under pressure from head office or incomptence.

Money should not be the incentive but the desire to ensure it does not happen to someone else should.

[Pablito]

The main motif driving my conviction that in this sort of case apology isn't enough is simply the fact of human nature which says that if you don't need to take any responsibility for your conduct you may as well be either ignorant or play your own game as it pleases you. I don't say that apology isn't enough in any case I just say that in this case apology isn't enough.

You mentioned "living in your own country" An EEA National is in this case Indian who took Portuguese nationality meaning that she is also EEA Citizen and her right of free movement shouldn't be restrained. It doesn't in my opinion matter whether she is in her own country or not.

Seeking compensation is in my opinion that one can expect some changes to ever happen! It doesn't need to be for the mere fact of acquiring some money out of this whole business of bringing your husband to UK. If other people have different reasons this shouldn't be judged in prejudice as i sense you may be feeling about it and even if it was for the sake of money what is so much surprising in that? Do we live in the world where money doesn't count? Well i don't know you personally i wonder what is your opinion about that? or what is your personal circumstances. Because it often seems to me that those who usually possess much are speaking about the issue how money isn't important to care of.

On the subject of illegal immigrants i think is broad and i would rather not take extreme notion that once you are illegal you should be instantly removed, but rather consider each case individually.

It's up to UK what they want to do once a person is removed i can't say much about it.

You had the right to express your opinion as i do, for me the question is on which side argument is much more overwhelming to look at the reality of views expressed.

[ukforever]

UKBA has complied with the law. It may have been a struggle to obtain compliance based on differeing interpretations but Donald_f has succeeded.

An individual (or perhaps a team effort) has attempted to apply an interpretation that has been accepted as being wrong. Effort should be put into finding out whether it is local policy under pressure from head office or incomptence.

Money should not be the incentive but the desire to ensure it does not happen to someone else should.

well,i think that money is a very nice motivating tool,as for people to have desire to ensure it not gonna happen again,i don't think so,yet again we are hearing every day stories about people like DONALD_F,and it's not looking like its gonna stop just by *desire*.

im sure that if donald_f and more people with similar cases get the right compensation they deserve on the mistreatment this organisation is making people endure,i'm pretty sure that not one or many but all on that forum would agree with me that,the ukba around the globe will think not once,not twice but three times before refusing someone his right.

they need to train people well,(at least the right regulations)why they pay them then??
who's going to make sure it's not going to happen again?

Money should not be the incentive but the desire to ensure it does not happen to someone else should.[/quote]

we don't live in a fantasy world,if i as a citizen don't comply/respect to a law in any country and they oblige me to pay fines or else,i guess i have to obey and pay my way,why ukba is not liable for such a thing when they clearly breached eu laws and on the top putting people's life on hold,because some idiot doesn't know/interpret the law..!!!as bloggers we all did see that they were in fault(we are not lawyers or anything,just common sense really on EU laws/2006 EEA regulations.

when people get compensation ,UKBA will MAKE sure there is guidelines(ah,wait a minute,they have one but the ECO AND ECM ignored it) or event a law that prevent such a thing to even happen.
peoples have rights everywhere in the world and the ukba needs to comply with those rules and not breach them all the time.

[keffers]

The money that donald_f could get is a drop in the ocean to the money UKBA spend defending bogus claims under EEA Regulations and it will not make any difference - even if he were to receive money. But in that respect, should EEA relatives be fined for assisting in clearly bogus applications?

Money recovered could then be used to compensate genuine applicants who have been subject to delay through incompentence / vindictiveness? A great money saving idea. Of course UKBA's time could be better spent looking at outstanding applications but the selfish litigant cares nothing about that.

Whether from a legal perspective donald_f can prove a loss and be compensated is neither here nor there but to read posts encouraging him to seek compensation, it is clear that some have an ulterior motive; an agenda; a thing about 'authority'. In common British parlance, it's what is called 'having a chip on your shoulder'.

[Pablito]

I think if there is level of incompetence then it is to be blamed on UkBA or on whoever is responsible for implementation of law in their own guidance for ECOs.

Secondly i think this 'drop in the ocean' is a good start, if there are more people who would be aware that life is not only about satisfying our own personal interest but also to contribute to others people lives we could make happen a lot more. I think very good example of this is case of Metock, what if that gentleman was to accept his fate and not to fight for his rights? One man and he was able to change a lot! Shall we then discourage people from fighting for their rights and for rights of others? I don't quite understand the hidden agenda you are talking about I wonder if you don't have hidden agenda yourself? It feels that way anyway

[keffers]

Good old Metock. It was a case that helped relatives of mine no end. No need to have lived in an EEA country and all that.

However, we are not talking about 'rights' or an arguable opposing interpretation of a law (for that is why we employ judges). This is about imagined damage for which some feel the only solution is monetary compensation.

In donald_f's case there is no case for money to compensate for his alleged mistreatment. He had to live in his own country for a few months more? Wow!

Presumeably you are all for the UKBA enforcing their rights to deport illegal immigrants asap; without delay; in an effecient and knowledgable manner. Instead of the incompetent manner which allows illegal immigrants cases to be 'lost' somewhere in the system. It works both ways, you see.

Or do you want your cake and to also eat it?

[Obie]

It is the right of an individual to seek damage or reparation for any loss or damages caused to them, by a failure of a national authority to give effect to their right, or infrigement of it. This is a principle embedded in community law.

You may choose not to, for personal reasons,but this does not fetter others from taking contrary view or action.

I must say, i find your position, and imposition of you views on others, incredibly odd indeed.

[nobodysperfect]

He had to live in his own country for a few months more? Wow!

Do you understand that he was planning to migrate to the UK with his family and not come here on holidays? Do you know anything about his qualifications, experience and the money he could have earned in seven months if he had his visa sorted initially. Neither you or anyone else here can comment on what he has lost over the seven months and if it would have any monetary value to it or not. So it is not about he spent a few months in his own country but his life has been delayed by seven months due to administrative error by UKBA. Who are you to say there is no monetary value to seven months of his life?

The Directive has clearly layed the rights of an EU citizen and his family and UKBA has its own interpretation of the same publicly available. If 100s of people on this forum can understand and comment on an individual`s case why is it so hard for UKBA staff to put it in practice. This RATHER is a waste of tax payers money in my opinion than offering compensation to people who definitely deserve it.

Donald_f you definitely should seek compensation.

[Pablito]

Well what do you suggest then? Me and my wife applied for permit in January i guess let's just wait for few months maybe a year, who knows? and then maybe finally we will get response that after all they think we are marriage of convenience because they can't really see that we are not, well i guess we should also feel guilty on the spot because me and my wife want to visit or live in UK. From what i read most of the people are terrified because they applied for family permit and they don't feel sure that they are genuine married, what do you reckon? maybe most of those people didn't really genuinely get married? I have a friend who don't want to apply for another couple of months because she is afraid that she will be labeled 'marriage of convenience' so what do you think, are all those people in collective paranoia? or maybe UKBA is? or maybe better to say they exactly know what they are doing?

[keffers]

If an application is submitted incorrectly, thus wasting the time and money of UKBA (taxpayers) and perhaps causing delay to third parties do you think that such an applicant should be penalised with a monetary fine?

That persistant applications from the same individuals without a chance of success should incur a fee? Or that a UKBA employee should be able to sue such an individual for the frustration and anxiety caused by such spurious and/or dishonest applications?

UKBA employees are humans too. They too have rights and so should they be able to sue the time wasters and liars who cause delays to genuine applicants?

Why shouldn't everyone climb aboard the money making compensation bandwagon?

Then again people could just get on with their lives and think themselves extremely lucky that faceless bureaucrats have drawn up laws that have given them an almighty advantage over people, who in all honesty, have a much stronger claim to be able to live and work in this country.

But for some people - its just not enough.

[nobodysperfect]

If an application is submitted incorrectly, thus wasting the time and money of UKBA (taxpayers) and perhaps causing delay to third parties do you think that such an applicant should be penalised with a monetary fine?

You like to go off the topic and argue, don`t you? Incorrect application? The EEA FP needs to be supported by EEA national ID, Non EEA national`s PP, evidence of the relationship and CSI, if needed. How can someone make a mistake in supplying these four documents with their applications? May be you indeed know someone who did , so I cant blame you.

UKBA employees are humans too. They too have rights and so should they be able to sue the time wasters and liars who cause delays to genuine applicants?

The UKBA staff gets a decent Salary to handle these cases and apart from the EEA applications for all the other application there is a very heavy application fees charged by UKBA to handle these cases.

Then again people could just get on with their lives and think themselves extremely lucky that faceless bureaucrats have drawn up laws that have given them an almighty advantage over people, who in all honesty, have a much stronger claim to be able to live and work in this country.

I guess you also dont understand the EU directive lays the rights for all EU citizens including the British. There are thousands of British expats enjoying the same rights in other EU states. Isn`t that something like "you want to eat the cake and also have it"

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Keffers: The rule of law is worth considering a little bit

[keffers]

For those who hide behind the mantra 'Its in the Directive' 'Its a right in the Directive', I will confidentally state that nowhere in any discussions preceeding the enactment of the Directive was it planned or envisgaed that it would be for the benefit of those who by a quirk of history could lay claim to the citizenship of an EU country and thus make an application to live within the EU for themselves, their parents or grandparents without any family member ever having lived in Europe for generations.

Additionally it was never envisgaged that it would extend to uncles, cousins, half-brothers etc etc etc, if the 'new' EU national were to move to another country.

These rights have been determined by judges and are much to the advantage of people such as donald_f. He is a very lucky man and so is anyone in his situation. To encourage such a person to seek financial redress that stems from his good fortune to be connected to someone with such a tenuous link to an EU country, while others with far greater connections are denied (after having paid money a plenty) is like biting the hand that will be feeding you.

Hopefully donald_f has a bit of common sense and just gets on with his new life without rancour or bitterness but with a real sense of appreciation and thanks.

A reasonable letter of complaint is all that he need do.

[Obie]

I believe this thread has runned it course. If there is nothing productive, i may have to lock it.

[ukforever]

The money that donald_f could get is a drop in the ocean to the money UKBA spend defending bogus claims under EEA Regulations and it will not make any difference - even if he were to receive money. But in that respect, should EEA relatives be fined for assisting in clearly bogus applications?

Money recovered could then be used to compensate genuine applicants who have been subject to delay through incompentence / vindictiveness? A great money saving idea. Of course UKBA's time could be better spent looking at outstanding applications but the selfish litigant cares nothing about that.

Whether from a legal perspective donald_f can prove a loss and be compensated is neither here nor there but to read posts encouraging him to seek compensation, it is clear that some have an ulterior motive; an agenda; a thing about 'authority'. In common British parlance, it's what is called 'having a chip on your shoulder'.

yet again,some people don't get that as citizens we try to comply by the law,some don't i'm afraid and i agree that they should be punished,but i don't agree on the fact that the UKBA when they mess around the world about people's life refusing them their rights,its not one,or tens or hundreds or thousands its tens of thousands of peoples who are refused wrongly(not just EEA FP)by ignorance or deliberately and who do you think is paying the price,not the ukba but those peoples who their life's were and are on hold,they make them wait,put them through hell,appeals,court hearings,its a time consuming and costing money too..
also as citizens and residents of the uk and tax payers we are the ones who are paying the price,not the ukba,for the ECO or ECM its business as usual,they are keeping doing what they are doing because they can and no one is doing anything about it.
u can't even possibly imagine how much the tax payers are paying each year on legal aid or on the cost of those applications on appeal...!!!and at the end of the day the appellant wins,why on earth would anyone let them get away with it,they are incompetent and its immoral what they are doing to peoples.
they need to train peoples right,employ the right persons and stop messing around,WE tax payers are the ones paying the bill,not the ukba.