complicated surinder singh case

[diamond_diamond]

hi i am reaing on forum for while i hope i get some good advice
i got a bit complicated case
i am non eu national married to british citizen i previously lived in uk and i was on asylum i met my wife in uk and my case got refused i was removed from uk .
in my asylum claim the country i mention was not my original country so i was removed to that country.
my wife joined me in my country we got married in my country and i got my passport and we lived there for about 2 years before we moved to belgium where my wife is exercising treaty right for about 13 months and i got residence card as family member of eu citizen .
we got 1 child also he is british citizen and born in uk .
my name appears on his certificate.
now we want to come back to uk under singh route. but i dont know how we can do that as with ukba my name is bit different and country of origin is different now i am on my original details if i apply for eea family permit and with biometrics my details on my passport and if they check my previous asylum dat will be different can i be refused for that.
or is there any way i can write a covering letter to explain the situation what happend .
is there any chance if i write a covering letter and i will be issued a eea family permit even after getting refused at appeal .
please help me to sort this matter it will be a big favour on us as at the minute we cant think any solution and my wife wants to live in uk.
and if thats not possible we are thinking to either move to ireland as its english speaking country.
i hope i will get some advice to come out of this situation .

[Lucapooka]

we moved to belgium where my wife is exercising treaty right for about 13 months and i got residence card as family member of eu citizen .

Were these economic treaty rights derived from employment or self-employment?

[diamond_diamond]

thanks for reply
self employement we runing a small business

[ukforever]

thanks for reply
self employement we runing a small business

hi diamond,
in my view u have nothing to worry about,u have the right to go back to the uk with your wife,because she was exercising her treaty rights in belgium as worker(self employed) and therefor she is considered as an EEA citizen not as a british under national rules,she will be treated as an EEA citizen who exercised treaty rights in another EEA country,so if u apply for a family permit,u shouldn't have any problem,but knowing the uk and its laws,they will try probably to ask for a lot of documents for u to prove about the lenth of your relationship and your emigration history,and after what u said about it,i guess and this is only my opinion,u would be in a position where they will make u wait long time to process a simple request to get that permit,or they will ask unnecessary paper work to prove everything and it would be a time consuming situation..knowing that in EU laws,for a family permit u don't need to show anything else but your passport,your wife's passport and your marriage certificate ..

what i would suggest is to avoid all this ,u need to get to calais,with your wife,your baby,and then just get to the uk side of the borders,u will have to pass the french side first as they will ask u for a valid visa to the uk first,u need just to convince them that u have the right to travel with your wife to uk even without a visa and your wife has to tell them that she is using her treaty rights,and then they will let u in..afterwords your wife needs to speak to the immigration officer at the calais port(uk side) she need to print out the EU laws regarding the surinder singh case,and some laws that will allow u to use that right to get access to the uk under the ukba regulations of the EEA REGULATIONS 2006..THE REGULATIONS..paragraph 9...anyway,i'll tell u in details later in another thread if u are interested about this route,but its like the family permit,they will let u in under a stump code 1A for 6 month and when u are in the uk,u are allowed to work and u can apply straight away for a residence card..the point is,u need just to show your passport,your wifes passport,marriage certificate and a proof that u were living together in another EEA state and that your wife was exercising her treaty rights,that's all and they can't refuse u because under the uk's EEA regulations they can't refuse u entry and they have to give u every opportunity to prove your case even if u don't have a visa or a valid family permit.
let me know if u want more clarifications.

[ukforever]

thanks for reply
self employement we runing a small business

hi diamond,
in my view u have nothing to worry about,u have the right to go back to the uk with your wife,because she was exercising her treaty rights in belgium as worker(self employed) and therefor she is considered as an EEA citizen not as a british under national rules,she will be treated as an EEA citizen who exercised treaty rights in another EEA country,so if u apply for a family permit,u shouldn't have any problem,but knowing the uk and its laws,they will try probably to ask for a lot of documents for u to prove about the lenth of your relationship and your emigration history,and after what u said about it,i guess and this is only my opinion,u would be in a position where they will make u wait long time to process a simple request to get that permit,or they will ask unnecessary paper work to prove everything and it would be a time consuming situation..knowing that in EU laws,for a family permit u don't need to show anything else but your passport,your wife's passport and your marriage certificate ..

what i would suggest is to avoid all this ,u need to get to calais,with your wife,your baby,and then just get to the uk side of the borders,u will have to pass the french side first as they will ask u for a valid visa to the uk first,u need just to convince them that u have the right to travel with your wife to uk even without a visa and your wife has to tell them that she is using her treaty rights,and then they will let u in..afterwords your wife needs to speak to the immigration officer at the calais port(uk side) she need to print out the EU laws regarding the surinder singh case,and some laws that will allow u to use that right to get access to the uk under the ukba regulations of the EEA REGULATIONS 2006..THE REGULATIONS..paragraph 9...anyway,i'll tell u in details later in another thread if u are interested about this route,but its like the family permit,they will let u in under a stump code 1A for 6 month and when u are in the uk,u are allowed to work and u can apply straight away for a residence card..the point is,u need just to show your passport,your wifes passport,marriage certificate and a proof that u were living together in another EEA state and that your wife was exercising her treaty rights,that's all and they can't refuse u because under the uk's EEA regulations they can't refuse u entry and they have to give u every opportunity to prove your case even if u don't have a visa or a valid family permit.
let me know if u want more clarifications.

at port they are not going to take your biometrics,or check your immigration history,i don't think they will have time to do that,what they have to make sure of is that your wife was exercising treaty rights in another EEA country and check your passport and hers ,and that's it.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

About Belgium:

Keep all evidence that the British citizen is working. Copies of tax filings, contracts, evidence of sales, receipts, bank account statements for the company, etc... Keep everything that proves or is evidence that she has been self-employed.

Since the she is not working as an employee, there are likely not pay slips or an employment contract. That makes keeping all the bits even more important.


About entry into the UK:
I personally think it may be best in this case to apply for an EEA Family Permit. Especially since you have an irregular immigration status in the past, and your wife has been self employed in Belgium.

Assuming you have solid evidence of self-employment, it should be a straight forward application.

You can refused if you have previous criminal convictions in the UK that resulted in a prison sentence of more than a year for certain serious crimes, and if you are an ongoing threat to society. Otherwise you can not be refused.

Be honest on the application form. Do not lie.

[el patron]

and i got residence card as family member of eu citizen .

ROI now accepts EU residence cards as generally equivalent to visas and ROI has a shared land-border with the UK without overt immigration control (at least for travel by private car). Even if you were challenged at the ROI/NI border, treaty rights would still apply and you would have an entitlement to enter if travelling with your spouse (of course as pointed out by ' Directive/2004/38/EC' carrying detailed evidence of your wife's self-employment in Belgium would be essential)

[ukforever]

and i got residence card as family member of eu citizen .

ROI now accepts EU residence cards as generally equivalent to visas and ROI has a shared land-border with the UK without overt immigration control (at least for travel by private car). Even if you were challenged at the ROI/NI border, treaty rights would still apply and you would have an entitlement to enter if travelling with your spouse (of course as pointed out by ' Directive/2004/38/EC' carrying detailed evidence of your wife's self-employment in Belgium would be essential)

i thought the point was to get a sort of proof he got in the uk for him to be able to apply for RC so unless he has a family permit applied for from the british embassy in belgium or he gets a code 1A at the calais port witch is the quickest way to get to the uk by the way rather than going to the ROI and do the same process and have proof..i've read some threads about the ROI and the UK ports(CTA)are some times not guarded by immigration officers from both sides,so it would be illegal for him to get to the uk knowing the the uk don't accept other residence card from non EU citizens that they were not issued or delivered by the uk..so how can he then lodge an application for RC ..??with no proof or stamp on his passport that he got in the uk lawfully ..can anyone correct me if i'm wrong..!!!

[el patron]

so how can he then lodge an application for RC ..??with no proof or stamp on his passport that he got in the uk lawfully ..can anyone correct me if i'm wrong..!!!

There you have the essence of the free-standing nature of 'treaty rights', certainly for EEA nationals and their direct family members. You have treaty rights or you don't have them, but you don't have to ask if you can have them!

[ukforever]

so how can he then lodge an application for RC ..??with no proof or stamp on his passport that he got in the uk lawfully ..can anyone correct me if i'm wrong..!!!

There you have the essence of the free-standing nature of 'treaty rights', certainly for EEA nationals and their direct family members. You have treaty rights or you don't have them, but you don't have to ask if you can have them!

i'm not asking if i/we have that right,i know that if anyone is in that position their rights are safeguarded,i was just responding to the fact that u suggested that this couple could try the ROI route,witch i did explain is riskier than the other routes(i.e. calais under singh)..this is what i understood after reading the threads...maybe the safest is to apply for the FP,but as we all know,they could be refused,everyone knows the ukba and their ways ..
what i mean is,calais is probably the safest and closest of all routes and cheapest money wise,so at the end of the day,we are just here to look in the best way to help this couple/couples and we may disagree on how,but we mean well and at the end of the day,its their decision.
and as i explained in my last thread,to apply in the uk for RC u need to hold either a family permit or entry clearance stamp(code 1A) on your passport then u would be allowed to apply under the uk's 2006 eea regulations,*the regulations*..that was my main concern if the couple travel through the common travel area where there is times where there is no immigration officers guarding borders to issue any stamp on the passport,and im sure u can find similar stories and threads on this site or other websites about people crossing the borders without anyone being in their way.
i hope u can see what im trying to say and not what im not trying to say.

[el patron]

what i mean is,calais is probably the safest and closest of all routes and cheapest money wise,so at the end of the day,we are just here to look in the best way to help this couple/couples and we may disagree on how,but we mean well and at the end of the day,its their decision.

Yes, but you can board a plane to ROI with the Residence Document, I suppose it depends how far you have to travel to Calais compared with how far you have to travel to get to an airport with flights to ROI?

[ukforever]

what i mean is,calais is probably the safest and closest of all routes and cheapest money wise,so at the end of the day,we are just here to look in the best way to help this couple/couples and we may disagree on how,but we mean well and at the end of the day,its their decision.

Yes, but you can board a plane to ROI with the Residence Document, I suppose it depends how far you have to travel to Calais compared with how far you have to travel to get to an airport with flights to ROI?

well this was my point actually with this thread,this couple lives in belgium witch is not really far from calais,so thats why i suggested its better for them to go from there,if they drive it will take less time,less money,if they fly they still need to take the ferry from the closest ferry port in ROI,and then it depends where they are going to go in the uk if its london,they are going to travel a long way either by train or by car if they rent one or take another plane...but if they go through calais ,london is just few hours from dover..not forgetting the time of the ferry that will take from dublin to the closest port in the uk its around 6 to 8 hours i think if im not mistaken..it could be interesting to make it like an assignment,to find out witch is the quickest and cheapest and the safest to get to the uk

[ukforever]

what i mean is,calais is probably the safest and closest of all routes and cheapest money wise,so at the end of the day,we are just here to look in the best way to help this couple/couples and we may disagree on how,but we mean well and at the end of the day,its their decision.

Yes, but you can board a plane to ROI with the Residence Document, I suppose it depends how far you have to travel to Calais compared with how far you have to travel to get to an airport with flights to ROI?

well this was my point actually with this thread,this couple lives in belgium witch is not really far from calais,so thats way i suggested its better for them to go from there,if they drive it will take less time,less money,if they fly they still need to take the ferry from the closest ferry port in ROI,and then it depends where they are going to go in the uk if its london,they are going to travel a long way either by train or by car if they rent one or take another plane...but if they go through calais ,london is just few hours from dover..not forgetting the time of the ferry that will take from dublin to the closest port in the uk its around 6 to 8 hours i think if im not mistaken..it could be interesting to make it like an assignment,to find out witch is the quickest and cheapest and the safest to get to the uk

also don't forget that it could be harder when u are traveling with a child/kids..!!!

[ukforever]

hi guys some updates on travel from calais to dover and cost compared to ROI route.

**calais-dover with 2 adults+1 child traveling with a car =£37.50...1h30 journey.

https://ssl.directferries.com/ferry/sec ... SU7UG9M%3d

**and with no car its £73.50+train cost to calais from belgium+expenses .

https://ssl.directferries.com/ferry/sec ... r=1&psgr=1


**dublin-holyheads: 2 adults+1 child with no car=£90...3h30 journey+flight cost from belgium to dublin+ expenses .

https://ssl.directferries.com/ferry/sec ... r=2&psgr=1

the distance between calais and london is 107 miles-172 klm(if driving)
the distance between dublin and london is 289 miles-466 klm(if driving)

i hope this would help

[diamond_diamond]

hi guys many thanks for replying in so details specially ukforever ,el patron. and directive . all of you and this can help a lot of other people who are in situation like me forum is realy helpfull.
now we can decide which route shall we try.

[ukforever]

hi guys many thanks for replying in so details specially ukforever ,el patron. and directive . all of you and this can help a lot of other people who are in situation like me forum is realy helpfull.
now we can decide which route shall we try.

your'e welcome diamond,
what i would suggest is,if u live near the borders ,like in the south of belgium is the best way for u,regardless of where u live anyway,the distance between any part from belgium to calais is far better than thinking to go through ROI,because when u get from a plane in dublin,u need to take the ferry to holyheads(around 6 to 7 hours) and there is no guarantee u are going to be stumped at the borders..!!and then from there u have to go to liverpool to take either a train or plane..for me personally ,its a big trip and knowing u are going to take a child with u,the shorter is the better,and u are going to take possibly 2 planes a train,a ferry...ect,not easy to do..but if u go through calais ,u are going probably to take a car to drive there or take a train then the ferry,then another train to london from dover..still the quickest and the cheapest and there is a guarantee that if u pass ,u are going to get a stump on your non-eea passport...

[ukforever]

this might help too ,its an email response from the ukba to someone who requested freedom of information inquiry .

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/7 ... r.pdf.html

[ukforever]

hi guys many thanks for replying in so details specially ukforever ,el patron. and directive . all of you and this can help a lot of other people who are in situation like me forum is realy helpfull.
now we can decide which route shall we try.

hi,any news/updates??

[diamond_diamond]

hi ukforever ,directive2004, el patron and every one who replied specially ukforever many thanks .
and update is we still did not try any thing and we cn not leave another 2 months just because of money we paid in deposit of property and business premises .
in next 2 months we are going to try and see the out come and will update for benefit of others .
many thanks again

[Ayyubi72]

Employment paperwork is pretty straightforward in any country, but right now there seems to be not much employment around EU countries, and thus making surinder singh route difficult.

Have noticed that many people are choosing self-employment-surinder-singh route.

Could members be kind enough to share some information about procedures in various countries to start self employment.