Surinder Singh again!!

[chrisd2601]

Hi Everyone,
I know this subject has been discussed many times, but I am over 60 and some of it doesn't always sink in!! please be patient. The story:
My ex-son in law (still part of my family) is now engaged to a young lady from the Phillipines - she is 30, he is 39. As, in line with many others, he doesn't earn the required £18,600 per year, he will eventually marry her and hope to bring her to the UK via the SSR, probably using Ireland as he is not fluent in any european languages.
Clearly marriage is a serious business and he would like to plan their future in advance to hopefully make it a reasonably smooth operation!!

1. After they marry in the Phillipines, can she apply for a residency card immediately before he moves to Ireland. Or a similar document, I am not too familiar with all the documentation.

2. Would she easily be able to board a plane from Phillies to Ireland, via the UK, and be allowed to use the documentation during transit to Ireland?

3. Do they have to rent a flat or would a room in a share house be acceptable?

4. Does he require a visa or similar to travel to and work in Ireland?

5. What documentation/evidence do they require to board a plane in Ireland for the Uk eventually and pass successfully through UK immigration? Alternatively ferry travel from Ireland to UK.

Sorry to ask really simple questions!! I also need really simple answers!!
I have to laugh at myself really as my ex son-in-law was originally an Indian Citizen and I sorted out all the paperwork for him to come to the UK back in 2008, through Tourist Visas, Spouse Visa, ILR and eventual citiizenship, but all this stuff really blows my mind, plus I am now 5 years older.
Many thanks for helpful replies.

[wiggsy]

ok this is a basic help...

1) go to irish embassy and apply for either a Class D (long stay - join eu spouse) or Class C (short stay~ join eu spouse) visa. - this is issued free of charge.
they need to provide both his and her passport. and proof of relationship (marriage cert) if they have just got marriage, even though not required, it might be an idea to supply photos dating back, etc to proove its not a marriage of convenience... (help avoid hassle later)

2) she will be able to board the plane with the visa from 1)... to come into the UK I doubt it... - but once he has been economically active in ireland, and has proof they lived together there, they should be able to apply for an EEA family permit at the british embassy in Dublin. - if the application fails, work a little longer and supply the docs again - AGAIN, this is FREE OF CHARGE.

3) Any home is suitable - I would imagine even an hotel... I have friends at work who live full time in an hotel because its cheaper then paying gas, elec, c / tax and rent - 20 a night or 650/month for just rent... (you do the math)
they just need proof of address for both of them... this can be a tv license (gained from post office for 170 euros for a year - no refund possible, but worth the cost for prooving address), bank statements (open an irish bank using passport and TV license.) / drivers license can be exchanged for 25 euro to an irish one. (i think its free to change back to uk one when return, ALTHOUGH NOT NEEDED - for proof of genuine nature: might be worth it?

4) due to being an EEA national and UK citizen he does not need a visa for two reasons:
- 4.1) british citizens and Irish citizens are free to work in the ROI or UK without limitations due to the Common Travel Area Agreement,
- 4.2) EEA nationals are free to excersise their right to work in any EEA member state.

5) i would suggest ignoring the plane for return and get a ferry...

documents are: proof of address for both in ireland (the same residence)
proof of work for eea (son in law)
passport for both
EU4stamp from garda... (irish immigration stamp) in the wifes passport.

you can apply for an EEA family permit before returning, but note: they cannot turn him away at the port if his work was genuine!

[chrisd2601]

Hi Everyone,
I know this subject has been discussed many times, but I am over 60 and some of it doesn't always sink in!! please be patient. The story:
My ex-son in law (still part of my family) is now engaged to a young lady from the Phillipines - she is 30, he is 39. As, in line with many others, he doesn't earn the required £18,600 per year, he will eventually marry her and hope to bring her to the UK via the SSR, probably using Ireland as he is not fluent in any european languages.
Clearly marriage is a serious business and he would like to plan their future in advance to hopefully make it a reasonably smooth operation!!

1. After they marry in the Phillipines, can she apply for a residency card immediately before he moves to Ireland. Or a similar document, I am not too familiar with all the documentation.

2. Would she easily be able to board a plane from Phillies to Ireland, via the UK, and be allowed to use the documentation during transit to Ireland?

3. Do they have to rent a flat or would a room in a share house be acceptable?

4. Does he require a visa or similar to travel to and work in Ireland?

5. What documentation/evidence do they require to board a plane in Ireland for the Uk eventually and pass successfully through UK immigration? Alternatively ferry travel from Ireland to UK.

Sorry to ask really simple questions!! I also need really simple answers!!
I have to laugh at myself really as my ex son-in-law was originally an Indian Citizen and I sorted out all the paperwork for him to come to the UK back in 2008, through Tourist Visas, Spouse Visa, ILR and eventual citiizenship, but all this stuff really blows my mind, plus I am now 5 years older.
Many thanks for helpful replies.

Hi wiggsy
thanks for your quick really helpful reply.
Couple of question - for her to receive class C or D visa and his passport being required, I guess they will have to both be present.
Not too sure what you mean here 2) she will be able to board the plane with the visa from 1)... to come into the UK I doubt it...
(the doubt bit!)
Good advice about hotel - thanks
Why do you think it is better to get a ferry than plane?
Again thanks.

[wiggsy]

Hi wiggsy
thanks for your quick really helpful reply.
Couple of question - for her to receive class C or D visa and his passport being required, I guess they will have to both be present.
Not too sure what you mean here 2) she will be able to board the plane with the visa from 1)... to come into the UK I doubt it...
(the doubt bit!)
Good advice about hotel - thanks
Why do you think it is better to get a ferry than plane?
Again thanks.

sorry

2) she will have no problems getting on a plane to Ireland.. even via the UK airports.
I doubt she will be allowed out of the airport in the UK though.
they will most likely need to continue to ireland... until he has worked in Ireland, he has no EEA rights, and is only treated as a british citizen - and Directive 2004/38/EC does not apply in the home state except in the circs of the singh case (returning home from work)...

If you get EEA family permit from embassy in dublin, then thats great, either way...

but from peoples experiences, (on the forums etc) i see experiences where EEA family permit failed, but they succeed when approaching a port with documents ETC.

I have yet to do it... still waiting on UKBA to return my wifes passport...

but ireland is the route im approaching... Ill post some info in a sec what might also be useful...

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

There is no need for him to be present at the visa application. And they visa must be processed quickly. A simple visitors visa is all that is required. They can not require the time or information required of a settlement visa. Anything that takes more than 2 weeks is out of bounds unless they suspect (in this specific case) a marriage of convenience.

As an aside, I would encourage them to get 3+ official marriage certificates when they marry. Somebody is always insisting on a copy and it is very helpful to travel with in the EU. Easy to do when you marry, but harder later.

[chrisd2601]

[quote="Directive/2004/38/EC"]There is no need for him to be present at the visa application. And they visa must be processed quickly. A simple visitors visa is all that is required. They can not require the time or information required of a settlement visa. Anything that takes more than 2 weeks is out of bounds unless they suspect (in this specific case) a marriage of convenience.

As an aside, I would encourage them to get 3+ official marriage certificates when they marry. Somebody is always insisting on a copy and it is very helpful to travel with in the EU. Easy to do when you marry, but harder later.[/quote

I though for the visa you had to produce both your passports at the Embassy. Because he will obviously need his with him in Ireland.
Being nosey, what nationality is your wife and are you trying the Spouse Visa route first.
Thanks again

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You can produce a photocopy of the EU citizen's passport if they are not there.

[wiggsy]

You can produce a photocopy of the EU citizen's passport if they are not there.

sorry i forgot that... I actually went off to find some info, but got distracted...

You might need your son in law to supply a supporting letter stating that he is travelling with her to ireland etc too if he isnt present so as to back up the claim of "travelling with, or to meet"

[wiggsy]

Mr. P,

Your wife will need to apply for a "D" class visa, (link to application facility below). She will most liekly need to apply for a "Join Spouse" visa, a checklist of required documents is attached.

Please visit our website for visa application details, documents required, office opening hours, etc: http://www.embassyofireland.co.uk/home/ ... x?id=33732

Regards,

Visa Office,
Embassy of Ireland,
London

Dear Mr P,

Thank you for your e-mail. I have forwarded your Visa query onto the Visa Office so they will be in contact with you re same.

If you plan to work in Ireland you would have to apply for a PPS number, Personal Public Service Number equivalent to NSN, National Security Number in the UK.
If you access the website www.migrantproject.ie and www.citizensinformation.ie all details of above and other relevant information like health and taxes can be accessed.

You will have to contact our Department of Health regarding Health cover and our Department of Environment, Community and Local Government for housing, please access our Government website, www.gov.ie for all contact details.

www.safehomeireland.com is another website that provides information on pensions, benefits, the Irish health care system, Irish benefits available, which British benefits will transfer and which won’t, housing in Ireland, driving and tax.

For property in Ireland, www.daft.ie

I hope this information will be of assistance to you.

Kind regards
Maria

Dear Mr P,


As Indonesian nationals are visa required, you will have to obtain a visa for your wife. Garda National Immigration Bureau does not deal with applications for visas/re-entry visas. They are processed by the Irish Naturalisation & Immigration Service. You can contact that office at visamail@justice.ie. That office will be able to assist you with all inquiries relating to entry to the State for visa-required nationals.

Yours sincerely,

Sent on behalf of
Detective Chief Superintendent,
Garda National Immigration Bureau.

i did send:

(note: Derivative Residence Card is Zambrano application which is currently ongoing in england... even if successful we intend on EEA to enable PR)

Dear Sirs,



Following on from the previous emails below, I am interested in myself and my wife working - to enable us to work in the RoI being a British national, I can legally work in Ireland due to the Common Travel Area. However, My wifes right to reside / work comes from me being an EEA national. Free movement Directive 2004/38/EC specifically states in Article 10 that a visa requirement is to be removed, and a visa can be replaced by use of a family residence permit issued by any EEA member state. I simply wish to know if a Derivative Residence Card would be considered to cover this Residence Card mentioned in Article 10.



I also note that ECJ case C-459/99 (MRAX vs Kingdom of Belgium) ruled the following:

a Member State may not send back at the border a third country national who is married to a national of a Member State and attempts to enter its territory without being in possession of a valid identity card or passport or, if necessary, a visa, where he is able to prove his identity and the conjugal ties.



Should myself and my wife wish to travel to Ireland without a visa, it appears that this is perfectly legal under Directive 2004/38/EC. However, we would wish to work in Ireland.



Should an EEA right of movement be attempted at the border to the UK a Code 1A stamp is issued into the third country nationals passport - should the Residence Card / Visa not be in place. Would there be a simular process in Ireland?



I note that there is an EUFAM Stamp 4, would this be issued at the border, or would myself and wife be able to travel to a Garda station with proof of ID / Marriage / Birth certificates for our children and be issued with an EUFAM Stamp 4 at the time?



Obviously, having to travel to London to be issued with a Visa is a burden which limits my right of free movement with my family members. Whilst I am not attempting to be difficult ETC, it could proove an unnecessary burden on myself to have to travel to London to obtain my wifes visa on no less than two occasions (Application and then to Recieve the Visa).



Should I obtain a job prior to the visa being issued, my start date would be delayed, which with the current Irish ecconomy could result in my employment offer being passed onto somebody else - which would cause further hinderances to myself.



If you could eleaberate on the process for entering Ireland for myself, I would be most greatful. Obviously, with the CTA agreement I am free to live and work in Ireland as I please (as long as it is Legal of course). and EEA rules give me the right of residence if I am working (if movement exceeds 3 months).



Thanks,

W P

which got:

Supt,

Can you advise on a reply, please.

Regards,
Cathal

Dear Mr P,

Please disregard previous e mail. It was sent to you in error. Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Regards,
Cathal
GNIB

Dear Mr P,

Thank you for your further inquiry. As the matters you have outlined relate to entry to the State and residence within the State under the Free Movement of Persons Directive, it would be more appropriate to address this inquiry to the Irish Naturalisation & Immigration Service who deal with both of these matters. They can be contacted at info@justice.ie

Yours sincerely,
Sent of behalf of
Chief Superintendent
Garda National Immigration Bureau

I then sent above email again onto them...

Dear Sir/Madam,

I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email.
__________________
Damien Brennan
Private Secretary


Memo

From : WP

To: "info@justice.ie" <info@justice.ie>
cc:
Date : 20/02/2013
Subject: Fw: Indonesian wife and mother of UK citizens

Dear W,

I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email.
Please send your phone number and I will ring you and go through your
queries


Kind regards,

Claire
Visa Customer Services
Visa Office, Dublin
Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Services

I responded with phone number...

Claire,



My mobile number is x. However, I would be greatful if you could send me something in writing too.



thanks

W

and no response so:

FAO: Claire

Claire, I responed to this message a couple of weeks ago and have had no response. I actually stated I would also like a written response (email).

Could you confirm that you recieved my telephone number etc?

Yours,
W P
07xxx

Dear W,

Apologies for the delay in responding to your query.

I'll deal with your queries by email, if that's what you'd prefer. On
occasion it's more straightforward to go through queries over the phone.

Non-nationals who are family members of a European Union citizen and
holders of a document called “Residence card of a family member of a Union
citizen” as referred to in Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC of the
European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004, are not subject to an Irish visa requirement. You'll need to confirm with the issuing
authority of the card whether the residence card issued to your wife falls
under this category.

If your wife makes an application for a Visa, she is not obliged to travel
to London to lodge it, she may post the application and include a self
addressed envelope.

This link provides information about making an application at our London
Visa Office:

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/EU ... y%20Rights

Information about EU treaty rights and making an application is available
under the following links:

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/EU ... y%20Rights

Kind regards,

Claire
Visa Customer Services
Visa Office, Dublin
Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Services

I did respond and ask her to call if she could clarify any further than she has in email, but no calls or anything...

I hope this helps some? - not sure if it will