Right to Work in Ireland for non-EEA Spouse of UK Citizen?

[srt]

Hi everyone,

I'm an American and my wife is a UK citizen. We've been working in Asia for a couple of years, earning local salaries which are low by UK standards. So she can't sponsor me to go to the UK.

So we're planning to move to Ireland -- either for long enough for her to meet the UK's financial requirement or, if we like it, perhaps longer. My understanding is that I can enter the country without a visa and that, as the spouse of an EEA citizen, I can stay and work there.

But I'm not sure of the mechanics of how this works. Can I start work immediately? If so, what document can I show prospective employers to prove I have the right to work in Ireland?

Or does she have to have a job so she's deemed to be exercising her EU Treaty Rights before I can go the the GNIB and register and apply for a Stamp 4?

Also, if I enter the country under the visa waiver program can I later still register for a residence card and apply for a Stamp 4? Or do I need to enter on an EEA Family permit?

Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Being a non-visa national, you would not require an entry visa. Once in Ireland, you can apply for a residence card. You are allowed to work provided the EU national is exercising treaty rights, eg by being a worker.

[srt]

Okay, thanks EUsmileWEallsmile.

[IQU]

your wife have to excerise her eu treaty rights than your residence card will be successful.

[Brigid from Ireland]

You enter Ireland with your spouse (on the same plane).

The next day you both go to social welfare and both apply for PPS number - employers will want this. Go there immediately, because other posters have had trouble with this, and you need the pps number for both of you before the three months is up. Social welfare should not refuse to give the non-EU citizen a PPS number on the grounds that he has no right to work, because the pps number is not just for working, it is also needed for your spouse to use your tax credits if she is working and you are not.

Once you have the pps number most employers will hire you - assuming you look Irish they won't bother asking you if you have the right to work.

The next day you both go to GNIB and register and you apply for a stamp four. They will tell you what they want and then you have three months to comply.

Then you ring revenue and ask for the forms to declare your wife is self employed (assuming she may have trouble getting a job or does not want to work).

Self employment is exercising treaty rights, so once she completes the paperwork for this you get your right to work. Obviously it is even easier if she can get a job, but getting a job is not guaranteed, self employment is within your power as you just declare that you are self employed.

[jeupsy]

Just to clarify, there is no point in going to the GNIB with regards to an EUTR applications which hasn't yet been submitted to INIS ... without a letter from INIS they won't do anything.

The first step is to submit the application form and supporting documentation to INIS (the form is here: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Form%20E ... %20EU1.pdf).

Within a month and if they are satified that the critical documents have been submitted, they we reply back with a letter which can be brought to the GNIB to get a temporary 6 months Stamp 4. |To make this application you will need to prove they your wife is a student, employed, or self-employed; so you probably won't be able to do that immediatley after you arrive.

In the first 3 months after you arrive, you should be allowed to work even without a Stamp 4. But this is a bit of a grey area and the immigration officer at the airport will probably put a stamp on your passport which says you aren't. After 3 months, you must have a Stamp 4 to keep working.

[srt]

Sorry, Brigid from Ireland, but why do I need to get a PPS number on the first day? That's for getting welfare benefits, isn't it? Do I have to get one of those for some reason to apply to INIS or to GNIB for a Stamp 4? We're coming to Ireland to work; if we don't find work, I suppose we'll leave and go somewhere we can get jobs -- we don't plan to apply for welfare benefits.

So, jeupsy, what I understand is that first my wife has to exercise her treaty rights by either getting a job or somehow declaring herself self-employed. Once that's done, I can apply to INIS. I should expect them to reply within a month or so with a letter I can take to GNIB to get a Stamp 4, which I can use to prove to employers I have the right to work for six months, pending a final decision by INIS.

Thanks everyone for your advice!

[jeupsy]

So, jeupsy, what I understand is that first my wife has to exercise her treaty rights by either getting a job or somehow declaring herself self-employed. Once that's done, I can apply to INIS. I should expect them to reply within a month or so with a letter I can take to GNIB to get a Stamp 4, which I can use to prove to employers I have the right to work for six months, pending a final decision by INIS.

Thanks everyone for your advice!

Yes, your undertanding is correct With the INIS letter they will give you a temporary Stamp 4 which is an official document to prove that you are allowed to work with no restriction. Around the expiry date of the stamp 4 they will send you a decision letter (which has every chance of being positive as long as you provide the documents they require); and if your application is granted you can go back to the GNIB and they will issue a Stamp 4 EUFam valid for 5 years (from then you will officially be recognised as an EU citizen family member and Ireland will have to treat you as an EU citizen - for exemple if you enroll into a course which has different fees for EU and non EU citizens because of public fundings, you will get the EU price).

They do ask for a PPS number on the residance card application form. I am not sure whether you can leave it blank or you have to have one, but I suspect they will want one.
A PPS number isn't only for welfare benefits. It is more like a unique number used by governement offices to identify people. You will also need one to start employmenet as your employer needs it to register you with the tax office and know how much tax needs to be taken off your salary (taxes are collected at soruce by employers, but they still need input from the tax office as you might have other sources of income or tax reliefs they are not aware of).

I hope this clarifies everything!

[Brigid from Ireland]

You look for the PPS number as quickly as possible for two reasons.

1. Employers want you to have one, so it is easier to get a job if you have one. (If you don't have one you pay emergency tax at 52% - not nice). Also a lot of employers assume (wrongly) that if you have a pps you are entitled to work and if you don't have one that you should not be working.

2. The residence card application form asks for PPS - it can be sent back if you don't have one.

This can leave you in a catch 22 if you don't get the pps within three months. Your temporary stamp goes after three months, so once that happens social welfare may decide not to give pps, as they say you have no residence right.

Then you can't get the stamp because they want the pps. And you can't get the pps because they want the stamp. Catch 22.

This happened to another poster - all because he did not get the pps in the first three months. So get a pps for both spouses as a first priority.

PS - I suppose there is no chance that you have a parent or grandparent who was born on the island of Ireland? If you do you are a citizen and don't need a stamp, but would need to get an Irish passport as proof of citizenship.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

2. The residence card application form asks for PPS - it can be sent back if you don't have one.

This would be open to challenge.

[srt]

Hi everyone,

Thanks again for all your advice. May I ask you one more question?

I understand that as an American I can enter Ireland without a visa. But then it sounds like there will be a period after my British wife and I enter the country that I'll just be waiting, unemployable, as she finds a job to exercise her EU Treaty rights and then I wait for paperwork to be processed to get the right to work in Ireland.

During this period, can I work for a US-based company on a freelance basis to earn some money to live on? I'm a journalist and have an offer from a Maryland-based company (no Irish subsidiary or anything) to write for them from Dublin. They'd submit my pay to my US bank account, I imagine.

I don't want to do this if it's not legal, as I fear it would jeapordize my ability to stay in Ireland longer term. But it'd be great to be able to earn some money this way in the early weeks/months after we arrive.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You should be able to work from day one.

The Irish have been not so good about easily allowing people to do this, but they the government does actually know the rules. If you are willing to push hard, should should quickly get a work permit issued.

See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/eu-coun ... o-ireland/

http://web.archive.org/web/200707130720 ... edtoeu.htm is the old policy for working
http://www.djei.ie/labour/workpermits/marriedtoeu.htm is the official new policy (which is not legal)

[jeupsy]

You should be able to work from day one.

That is in theory, and more importantly if he is working for an Irish employer and paying taxes in Ireland.

srt, if you want to follow the rules as laid out by Ireland, you have to wait for your Stamp 4 to take employment in Ireland (but depending one who you ask in the government and when you might get different feedback). But as mentioned by Directive/2004/38/EC, this policy is illegal with regards to EU law and Ireland should actually allow you to work without a Stamp 4 for the first 3 months.
In practice:
- Some employers will ask you for the Stamp 4 and not give you a job anyway (especially for qualified or office type of jobs I think ... you can probably forget about any large company)
- If you find an employer which is willing to hire you, you are going against the Irish policy, but as it is itself illegal with regards to EU laws which take precedence, it is unlikely to cause you trouble

Now about working for a US based employer - I am pretty sure in the long run it is illegal to work for an employer based abroad and pay no taxes in Ireland while residing in the State.

Now I am not sure what the exact rules foreign journalists covering events in Ireland; but I would imagine that there is a legal maximum duration during which you can legally work here and be considered as someone coming on a business trip. Maybe you can research this a bit, but in any event I doubt doing freelance for a short period would cause you trouble.

[Brigid from Ireland]

Take the freelance work. Freelance usuallly means you are not an employee - it usually means you are self employed.

Register yourself as self employed. (This consists of phoning revenue and asking for a form - fill in the form and you are self employed). If the revenue do not object (and they won't) then you are working as a self employed person, having notified the proper authorities (revenue) that you are self employed.

[srt]

Thanks everyone.

I've been asking around about this issue of whether I can work as a freelance writer for a non-Irish company while in Ireland on a tourist visa while waiting for my EU-citizen wife to find a job and exercise her treaty rights so I can get a residence permit and the right to work in Ireland.

1. The Employment Permits Section of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation says:

"Employment Permits are only issued where a direct employer/employee
relationship exists between a non-EU national and an Irish employer. If a non-EU national, based in Ireland, wishes to work remotely with an employer outside the State, you should check with the Department of Justice and Equality and the Revenue Commissioners to see if your proposed working arrangement has any immigration or taxation implications."

2. The Department of Justice and Equality says:

"I am to inform you that your query is not appropriate to the Visa Office.
On the basis of the content of your communication, the General Immigration section of this Department may be able to assist you. Contact details for same are: General Immigration Helpline: + 353 1 616 7700 (Option 3 then 5). Immigration Helplines are open on Thursday only from 10.00 a.m. to 12.30 p.m."

3. The woman on that General Immigration Help Line says:

"There's not much we can do about how you use your computer while you're here." But that I obviously can't work for an Irish company until I have proper working papers.

Everyone was quite helpful. My take is that this isn't encouraged, but it's not illegal.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

srt,

You wife can work from the moment she arrives in Ireland, and so can you (if she is in Ireland with you).

Directive 2004/38/EC
Article 23 - Related rights
Irrespective of nationality, the family members of a Union citizen who have the right of residence or the right of permanent residence in a Member State shall be entitled to take up employment or self-employment there.

That is from a legal perspective.

For the first three months there is not any requirement on your wife. After that she either must be working, or be considered self-sufficient (and possibly have sufficient health insurance).

That is the legal thing.

On the practical side, it is easy for your wife to prove that she can work, and it is harder for you to prove that you can work. (The European Commission is apparently addressing this with Ireland, but it is unclear how long that will take).

But if you are self employed, then you will not need to prove that you have a right to work. So you should not only have no problems, but also sleep well at night.

[srt]

Hi all,

Just a couple more clarifications. If my wife loses her job, does that mean I will get kicked out of the country?

Secondly, if the only work she can find within the first three months is occasional casual work, or freelance assignments for journalism, is there any way she can register as self-employed?

It looks like she needs to have been doing this for six months, in order to be registered as self-employed. In which case, this wouldn't work because I'll have a three month tourist visa when I arrive and then I'll have to leave.

This is from the directions for Form EU1 (Application for a Resident Card):

If the EU citizen is self-employed, the following documents should be provided:
• Agreed Tax Assessment from the Revenue Commissioner for the last financial year (if applicable) OR Letter of Registration for Self-Assessment (Income Tax) from the Revenue Commissioner
• Copies of receipts issued for sales or services in the last six months
• Bank statements of the business for the last six months
• Copies of Companies Registration Office certificates (if applicable)

Thanks

[Brigid from Ireland]

If my wife loses her job, does that mean I will get kicked out of the country? No, highly unlikely.

Your wife can register as self employed. The procedure is the same for everyone. View the rules you list as things you need to do, and once you have them done you are fine.

If the EU citizen is self-employed, the following documents should be provided:
• Letter of Registration for Self-Assessment (Income Tax) from the Revenue Commissioner - This means you e-mail revenue to say your wife wishes to register as self employed, they send you paperwork, you return it and they give you the letter of Registration for Self Assessment Income Tax. Condition one satisfied.
• Copies of receipts issued for sales or services in the last six months - keep receipts for purchases, keep a file of e-mails/contracts saying you got 300 euro for selling a freelance article to a newspaper - this is your receipt for the sale of your article.
• Bank statements of the business for the last six months - This means you open two bank accounts, one for personal use and one for business use. The business one has all business transactions, eg purchase of computer and printer (expense), cost of internet access (expense) and all income eg sold three freelance stories (500 into bank account). Then do the usual income-expense = profit Then do the self employed income tax return in September/October (You may not even need to bother with a personal bank account, but don't do personal transactions (buying food...) on the business account, as it is too confusing.
• Copies of Companies Registration Office certificates (if applicable) Not applicable as you seem to be a sole trader, not a company.

If you are only in the country three months then three months bank statements are fine.

If you plan to have children you should look at maternity benefits for self employed ladies. These make self employment an attractive option for any woman who is not working as an employee if she is planning babies.

The one type of work as an employee that your wife will almost certainly get is care assistance in a nursing home for the elderly. This is hard work, poorly paid, so relatively easy to get. One/two days a week is enough to show that she is an employee.

Given that you have been in Asia there is every possibility that your wife would have EU migrant worker rights in the UK, even if she is a UK citizen, as she would be migrating from Asia to UK for work. Feel free to ask the UK about this in writing.

[John]

Given that you have been in Asia there is every possibility that your wife would have EU migrant worker rights in the UK, even if she is a UK citizen, as she would be migrating from Asia to UK for work. Feel free to ask the UK about this in writing.

Are you referring to Surinder Singh? If yes, I don't think that works as the EU Citizen needs to work in another EU country.

[srt]

Hi everyone. I just thought I'd keep you up to date. My wife (a UK citizen) and I (a US citizen) have arrived in Dublin. At the airport they gave me a one-month visa, and told me I have to register with the GNIB within that time period. I asked (very politely) why she was giving me one month instead of the maximum of three and she said, "This is the way we're doing it now." So now we're racing around, trying to get a flat to live in for that month (at least) and trying to find a job for my wife so she can exercise her EU Treaty rights before it's time for me to register. A bit hectic, but we're hopeful -- and thankful to Ireland for being flexible enough to let us in and give us a chance to make things work.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Hi everyone. I just thought I'd keep you up to date. My wife (a UK citizen) and I (a US citizen) have arrived in Dublin. At the airport they gave me a one-month visa, and told me I have to register with the GNIB within that time period. I asked (very politely) why she was giving me one month instead of the maximum of three and she said, "This is the way we're doing it now." So now we're racing around, trying to get a flat to live in for that month (at least) and trying to find a job for my wife so she can exercise her EU Treaty rights before it's time for me to register. A bit hectic, but we're hopeful -- and thankful to Ireland for being flexible enough to let us in and give us a chance to make things work.

They can give you a two day visa. That is perfectly fine. It is just an entry visa. It in no way should have any impact on what happens in the future.

The EU citizen now has an initial period of 3 months in which they can be doing anything. Work or not.

And during the whole time the non-EU citizen is legally in Ireland. Even if their initial visa was only for 2 days.

[srt]

Hi Guru,

Thanks for your post, but I don't really understand what you're saying. Sorry for being dense.

The woman at the border said I had to register within a month. Doesn't that mean that, within a month, either a) my EU spouse has to get a job (or in some other way exercise her treaty rights) and I have to file for residency, or b) I have to leave? If not, why not?

Best,
Sam

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Thanks for your post, but I don't really understand what you're saying. Sorry for being dense.

The woman at the border said I had to register within a month. Doesn't that mean that, within a month, either a) my EU spouse has to get a job (or in some other way exercise her treaty rights) and I have to file for residency, or b) I have to leave? If not, why not?

Ask away. No problem.

You do not have to do anything within the next month if you do not want to.

Article 6 - Right of residence for up to three months

1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

Article 9 - Administrative formalities for family members who are not nationals of a Member State

1. Member States shall issue a residence card to family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State, where the planned period of residence is for more than three months.

2. The deadline for submitting the residence card application may not be less than three months from the date of arrival.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

You were misinformed by the person at the airport. You have up to three months to register.

[srt]

The border guard only gave me a month to register/filed an application with INIS, and the application requires two months of pay slips proving my EU-citizen-wife's employment in Ireland. So it's no surprise that, five weeks after filing my EU1 form, I got a letter back from INIS asking for more documentation.

The letter from INIS also said my case would be decided by February 2014. It doesn't mention anything about employment during that period. Can I take this letter to GNIB and get some sort of stamp allowing me to work from now until February? Or am I supposed to remain unemployed until then?