EEA family permit where applicant already resides in the UK

[jotter]

Hi all,

I posted this originally on the General Immigration forum, but after further consideration I think this is better on this forum.

We live in the UK and we want to travel to Australia with our children for six weeks in September-October.

Our problem is that our children are (in theory) also entitled to Austrian citizenship but the Austrian authorities are making big difficulties about our application.

Current status:
My wife: Austrian passport holder. No problem there.
Me: Australian passport holder with UK permanent residence sticker. Fine there too.
Daughter (infant): Born after I was settled so British by birth. We can get her a British passport.
Son - 3 years old: (this is the problem one). Australian passport holder. Austrian citizen but the Austrian embassy is making big difficulties about issuing his new passport and we don't know if this will be sorted out in time. In theory we could naturalise him as British but this would mean giving up his Austrian citizenship for ever, so that's only a last resort.

I called the UKBA and they are telling me that if our son left the UK on his Australian passport he'd need an EEA family permit in order to re-enter.

Questions:
1. Any reason to doubt the information I got from the call centre? Obviously our son is not going to take up any employment in the UK.
2. If we do need to get an EEA family permit, does it matter where we apply from? Is it going to cause any problems if we state on the EEA family permit that his regular home address is actually in the UK?

Regarding my second question, is there anything I can read on the web that confirms the answer?

Thanks for any help.

[Jambo]

This won't be the first time the call centre gave out inaccurate/incomplete advice.

See Q1 in EEA FAQs - Common Questions - Read before posting - EEA Family Permit.

As Australian he will not have an issue boarding a flight to return to the UK. A birth certificate + your wife's passport/your passport with PR sticker would be enough to allow him to enter (he will get Code 1A stamp valid for 6 months but of course he doesn't need to leave when the stamp expire).

[jotter]

Thanks very much Jambo.

I guess my only concern here is that if we don't get the EEA family permit we leave ourselves vulnerable to ignorance on the part of either the airline or UK Border authorities. We may decide to get one just to save ourselves any potential grief. Anyway, based on your response we can make an informed decision about that.

One further question. As far as I understand, an EEA family member can apply for an EEA family permit from any location where they are currently legally staying. It doesn't have to be where they normally reside. e.g. as an Australian citizen our son could apply from Austria since he can stay there for 3 months without a visa. Do I have my facts right? Does it cause any problems if a person applies for an EEA family permit and lists their regular residence as being in the UK?

[Jambo]

I guess my only concern here is that if we don't get the EEA family permit we leave ourselves vulnerable to ignorance on the part of either the airline or UK Border authorities. We may decide to get one just to save ourselves any potential grief. Anyway, based on your response we can make an informed decision about that.

To be honest, I don't understand why you would prefer the hassle of getting to the consulate to apply for the EEA FP when it is not needed. The airline won't be bothered by an Australian travelling without a visa as he doesn't need a visa. The UKBA authorities in the airport most likely would know the rules better the guys in the consulate in Vienna. They won't deny entry to a 3 years old child especially as he has legal right to enter as a family member of EEA national.

One further question. As far as I understand, an EEA family member can apply for an EEA family permit from any location where they are currently legally staying. It doesn't have to be where they normally reside. e.g. as an Australian citizen our son could apply from Austria since he can stay there for 3 months without a visa. Do I have my facts right? Does it cause any problems if a person applies for an EEA family permit and lists their regular residence as being in the UK?

The EEA FP can be applied from any location even if the applicant is illegal there! but I would prefer spending my time with family/friend than with the inside of a British consulate.

BTW - If the consulate in London is causing difficulties. Maybe it would be easier/quicker applying for the passport from Austria?

[jotter]

BTW - If the consulate in London is causing difficulties. Maybe it would be easier/quicker applying for the passport from Austria?

That's an interesting point (if I may move slightly away from original topic). We do genuinely feel that we've been mistreated by the Austrian embassy in London. They insisted that we provide them with evidence of whether or not my wife signed for our Australian citizenship applications, without giving any basis in law as to why. It took us five weeks to get hold of the evidence proving that she didn't. And then they turned around and submitted the case to Magistrat Wien. Now, if a proof of citizenship application is processed in the embassy in London it typically takes around 3 weeks, but as soon as the case is declared 'non-standard' and handed over to Magistrat Wien, you are suddenly looking at a six month wait. It's a cruel scenario and has been most upsetting for us all but particularly my wife. Yesterday we wrote to the Austrian consul in London asking for a re-assessment of our case by a different caseworker. Waiting to hear on that one.

[dalebutt]

An EEA family permit cannot and should not be issued to an EU citizen, if your child is Austrian he does not need a FP, you can re enter with his birth cert an his mother's passport. Also an Australian can visit the UK without the need for a visa so boarding a flight and re entering the UK should not be a problem.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Australians do not require anything more than a passport to fly to the UK. You should always carry your child's birth certificate. If they are an EU citizen then they have a right of entry themselves. And if they are related to an EU citizen (child!) then they also have a full right of entry.

In case anyone questions their right of entry, it is worth being aware of http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/

[jotter]

Hi all,

I've contacted the UKBA multiple times and keep getting the answer that the kids would need an EEA family permit to re-enter the UK. I appreciate that your expert advice is that this is not required for us, but in July-August we will be travelling to Austria for some weeks, and in order to avoid hassle at the UK border and with airlines and having to argue our case every time for the next few months (we have further travel planned), I'm inclined just to go through the application process since we'll have plenty of time to do it then and it's not costing us anything. Hopefully by the time those permits expire the whole business with the kids' Austrian citizenship will be sorted out one way or the other.

I wanted to hear from anyone who has been in a situation where they've been residing in the UK, then left for a short time (weeks) but applied for an EEA FP in order to re-enter. What did you put for the questions on VAF5 (or online form) relating to the following?

3.1. Do we put our child's actual address in the UK, or do we put the address where we are staying when we are in Austria?

3.2. If we put the Austrian address, is it going to look acceptable if we say, for example, 3 days?

6.1. What would go in here? Do we put the time 'outside' the UK?

6.2. What would go in here?

7.1. What is the 'home country' in this situation? If it's Austria, do we put ourselves since we are staying with the child there?

8.8.3. If we have earlier given the Austrian address where we are staying, what goes in here?

8.10.3. We claim child benefit for the children in the UK, as we are legally entitled to do, but this looks strange if we have listed an Austrian residential address. What would go here?

9. Is it a good idea for us to spell out here our exact circumstances of why some of our previous answers look strange? Or is it better not to?

Thanks for any advice.

[Jambo]

As you can appreciate, whatever you fill in the form might sound awkward.

Sometimes it is better to play it smart than safe. I encourage you to read this post - American stuck in Rome before making any decision.

[jotter]

Thanks Jambo,

Not sure which way to turn. I can just picture having issues with some ignorant airline official and not being able to board a flight to the UK if we don't have the permit, for example. But you have a point. We'll have to hand over our son's passport for the application and we'll be in big trouble if we can't get it back.

Does anyone else have an experience to report of getting their EEA FP where they were living in the UK and left for a short time, and what you put on the form?

[Jambo]

Did you ever encounter problems with airlines as an Australian? As you don't need a visa to enter the UK, the airline is not really concerned about the immigration criteria you actually use to enter. Just showing the passport would be enough. They are not looking for a visa.

[jotter]

In all my attempts to the enter the UK I've always had either a working holidaymaker visa or an EEA residence permit (EEA2 or EEA4). I have no experience of trying to enter without some visa or permit.

[Jambo]

And do they flip through your passport to look for a visa when you check in? I would imagine they don't (and even if they do, luck of a visa should not prevent you from travel as you don't need one as a tourist).

Another thing you can do is to call the immigration office in the UK airport you will land in and talk to them. Ask them if an Australian with a birth certificate (as a child to a EEA national) travelling with his mother needs a visa.

[jotter]

Actually they often do check. When my original EEA2 was close to expiry I got a number of comments reminding me that I needed to renew it soon.

I'll try your suggestion regarding the call. Thanks for that.

Still, I would like to hear from anyone who has actually applied in this situation and what they put on their form about residence details.

[el patron]

From my own experience... To apply for an EEA Family Permit whilst in the UK, you make the application online, state the applicant's residence address as the UK address. However to allow the online application to proceed you must enter your current location as not in the UK but in the country where you want to lodge the application, i.e. Ireland, Austria, France etc, anywhere in fact other than the UK.

I've done this 4 times now through the British Embassy in Dublin for family members whilst they have been resident in the UK.

Hope this helps! You will not of course find any guidance on the 'UKBA' web-pages or via call centre staff about this method of obtaining an EEA Family Permit. Dublin turn around time is about 15 business days, you either need to give an address in Ireland for the documents to be returned to, or call again to collect them in person.

[jotter]

Thanks el Patron!

May I just press you a little further.

Can I ask you what answer you gave for these questions:
Part 3:
Your full residential address?
How long have you lived at this address?
Part 6:
Have you travelled to the UK in the last 10 years. Details?
Have you travelled outside your country of residence, excluding to the UK, in the last 10 years?
Part 7:
Full details of your parent/guardian in your home country?
Part 8:
EEA National's permanent home address?
Is the EEA National currently living in the UK?

Obviously I don't need your exact answers, but I just want to know for each question whether you answered it as though living in the UK or whether you answered it as though living outside. (or whether you left it blank. )

Finally, do you think it's a good idea in a covering letter to explain our situation? Or is that unnecessary and likely to be counter-productive.

Also, I didn't see any question that specifically asks about 'current location'. Where do I find that with reference to VAF5? Or is the online form different?

[Jambo]

Dublin turn around time is about 15 business days

It used to be a lot quicker but nowadays visa applications lodged in Dublin are sent to Liverpool for decision. So you travel from the UK to Dublin only to have your documents travel back to the UK for a decision. Funny.

[el patron]

If you live in the UK that's what you confirm residence wise anyway. Much of the form is not relevant, but it is a generic application form for visit visas and family permits.

The application is made on the basis that you are out of the UK on a visit and you want entry clearance to the UK as a returning resident and not a visitor if you see what I mean.

It can be amusing answering the 'when did you last see your eea national family member and how do you keep in touch questions? Normal answer .... err this morning and .... am we live together etc...

Cover letter should be brief, if at all, the EEA national can confirm that you all live together in the same household as a family. Passports, marriage and birth certificates are the essentials. I normally make the application on the basis that the non-eea national will be travelling with the eea Family member, but that is not essential as you can also state travelling to join the eea national in the UK.

[jotter]

Thanks el Patron,

I just did a dummy run through the online application, and it doesn't feel quite as awkward as the VAF5.

So I think I'd go with the following:
First page where it asks current location: I'll put Austria.
Part 3 asking about current residence and length of time: I'll put UK details.
Part 6: I'll answer this exactly as read (so the time we've been living in the UK I'll list under the 'trips to the UK').
Part 7: where it asks 'Is the EEA National currently in the UK?' I'll put No, since the EEA National will be in Austria at the time of the application, even though she is normally resident in the UK.
where it asks for 'Permanent Home Address', however, I'll put the UK address, but under 'Alternative address for application' I'll put the Austrian address.

Grateful if you can glance through this and let me know if you see anything that looks like a bad idea.

The biggest concern I have is probably Part 6, because it's been a year since we last left the UK, so I would have to list a stay of a year. I think I'll have to explain the Austrian situation in the covering letter, at least in brief, so that they understand why my son has no stamps in his Australian passport prior to this year.

Thanks again el Patron and Jambo.