a bit complicated PR question.

[bob123xyz]

Hi, I need some help please. The situation is:

Myself came to UK in Mar 2007 as Non-EU national on HSMP.
Got Irish citizenship in may 2010 (there is a reason how I got it).
Applied and got EEA1 in Jun 2011.
Got british citizenship in 2012.
I have been working all the time.


My wife, a Non-EU national, came to UK along with me in Mar 2007 as HSMP dependent.
In 2009 she applied and got her own Tier-1 visa.
Applied and got EEA2 in Aug 2011 and has been in UK on EEA2 since then.

In this whole 6 years, she has never been outside of country for more than six months at a stretch, except for one time which is for pregnancy-childbirth and for 10 months.

Can some one please tell me if my wife has PR under the EU rules?
i.e. does the 4 years time spent before getting the EEA2 counts and so does she already has PR?
This is complicated mainly due to me only becoming EU (Irish) in 2010.

(We are not in a situation to send the EEA4 application and try and see. But we need to prove/show that she has PR/ILR for our son's naturalisation application)

Your help much appreciated.

[Obie]

Under both Irish and British nationality law, your son qualifies for one or both of these nationalities without the need of your wife proving PR status.

She may be able to secure PR, if she is able to prove that the absence was a one off period that exceeds 6 months, and it was for childcare purpose.

[bob123xyz]

Forgot to mention, our son born outside of UK is already Irish but we are applying for British nationality. This is where the requirement is atleast one parent british and other parent settled (PR/ILR)

We are not in a position (time wise) to apply for EEA4. We want to refer to case law or some thing like that and prove it that she already has PR. <-- If this is possible in any way.

Thank you.

[Obie]

The Child is a British Citizen by descent, by virtue of you being a British Citizen, otherwise than by descent, which i suspect is the case.

The mum's PR status is another matter that could be left for another day, but in regards to British nationality law, you child is British , and you only need to apply for a British passport for him

[bob123xyz]

Thanks Obie, but my wife's PR status is where I want some help in.
Please can you let me know if you have any info on this.

(my son was born outside of UK before I got british citiznshp and so it is under section 3(1))

[Jambo]

why is it important for your son to become British now? As an Irish he enjoys almost all the rights a British citizen has in the UK.

Application under 3(1) are at discretion and there is no requirement for the other parent to hold PR although this is expected. You can also show that the parent is close to obtain PR but in any case it would be at discretion.

See also the links in Q1 in Citizenship FAQs - Common Questions - Read before posting - children

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Myself came to UK in Mar 2007 as Non-EU national on HSMP.
Got Irish citizenship in may 2010 (there is a reason how I got it).

I am curious about the Irish citizenship. How did you qualify?

As has been pointed out, your child likely has at least two and possibly three citizenships. Where is your wife from?

[bob123xyz]

Thank you for the replies.

PLEASE, the important thing here for me now is my wife's PR.(for other reasons also, along with my son's naturalisation).

Do you think Ziolkowski case or Czop case applies in my wife's situation?
Or is there anything else that would work in our favour.

Please please help.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I asked about your citizenship, because there is sometimes a difference between getting citizenship and getting proof that you were already a citizen (e.g. because of what your parents status). Depending on your answers it might have an impact on when your wife's residence, as the spouse of an EU citizen, began.

[Jambo]

Thank you for the replies.

PLEASE, the important thing here for me now is my wife's PR.(for other reasons also, along with my son's naturalisation).

Do you think Ziolkowski case or Czop case applies in my wife's situation?
Or is there anything else that would work in our favour.

Please please help.

In practice, the HO doesn't ask when you became a EEA national so if you present a EEA passport, proof of treaty rights for 5 year and proof of residence for 5 years, this would probably be unnoticed but I'm confused. If your wife doesn't want to apply for EEA4 (time wise) and as I said for your child it is at discretion any way, then why is it so important to prove her PR. It is difficult to give advice if you don't share the whole picture. Is it naturalisation as a spouse of BC she is after (without EEA4) ?

[bob123xyz]

Directive &Jambo, thank you for the replies.

I read many of your posts here and they have been always helpful.

please do not think i am rude here but please can we leave the topic of WHY i want to find this PR information. I know you are only trying to help me by asking more details and find the best solution. But some times not everyone is comfortable in discussing everything on a forum, particularly a person new to forums. Please do not mind.
In this my case I know the only option available for me under my personal and other situations, is to find a way to see if my wife has PR via Eu route. I need help find the right law or a previous court case similar to ours etc to refer to.

Homeoffice already knows that I became irish only in2010 because of our previous applications.

Thank you.

[Jambo]

Fair enough.

The HO won't know when you became Irish. They would only know that you have presented an Irish passport in 2010. This doesn't necessary mean you only became Irish then.

I'm not aware of any case law in this area. My advice would be to apply for EEA4 (which you stated she doesn't have the time to do).

[Obie]

If you became Irish Citizen in 2010, then your wife could not concievably be a person who qualify under Regulation 15(1b).

I am having extreme difficult appreciating the response from other members, that the British authority will not be aware of this.

This is not true. Firstly the OP has been under the point based system, for which he received leave to remain. Surely, it would have been clear that he was not Irish from the onset, i believe.

Except of course i am missing something.

[Jambo]

I am having extreme difficult appreciating the response from other members, that the British authority will not be aware of this.

This is not true. Firstly the OP has been under the point based system, for which he received leave to remain. Surely, it would have been clear that he was not Irish from the onset, i believe.

I disagree. I can think of several scenarios in which a Irish person was previously a PBS migrant. For example: he was adopted as a baby and only discovered in 2010 that his biological parent is Irish. Or maybe he was born in the US to a dual national (Irish/American) parent and only in 2010 realised that he is also dual national. I know of a EEA national who applied for a tier-4 visa (based on their other non EEA nationality) as they (mistakenly) thought it would bring more rights (work wise) to their partner.

You can argue it doesn't make sense to be on PBS if you are EEA national but being a PBS migrant doesn't necessary mean you are non EEA national.

I do agree with you that they will only qualify for PR in 2015.

[Obie]

The point is, the OP does not fall into any of the scenerio listed above.

Furthermore he entered as a non-National, and was subsequently successful in obtaining Irish and British nationality. How he was able to obtain Irish nationality was beyond me, given the rules on Irish nationality, but it will not be proper for me or anyone to go behind the Irish justice department grant of Irish nationality.

I can't be certain for sure, but it will appear that the Irish Department of Justice has access to Home office system, if they so wish to check.

The main point is, OP's wife is not qualified, and if she was to say she is, a naturalisation certificate issued, it could be open to withdrawal, due to lack of qualification, or for obtaining it by deceptive means, if she was aware of his lack of qualification and knowing deceived the British authority.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

please do not think i am rude here but please can we leave the topic of WHY i want to find this PR information. I know you are only trying to help me by asking more details and find the best solution. But some times not everyone is comfortable in discussing everything on a forum, particularly a person new to forums. Please do not mind.
In this my case I know the only option available for me under my personal and other situations, is to find a way to see if my wife has PR via Eu route. I need help find the right law or a previous court case similar to ours etc to refer to..

I fully appreciate the desire for privacy, and I do not think anyone was asking for any personally identifying information.

You are right that you will need to find the right law. But to do that, you need to provide enough information about history that the right laws might be able to be identified.

I suspect you were British or Irish before the dates given. The distinction between when the citizenship happened and when it was formally recognized. But you will need to give a bit more detail, either in this thread or in a private email or as a private message. Otherwise who knows if that benefits your wife.

[bob123xyz]

Thank you Obie,jambo,directive,
Just to clarify, I became Irish only in 2010.

Obie, you think Regulation 15(1b) applies in my wife's case? Any previous court cases you aware of like this?

Any other info or links please?

Can we argue that this is same as an A8 national before EU accession? Like the Ziolkowski or Czop cases?

Any one else has any suggestions please?

Thank you.

[Obie]

Obie, you think Regulation 15(1b) applies in my wife's case? Any previous court cases you aware of like this?

Any other info or links please?

Can we argue that this is same as an A8 national before EU accession? Like the Ziolkowski or Czop cases?

No, i don't think regulation 15(1b) applies to your case, as i stated before.

Ziolkowski, applies to circumstance where a citizens of a memberstate has been living in the UK lawfully within the meaning of Article 7(1) or Regulation 6, before their state joined the EU.

Irelands has been a memberstate since 1972/1973. You have only recently been an Irish citizen. It cannot be said that you lived in the UK before Ireland became a memberstate, and that you were a citizen of Ireland before Ireland became a memberstate.

[bob123xyz]

So it is reasonable to say that my wife doesn't have/qualify for a PR under EEA at this point of time.

Can any one suggest the quickest way for my wife to get a PR/ILR even under UK immigration rules and OK to pay for same day service.

Thank you very much.

[Obie]

The only circumstances in which your wife could qualify for PR before May 2015, is if she meets the criteria in Regulation 15 (1)(e). But this cannot happen as you are alive.

You cannot qualify under regulation 15(1)(c) as you have not held your union citizenship long enough.

There is absolutely no way she can conceivably qualify under the immigration rules for ILR.