Points on my license and naturalization application

[fazhaque]

Hi, I was wondering if someone could give me some advice. I recently got my ILR (10 yrs) and hoping to apply for naturalization early next year. I had 3 points and £40 fines given in the court on my driving licence for offense "LC20" which I declared in my ILR application and I also include Basic CRB check certificate ( three was no conviction) along with the application. Should i declared my offense again in naturalization application? Is is worth doing CRB check again?
Thanks for your valuable advice.

[Ayyubi72]

When was the fine given?

[Amber]

Hi, I was wondering if someone could give me some advice. I recently got my ILR (10 yrs) and hoping to apply for naturalization early next year. I had 3 points and £40 fines given in the court on my driving licence for offense "LC20" which I declared in my ILR application and I also include Basic CRB check certificate ( three was no conviction) along with the application. Should i declared my offense again in naturalization application? Is is worth doing CRB check again?
Thanks for your valuable advice.

See British Citizenship – Good Character Requirement FAQs Q3, 5 and 8

[fazhaque]

When was the fine given?

Hi the fine was given in Dec 2011.

[fazhaque]

Hi, I was wondering if someone could give me some advice. I recently got my ILR (10 yrs) and hoping to apply for naturalization early next year. I had 3 points and £40 fines given in the court on my driving licence for offense "LC20" which I declared in my ILR application and I also include Basic CRB check certificate ( three was no conviction) along with the application. Should i declared my offense again in naturalization application? Is is worth doing CRB check again?
Thanks for your valuable advice.

See British Citizenship – Good Character Requirement FAQs Q3, 5 and 8

Hi thanks for the links above but still confused should I declare my offense with or without the CRB certificate?

[Amber]

Hi, I was wondering if someone could give me some advice. I recently got my ILR (10 yrs) and hoping to apply for naturalization early next year. I had 3 points and £40 fines given in the court on my driving licence for offense "LC20" which I declared in my ILR application and I also include Basic CRB check certificate ( three was no conviction) along with the application. Should i declared my offense again in naturalization application? Is is worth doing CRB check again?
Thanks for your valuable advice.

See British Citizenship – Good Character Requirement FAQs Q3, 5 and 8

Hi thanks for the links above but still confused should I declare my offense with or without the CRB certificate?

You should declare all convictions. If you have a non-custodial conviction you will generally have to wait 3 years before applying to naturalise. However, in the link above read Q8.

[Ayyubi72]

When was the fine given?

Hi the fine was given in Dec 2011.

You have two choices

Apply in december 2014 when 3 years have passed from the date of your conviction. This is the safe option.

Apply before december 2014 but it will be at caseworkers discretion if they decide to grant your application. If caseworker decides not to exercise discretion, then you wont be able to do anything and you will loose your application fees.

In either case you must declare your conviction. If you don't declare your conviction then you will be most likely barred from applying for natualisation for next 10 years.

Now you have all the info, and in the end its your choice what you want to do.

[fazhaque]

Hi, I was wondering if someone could give me some advice. I recently got my ILR (10 yrs) and hoping to apply for naturalization early next year. I had 3 points and £40 fines given in the court on my driving licence for offense "LC20" which I declared in my ILR application and I also include Basic CRB check certificate ( three was no conviction) along with the application. Should i declared my offense again in naturalization application? Is is worth doing CRB check again?
Thanks for your valuable advice.

See British Citizenship – Good Character Requirement FAQs Q3, 5 and 8

Hi thanks for the links above but still confused should I declare my offense with or without the CRB certificate?

You should declare all convictions. If you have a non-custodial conviction you will generally have to wait 3 years before applying to naturalise. However, in the link above read Q8.

Hi Amber,
Thanks for the reply.... if the CRB check come clean (I.e no conviction), do I still have to wait 3 years? As far as i know if the CRB is clean means you don't have any conviction even you were fined in court for any driving offense? Sorry for asking again but would appreciate your thoughts.

[fazhaque]

When was the fine given?

Hi the fine was given in Dec 2011.

You have two choices

Apply in december 2014 when 3 years have passed from the date of your conviction. This is the safe option.

Apply before december 2014 but it will be at caseworkers discretion if they decide to grant your application. If caseworker decides not to exercise discretion, then you wont be able to do anything and you will loose your application fees.

In either case you must declare your conviction. If you don't declare your conviction then you will be most likely barred from applying for natualisation for next 10 years.

Now you have all the info, and in the end its your choice what you want to do.

Hi Ayyubi 72 thanks for your reply....im asking the same question I have asked to amber....if my CRB is clean doesn't it means that I have no conviction? Sorry of im asking the same questions twice...

[Amber]

See British Citizenship – Good Character Requirement FAQs Q3, 5 and 8

Hi thanks for the links above but still confused should I declare my offense with or without the CRB certificate?

You should declare all convictions. If you have a non-custodial conviction you will generally have to wait 3 years before applying to naturalise. However, in the link above read Q8.

Hi Amber,
Thanks for the reply.... if the CRB check come clean (I.e no conviction), do I still have to wait 3 years? As far as i know if the CRB is clean means you don't have any conviction even you were fined in court for any driving offense? Sorry for asking again but would appreciate your thoughts.

The CRB system is a grey area. Sometimes convictions are not shown especially if the are for motoring offences. For the purpose of ILR if the court issued FPN is not on your criminal record then it would not be a bar. However, there is no such provision in the Good Character guidance. Moreover, if your court conviction was one for recklessness (i.e. driving without a licence) then any discretion is unlikely. Were you issued an FPN by the police and challenged the FPN or did you get a summons to go to the magistrates court?

[Ayyubi72]

Clean CRB does not mean that you do not have conviction. Not all convictions are recorded on PNC (CRB). Infact most traffic convictions are not recorded in PNC (CRB)

But PNC has link to dvla computer which in turn does have your convictions recorded.

If you look at your license, it will have information about convicting court, and conviction date.

Now, you can keep repeating yourself and you will keep getting the same answers.




In the end, its your call.

[Ayyubi72]

"The CRB system is a grey area"

With all due respect, there is no grey area with CRB. Actually CRB does not hold any records of any conviction whatsoever.

All records are kept on PNC. CRB merely fetches the data from PNC, prints it on their letter head and sends it.

What goes on PNC is not just a hit and miss think. There are clear rules/guidelines/procedures that dictate what gets recorded on PNC.

Now this discussion has started, let me shed some light on some other things which immigrant community might not be aware of. PNC is not the only database which UKBA can or does search.

No one knows what their criteria is regarding who they decide to do what kind of or depths of check.

Apart from PNC, local police forces have their local databases too. UKBA can check this too if they want. This local police force database has been made easily searchable from a single search location by the new PND (police national database).

PND does hold a lot, and I mean a lot of information. It may hold information about anyone suspected of committing a crime, police road stops, household disturbance reports or callouts, anti social elements, suspected fraudsters, dodgy people in general, and a lot lot more information.

I am not saying that UKBA does all kind of check on every applicant. What I am saying is, they can find a lot more about applicants if they want to.

And I forgot to mention HMCS records. UKBA can search them too.

[fazhaque]

Hi thanks for the links above but still confused should I declare my offense with or without the CRB certificate?

You should declare all convictions. If you have a non-custodial conviction you will generally have to wait 3 years before applying to naturalise. However, in the link above read Q8.

Hi Amber,
Thanks for the reply.... if the CRB check come clean (I.e no conviction), do I still have to wait 3 years? As far as i know if the CRB is clean means you don't have any conviction even you were fined in court for any driving offense? Sorry for asking again but would appreciate your thoughts.

The CRB system is a grey area. Sometimes convictions are not shown especially if the are for motoring offences. For the purpose of ILR if the court issued FPN is not on your criminal record then it would not be a bar. However, there is no such provision in the Good Character guidance. Moreover, if your court conviction was one for recklessness (i.e. driving without a licence) then any discretion is unlikely. Were you issued an FPN by the police and challenged the FPN or did you get a summons to go to the magistrates court?

Hi Amber, I was asked to pled guilty by post or go to the court. I went to court. My exact offense was, i were driving a manual car with a automatic driving license but all my other docs were in place (i.e insurance etc). It wasn't a serious offence after all. Im hoping as my CRB is clean i will declare my conviction with the CRB certificate. im still struggling to understand though, if CRB records is clean(which i presume means no criminal conviction) how can a a driving offense be an issue? Sorry if its coming a cross as im trying to convince myself.

[Ayyubi72]

Clean CRB does not mean that you do not have conviction. Not all convictions are recorded on PNC (CRB). Infact most traffic convictions are not recorded in PNC (CRB)

But PNC has link to dvla computer which in turn does have your convictions recorded.

If you look at your license, it will have information about convicting court, and conviction date.

Now, you can keep repeating yourself and you will keep getting the same answers.





Please read the above again
In the end, its your call.

[fazhaque]

"The CRB system is a grey area"

With all due respect, there is no grey area with CRB. Actually CRB does not hold any records of any conviction whatsoever.

All records are kept on PNC. CRB merely fetches the data from PNC, prints it on their letter head and sends it.

What goes on PNC is not just a hit and miss think. There are clear rules/guidelines/procedures that dictate what gets recorded on PNC.

Now this discussion has started, let me shed some light on some other things which immigrant community might not be aware of. PNC is not the only database which UKBA can or does search.

No one knows what their criteria is regarding who they decide to do what kind of or depths of check.

Apart from PNC, local police forces have their local databases too. UKBA can check this too if they want. This local police force database has been made easily searchable from a single search location by the new PND (police national database).

PND does hold a lot, and I mean a lot of information. It may hold information about anyone suspected of committing a crime, police road stops, household disturbance reports or callouts, anti social elements, suspected fraudsters, dodgy people in general, and a lot lot more information.

I am not saying that UKBA does all kind of check on every applicant. What I am saying is, they can find a lot more about applicants if they want to.

And I forgot to mention HMCS records. UKBA can search them too.

I'm quite surprised by your comments to be honest....how can someone will know if they have a criminal conviction or not if the CRB does not hold that records? I thought a CRB check does pulls all the record from PNC ( as it explained in Disclosure Scotland website)?

[Ayyubi72]

When was the fine given?

Hi the fine was given in Dec 2011.

You have two choices

Apply in december 2014 when 3 years have passed from the date of your conviction. This is the safe option.

Apply before december 2014 but it will be at caseworkers discretion if they decide to grant your application. If caseworker decides not to exercise discretion, then you wont be able to do anything and you will loose your application fees.

In either case you must declare your conviction. If you don't declare your conviction then you will be most likely barred from applying for natualisation for next 10 years.

Now you have all the info, and in the end its your choice what you want to do.

I really wonder why people find out everything they need to and still keep repeating the question. You have asked the same thing repeatedly, and been informed of the position clearly and comprehensively, but you still insist on asking the same question.

[fazhaque]

Clean CRB does not mean that you do not have conviction. Not all convictions are recorded on PNC (CRB). Infact most traffic convictions are not recorded in PNC (CRB)

But PNC has link to dvla computer which in turn does have your convictions recorded.

If you look at your license, it will have information about convicting court, and conviction date.

Now, you can keep repeating yourself and you will keep getting the same answers.





Please read the above again
In the end, its your call.

So a conviction which incurred a criminal record and a conviction which does not incurred a criminal record are both possible grounds for refusal?

[Ayyubi72]

"The CRB system is a grey area"

With all due respect, there is no grey area with CRB. Actually CRB does not hold any records of any conviction whatsoever.

All records are kept on PNC. CRB merely fetches the data from PNC, prints it on their letter head and sends it.

What goes on PNC is not just a hit and miss think. There are clear rules/guidelines/procedures that dictate what gets recorded on PNC.

Now this discussion has started, let me shed some light on some other things which immigrant community might not be aware of. PNC is not the only database which UKBA can or does search.

No one knows what their criteria is regarding who they decide to do what kind of or depths of check.

Apart from PNC, local police forces have their local databases too. UKBA can check this too if they want. This local police force database has been made easily searchable from a single search location by the new PND (police national database).

PND does hold a lot, and I mean a lot of information. It may hold information about anyone suspected of committing a crime, police road stops, household disturbance reports or callouts, anti social elements, suspected fraudsters, dodgy people in general, and a lot lot more information.

I am not saying that UKBA does all kind of check on every applicant. What I am saying is, they can find a lot more about applicants if they want to.

And I forgot to mention HMCS records. UKBA can search them too.

I'm quite surprised by your comments to be honest....how can someone will know if they have a criminal conviction or not if the CRB does not hold that records? I thought a CRB check does pulls all the record from PNC ( as it explained in Disclosure Scotland website)?

Ok sir, then I would say there is something wrong with your brain. You yourself know you do not have a conviction, then why you keep asking the question. If you were so sure, why did you even come to the forum to ask something? If you are sure you are in clear, then why eat people's brain.

If you know the story, act on it. Why debate when you fully understand the matter?

[fazhaque]

"The CRB system is a grey area"

With all due respect, there is no grey area with CRB. Actually CRB does not hold any records of any conviction whatsoever.

All records are kept on PNC. CRB merely fetches the data from PNC, prints it on their letter head and sends it.

What goes on PNC is not just a hit and miss think. There are clear rules/guidelines/procedures that dictate what gets recorded on PNC.

Now this discussion has started, let me shed some light on some other things which immigrant community might not be aware of. PNC is not the only database which UKBA can or does search.

No one knows what their criteria is regarding who they decide to do what kind of or depths of check.

Apart from PNC, local police forces have their local databases too. UKBA can check this too if they want. This local police force database has been made easily searchable from a single search location by the new PND (police national database).

PND does hold a lot, and I mean a lot of information. It may hold information about anyone suspected of committing a crime, police road stops, household disturbance reports or callouts, anti social elements, suspected fraudsters, dodgy people in general, and a lot lot more information.

I am not saying that UKBA does all kind of check on every applicant. What I am saying is, they can find a lot more about applicants if they want to.

And I forgot to mention HMCS records. UKBA can search them too.

I'm quite surprised by your comments to be honest....how can someone will know if they have a criminal conviction or not if the CRB does not hold that records? I thought a CRB check does pulls all the record from PNC ( as it explained in Disclosure Scotland website)?

Ok sir, then I would say there is something wrong with your brain. You yourself know you do not have a conviction, then why you keep asking the question. If you were so sure, why did you even come to the forum to ask something? If you are sure you are in clear, then why eat people's brain.

If you know the story, act on it. Why debate when you fully understand the matter?

Mate,
I wasn't 100% sure hence i wanted some of you experience peoples advice...but with due respect you kind off shocked me with your comments"Actually CRB does not hold any records of any conviction whatsoever" which go against lots of topics discuss throughout this forum. BTW im not a cannibal and thanks for your advice which i will take on board!!

[fazhaque]

Guys sorry if I caused confusion but I was only wanted a experienced advice from you guys!!!

[Amber]

Ayyubi72 means that the DBS system (old CRB) is populated from the PNC (though not solely).

The grey area I was referring to is the inconsistences with the DBS system, the lack of court acquired information, the CPO discretion amongst other things. The OP should now have the information to make an informed decision as whether to wait or not.

[Ayyubi72]

Yes, CRB does not hold and never has held any data. They just provide a service.

Exactly like a travel agent does not own the airlines, but sells its tickets.

UKBA never does a CRB check. CRB check is done by organisations that do not have access to PNC. UKBA has direct access to PNC, so all they need to do is, click a few buttons on the keyboard.

CRB is now known by some new funny name.

[fazhaque]

Yes, CRB does not hold and never has held any data. They just provide a service.

Exactly like a travel agent does not own the airlines, but sells its tickets.

UKBA never does a CRB check. CRB check is done by organisations that do not have access to PNC. UKBA has direct access to PNC, so all they need to do is, click a few buttons on the keyboard.

CRB is now known by some new funny name.

Hi mate,
Thanks for the advice and clarification. Just for my record if my CRB & PNC comes clean should I presume that I do not have a criminal conviction even if I was fined in court for my driving offense? I promise this is the last time I will ask this question.....thanks for your valuable time!!

[fazhaque]

Ayyubi72 means that the DBS system (old CRB) is populated from the PNC (though not solely).

The grey area I was referring to is the inconsistences with the DBS system, the lack of court acquired information, the CPO discretion amongst other things. The OP should now have the information to make an informed decision as whether to wait or not.

Hi Amber,
Thanks for the advice...i will apply for the naturalization if my CRB (DBS) & PNC comes clean...otherwise wait till 3 years lapsed. Is that a sensible decision?

[Ayyubi72]

Yes, CRB does not hold and never has held any data. They just provide a service.

Exactly like a travel agent does not own the airlines, but sells its tickets.

UKBA never does a CRB check. CRB check is done by organisations that do not have access to PNC. UKBA has direct access to PNC, so all they need to do is, click a few buttons on the keyboard.

CRB is now known by some new funny name.

Hi mate,
Thanks for the advice and clarification. Just for my record if my CRB & PNC comes clean should I presume that I do not have a criminal conviction even if I was fined in court for my driving offense? I promise this is the last time I will ask this question.....thanks for your valuable time!!

Your CRB will come clean, that is my cast iron guarantee, but as I explained before, your conviction is kept on DVLA and HMCS computer not on PNC. Look carefully at your conterpart license, there is a conviction date and conviction court code. If you make a subject access request to DVLA, you will know that your conviction is clearly mentioned there.