Confused over PR application - EEA3

[anettes]

Hello everyone, I am French and have been in the UK since 2006. I am now pregnant and would like to avoid french bureaucracy and get a British passport for my baby when it's born. I've read the EEA application for Permanent Residence, but I am so confused and need some help.

So here's the story so far:

June 2006 - came to the UK
August 2006 - Sept 2008 study
October 2008 - October 2011 full time worker (employee)
November 2011 - date self employed

And here's where I get confused:

I know that I won't be able to apply for a PR until October 2013 because for the first two years of my residence here I can't prove that I had private health insurance which is now necessary for this process. So I have the following questions:

1) I did have state health insurance for the first year of residence from France but I was covered by the NHS as a student so I didn't renew it. If I knew I would need it I would renew it. But I have now lost the card and don't know if the authorities in France will issue a certificate to say that I did have one (I don't think they would). Would that piece of paper make any difference through?

2) For the time that I have been self employed the application asks for certified accounts. I don't have anything like this, as I don't have an accountant and I have been doing my tax returns etc myself. What happens in this case?

3) As my baby is due in February, from July to that time I may not have many projects to work on, as I will be pregnant and I will be working from home mainly. Does this matter? I will be paying my NI contributions of course but I won't be making as much as I was making before. I have other financial support though from my husband (who is also French by the way).

4) If I get the certificate in October will I be able to apply for the baby's passport in February without providing any paperwork (just with the PR certificate then?)? How will they know what I've been doing from October - February? I guess my question is, if I get the PR now is it valid for the next years or will I always have to provide documents to show that I've been treating EU rights in the UK in the meantime?

5) During the time of my pregnancy and while working as self employed, am I able to apply for statutory maternity allowance? Or does that breach the Treaty Rights? I will still be paying taxes though and NI contributions that's why I think it should be OK? Or am I not allowed to benefits etc at all?

6) If I do get the PR status now and have another baby will I need to repeat this process (I guess this question is similar to number 4!)


sorry for the long message but I have so many questions! If someone could give me some help I would really appreciate it!

thank you very much everyone!

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

In terms of proving that you have PR, you appear to have understood the rules reasonably well.

For the time that you were a student, the UK did not insist that students hold CSI, though it was in the regulations. It may be possible for you to argue that it was not an enforced requirement.

For the time you were employed, no problem, just supply P60s, etc.

For self-employed time, evidence of your economic activity. We have a sticky on this topic.

What does your husband do? If he works in the UK, your activities are not so important. Would it be easier for your husband to achieve PR? If so, baby can claim British citizenship on that basis.

Once achieved PR would only be lost if absent for more than two years. Any subsequent children born in the UK would be British (as the law currently stands).

[anettes]

thank you very much EUsmileWEallsmile.

I've read the application in so much detail, it's my bible now! But it's not clear and you can end up with so many questions...

My husband followed me from France in 2009 so he hasn't been here before that and does not have 5 years of residence, so this will have to be done through me.

For the time that you were a student, the UK did not insist that students hold CSI, though it was in the regulations. It may be possible for you to argue that it was not an enforced requirement.

I might try that actually and apply for PR sooner than October. Thanks for the tip. Just for information, and please correct me if I'm wrong, was that law enforced in 2012 or was it before that?

[anettes]

Anyone who could help with 2) and 5) please??

[sheraz7]

CSI was not enforced during the period in which you were studying which for students introduced from June 2011. Since you paid NI contribution then maternity allowance should not affect because its legally available for workers/self employeds. Moreover in self employment apart of the accountant letter the most important thing is to demonstrate economic activities which can be proved with invoices, NI payments, tax returns, business bank statements etc.

[sheraz7]

see also:
www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=137073

[anettes]

thank you very much Sheraz7.

Is the letter from the accountant necessary? I never had one, as I've been doing my taxes myself and I would like to avoid paying someone just for this.

[anettes]

the most important thing is to demonstrate economic activities which can be proved with invoices, NI payments, tax returns, business bank statements etc.

I can do that, that should be OK, it's only the letter that I can't get...

[sheraz7]

the most important thing is to demonstrate economic activities which can be proved with invoices, NI payments, tax returns, business bank statements etc.

I can do that, that should be OK, it's only the letter that I can't get...

If you have these documents and you are dealing your tax matters personally then i do not think the absence of such letter will cause much problem. But a detailed information regarding self employment for treaty rights can be found:
www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=105916

[anettes]

Great, thank you Sheraz7! thank you all so much, you've been brilliant!
I'm so happy for the CSI news and that I don't have to wait to October to apply! I will also try to provide as much detail as possible re my income and self employment and hope for the best!
thank you

[Jambo]

Great, thank you Sheraz7! thank you all so much, you've been brilliant!
I'm so happy for the CSI news and that I don't have to wait to October to apply! I will also try to provide as much detail as possible re my income and self employment and hope for the best!
thank you

Not sure what CSI news you refer to. You are not exempt from providing evidence to cover your student years. As your main concern is getting PR confirmed before the delivery is due, I would think that there is no reason not to wait until October.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

It makes sense to make the application as simple as possible. More recent evidence is often easier to come by. Spouses activities will help for any periods of unemployment provided he is exercising treaty rights.

[anettes]

It makes sense to make the application as simple as possible. More recent evidence is often easier to come by. Spouses activities will help for any periods of unemployment provided he is exercising treaty rights.

thank you EUsmileWEallsmile - if I don't make as much as I used to make before, now that I will be pregnant, as self employed - does this count as unemployment?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Without answering the question you asked, what is your spouse doing in the UK? If he is exercising treaty rights, you won't have to.

[anettes]

He is self employed and hopefully he will be able to support both of us when I won't have many projects.

Does this mean that for the time when I don't make enough as S.E. he will be able to fill in for me in the application?

However, he only started work in December '12, before that he was a student without CSI as it was never asked by the Uni.

thanks again

[anettes]

Unfortunately, I've just found the following in the European Casework Instructions, Chapter 6, page 16 http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

Note: These arrangements apply only to EEA nationals applying for
permanent residence documentation (or for exempt registration
certificates for A2 nationals) on the basis of being a student where they
have been issued with a registration certificate in that capacity before
20th June 2011.

 Where an application for permanent residence is received on the basis
that the EEA national is a student, but they have never been granted a
registration certificate, then they must show evidence that they have had
comprehensive sickness insurance for the duration of their time spent as
student

I never applied for a registration certificate, as it's not mandatory for EEA nationals and only voluntary so I never applied for it as I had the right to work in the UK (they didn't ask for it when I applied for my NI!!)

Does anyone know what happens in this case?
I thought that it's OK that I didn't have CSI for the time I was a student but this changes everything??

[anettes]

EUsmileWEallsmile, I did some research on this and I found your following reply to this post. http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ertificate

Generally, to achieve PR, one needs to have lived in the UK in accordance with the regulations for five years. For students, the requirements are to have been enrolled in a recognised place of study and to have sufficient funds plus comprehensive insurance (CSI). Absences of up to six months per year were allowed. Now, the UK did not enforce the requirement for CSI on students up to recently. After the date on which they enforced this, they stated that anyone who had applied (on EEA1) prior to the policy change would not require CSI. Those who had failed to apply would indeed require to have it.

Applying for an EEA1 was not (and is still not mandatory). It could be argued that CSI should not be required for those who were studying prior to the policy change. Equally, it could be argued that those that received it were lucky.

I am not aware of any case law that clarifies matters.

This is absolutely ridiculous! How can this process make sense to people! I never applied for registration certificate and this means that I can't apply for PR this year and I will have to wait until October 2014 because my year as a student won't be accepted as exercising EU treaty rights.

It would make sense if when I applied for my NI or to study in the university they did say that I would require EEA1 application to be filled to get the registration certificate.

I'm just so disappointed and desperate...

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Unfortunately, I've just found the following in the European Casework Instructions, Chapter 6, page 16 http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

Note: These arrangements apply only to EEA nationals applying for
permanent residence documentation (or for exempt registration
certificates for A2 nationals) on the basis of being a student where they
have been issued with a registration certificate in that capacity before
20th June 2011.

 Where an application for permanent residence is received on the basis
that the EEA national is a student, but they have never been granted a
registration certificate, then they must show evidence that they have had
comprehensive sickness insurance for the duration of their time spent as
student

I never applied for a registration certificate, as it's not mandatory for EEA nationals and only voluntary so I never applied for it as I had the right to work in the UK (they didn't ask for it when I applied for my NI!!)

Does anyone know what happens in this case?
I thought that it's OK that I didn't have CSI for the time I was a student but this changes everything??

I would agree that the policy as applied is inherently unfair. Notwithstanding the fact that it was open to the UK to insist on CSI, they could have applied a policy that those who became students after June 2011 required to have CSI.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

He is self employed and hopefully he will be able to support both of us when I won't have many projects.

Does this mean that for the time when I don't make enough as S.E. he will be able to fill in for me in the application?

However, he only started work in December '12, before that he was a student without CSI as it was never asked by the Uni.

thanks again :)

The fact that your husband is self-employed will help you going forward in the event that you are unable to continue your employment.

To be clear, you can obtain PR using a mixture of methods, your employment or your husband's (as he is also an EU national).

[anettes]

I would agree that the policy as applied is inherently unfair. Notwithstanding the fact that it was open to the UK to insist on CSI, they could have applied a policy that those who became students after June 2011 required to have CSI.

Thank you EUsmileWEallsmile for your reply.

Do we know if there are any cases where they didn't refuse an application based on this?

In my case, there is no CSI cover for less than a year, is it worth that I apply this year saying that I understand that this law was introduced in 2011 therefore I'm not required to provide this information, and hope for the best?

On another note, I've just noticed that I have a month's gap between my studies and starting work. I wasn't registered with JobCentre or a recruitment office and I was looking for a job on my own - I have a couple of emails to prove this (other action was over the phone). And I was living on my own savings, never applied for jobseeker allowance etc. Will this be OK?

[sheraz7]

As EUsmile mentioned above is correct that your partner's activities can also ease your case for acquiring PR. But this CSI requirement with regard to students is really silly because on on hand UKBA say that after 20th June, 2011 all the students need to hold CSI even including the students who never applied Registration certificate before this date. Whereas on the other hand as per EU law an EU national is not required to apply the EEA1 registration certificate and is optional. Under this sense it should be challengable/arguable because you studied before this date and you as EU national is not bound to apply Registration certificate to confirm your rights.

[Jambo]

As EUsmile mentioned above is correct that your partner's activities can also ease your case for acquiring PR. But this CSI requirement with regard to students is really silly because on on hand UKBA say that after 20th June, 2011 all the students need to hold CSI even including the students who never applied Registration certificate before this date. Whereas on the other hand as per EU law an EU national is not required to apply the EEA1 registration certificate and is optional. Under this sense it should be challengable/arguable because you studied before this date and you as EU national is not bound to apply Registration certificate to confirm your rights.

The HO view is that CSI has been required since 2006 (but not enforced). You can't claim to be exempt from it if you didn't apply as the law requires you to have one. However, if you did apply and the HO didn't say anything about CSI, then the HO can't expect you to hold something they didn't ask for (even if it is required by the regulations). That's the reason for the exemption.

[sheraz7]

Jambo, your logic is also accurate. This CSI dilemma even the caseworkers also do not know themselves as what actually it is?

[Jambo]

Jambo, your logic is also accurate. This CSI dilemma even the caseworkers also do not know themselves as what actually it is?

Not to forget that the European Commission is questioning the need for CSI in a country such as the UK (where citizens don't need to pay for state medical insurance). The CSI requirement might all change in a few years.

[sheraz7]

Yes this silly requirement is already in the eyes of authorities because a lot of even family members of EU nationals are working and paying NI contributions who with their family members must have access to NHS which already millions of people are accessing but still CSI is merely needed. And more recently EU authorities too investigating the UK unfair attitude over the welfare benefits to EU nationals and possibly the CSI might be the part of it too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22712569