Required documents to show dependency of non eea national

[jinkazama_11]

I am planning to move to Ireland but with my dependent mother.
Can I do that without getting a tourist visa for her as she have to apply one from Pakistan?
She is non EEA national but currently with me in the UK on a visitor visa?
If yes what documents I have to carry with me?

Thanks

[Brigid from Ireland]

She can apply for a visa from the UK. The case she needs to make is that she is dependent on you. I think that about 95 such visas were granted last year, but I do not know how many applied.

Dependence is difficult to show, but basically you say that although you could hire a person to care for her, there is no one at home in Pakistan to supervise the carer, and in the absence of supervision the care would be inadequate so she must have care of family member who is planning to work in Ireland.

It is also good to say that she is currently a member of your household in the UK because she needs your help and is dependent on you in the UK at present. So if she came to the UK because she is old and needed you or your wife to care for her that is good and you should say that in the application.

So four points in the application:

1. She is a member of your house in the UK at present
2. She is dependent on you or your wife for care in old age
3. There is no one suitable to provide care or to supervise a carer in her home country
4. You (or your spouse) are moving to Ireland to work/look for work

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

jinkazama_11, I have split your posts into their own thread, where they will be better served. You can rename your thread by editing it.

[jinkazama_11]

She can apply for a visa from the UK. The case she needs to make is that she is dependent on you. I think that about 95 such visas were granted last year, but I do not know how many applied.

Dependence is difficult to show, but basically you say that although you could hire a person to care for her, there is no one at home in Pakistan to supervise the carer, and in the absence of supervision the care would be inadequate so she must have care of family member who is planning to work in Ireland.

It is also good to say that she is currently a member of your household in the UK because she needs your help and is dependent on you in the UK at present. So if she came to the UK because she is old and needed you or your wife to care for her that is good and you should say that in the application.

So four points in the application:

1. She is a member of your house in the UK at present
2. She is dependent on you or your wife for care in old age
3. There is no one suitable to provide care or to supervise a carer in her home country
4. You (or your spouse) are moving to Ireland to work/look for work

Brigid from Ireland - thank you very much for detailed explanation.
EUsmileWEallsmile - Thank you for splitting the thread so that I can get better answers

I have emailed Irish visa section few days ago and got following reply. Do you think I still approach Irish embassy in London to lodge her application.

Thank you for your enquiry.

I am directed by the Minister for Justice and Equality to refer to your
correspondence of 01/07/2013.

The applicant in question will not be able to submit their application in
the Irish Embassy in London as they will only accept applications from
applicants who hold legal residency in the UK.

Kind regards,


Visa Customer Services
Visa Office, Dublin
Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service

Visa Mail
Mail-In Query

[the hurricane]

She can apply for a visa from the UK. The case she needs to make is that she is dependent on you. I think that about 95 such visas were granted last year, but I do not know how many applied.

Dependence is difficult to show, but basically you say that although you could hire a person to care for her, there is no one at home in Pakistan to supervise the carer, and in the absence of supervision the care would be inadequate so she must have care of family member who is planning to work in Ireland.

It is also good to say that she is currently a member of your household in the UK because she needs your help and is dependent on you in the UK at present. So if she came to the UK because she is old and needed you or your wife to care for her that is good and you should say that in the application.

So four points in the application:

1. She is a member of your house in the UK at present
2. She is dependent on you or your wife for care in old age
3. There is no one suitable to provide care or to supervise a carer in her home country
4. You (or your spouse) are moving to Ireland to work/look for work

Brigid from Ireland - thank you very much for detailed explanation.
EUsmileWEallsmile - Thank you for splitting the thread so that I can get better answers

I have emailed Irish visa section few days ago and got following reply. Do you think I still approach Irish embassy in London to lodge her application.

Thank you for your enquiry.

I am directed by the Minister for Justice and Equality to refer to your
correspondence of 01/07/2013.

The applicant in question will not be able to submit their application in
the Irish Embassy in London as they will only accept applications from
applicants who hold legal residency in the UK.

Kind regards,


Visa Customer Services
Visa Office, Dublin
Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service

Visa Mail
Mail-In Query

I know someone who had similar problem. He was an EU citizens and he wanted to apply for his non-Eu wife as she held a Schengen visa. Unfortunately, the Irish embassy in Germany didn't accept the application , she had to go back and apply from her home country which sucks which sucks.

[jinkazama_11]

She can apply for a visa from the UK. The case she needs to make is that she is dependent on you. I think that about 95 such visas were granted last year, but I do not know how many applied.

Dependence is difficult to show, but basically you say that although you could hire a person to care for her, there is no one at home in Pakistan to supervise the carer, and in the absence of supervision the care would be inadequate so she must have care of family member who is planning to work in Ireland.

It is also good to say that she is currently a member of your household in the UK because she needs your help and is dependent on you in the UK at present. So if she came to the UK because she is old and needed you or your wife to care for her that is good and you should say that in the application.

So four points in the application:

1. She is a member of your house in the UK at present
2. She is dependent on you or your wife for care in old age
3. There is no one suitable to provide care or to supervise a carer in her home country
4. You (or your spouse) are moving to Ireland to work/look for work

Brigid from Ireland - thank you very much for detailed explanation.
EUsmileWEallsmile - Thank you for splitting the thread so that I can get better answers

I have emailed Irish visa section few days ago and got following reply. Do you think I still approach Irish embassy in London to lodge her application.

Thank you for your enquiry.

I am directed by the Minister for Justice and Equality to refer to your
correspondence of 01/07/2013.

The applicant in question will not be able to submit their application in
the Irish Embassy in London as they will only accept applications from
applicants who hold legal residency in the UK.

Kind regards,


Visa Customer Services
Visa Office, Dublin
Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service

Visa Mail
Mail-In Query

I know someone who had similar problem. He was an EU citizens and he wanted to apply for his non-Eu wife as she held a Schengen visa. Unfortunately, the Irish embassy in Germany didn't accept the application , she had to go back and apply from her home country which sucks which sucks.

These administrative problems are pain in the back.

[Brigid from Ireland]

OK.

You can fight this or you can go for simple options that may suit your needs. The simplest option is to see if she can get a student visa for Ireland?

Otherwise you can try to get a dependent familly member visa - they want her to go back to Pakistan to apply because it is difficult to show she is dependent on you if she is in Pakistan and you are in Europe. At present you cannot appeal as no decision has been issued so one option is to apply, they will refuse because she is not in Pakistan and you appeal this on the basis that her dependence on you is so strong she cannot travel back to Pakistan. This option is too long term - she will be gone back to Pakistan as her UK visa will have expired before the appeal is heard, and then you lose the dependency case because she is managing in Pakistan without you.

By far the simplest option is for her to travel with you to Northern Ireland (as she has a UK visa she should be ok for Northern Ireland) and then to go with you to the border and ask to enter the Republic as your dependent family member. They have two options - they can refuse entry on the grounds that she is not dependent on you (that is diffficult for them, as it is difficult for them to make that decision she is not dependent on the basis of looking at her for a few minutes so they make the decision based on insufficient evidence so appeal is easier to win) or they can allow entry to Republic.

But basicallly you need to get an actual refusal so that you can appeal it. Refusal to allow her to cross into Republic of Ireland from Northern Ireland when she is standing at the border is the refusal that gives you the best chance of success. If she is not challenged at the border she goes to Dublin and asks for her visa, explaining that she could not find immigration officer on border and wants her dependent visa - again they can refuse visa in which case she willingly returns to NI and appeals, or they can grant visa, but they must make some decision, and once a decision is made you can appeal it. It is the people who are turned back at the border who win their appeals - cos they were refused entry based on insufficient evidence.

The core issue is dependency - if she is dependent she can travel with you to Ireland. So think about how to show she is dependent.

The second core issue is to get the strongest refusal you can - being turned back at the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland is the refusal that benefits you most.

Basically you want to move as fast as possible to the appeal stage of the process, so that you can win the appeal when she is still on a valid visa in the UK. So you and she present yourselves at the border as soon as possible and try to enter Ireland.

[jinkazama_11]

Brigid from Ireland - Thank you very much for providing me in depth solution.

By far the simplest option is for her to travel with you to Northern Ireland (as she has a UK visa she should be ok for Northern Ireland) and then to go with you to the border and ask to enter the Republic as your dependent family member - Sorry I may be daft, but which border crossing we should use? I am under impression that there is no border control between Ireland and NI.

If she is not challenged at the border she goes to Dublin and asks for her visa, explaining that she could not find immigration officer on border and wants her dependent visa - again they can refuse visa in which case she willingly returns to NI and appeals - They take almost 6 months to reach a decision, if refused can she appeal if she is in Ireland?
In this scenario is it possible to appeal while she is in Ireland or she have to move back to UK to appeal.

Also she got multiple entry visa to UK but her 180 days allowed stay will be up on 07/12/2013. Mean if her visa is refused while she is in Ireland and decision is made after 31/12/2013 she can stay in UK for another 180 days.

I got very short time as I have to go to pakistan to get all the required documents from there. I haven't got anyone who could send the documents over.

Thanks

[Xbox360]

Hi,

Regarding travelling Ireland with a dependent mother, I want to say that it is entirely wrong for the Irish embassy in London to advise you that your mother( of the person who asked the question) is required to have lawful residence in UK before application will be accepted by the Irish embassy in Uk for an EU family permit as a dependent relative.

There is an established ECJ case law you should read, called the Metock case which explicitly implies that your mother don't even need to have permission to stay in UK for you to make that application. Interestingly, the same case was made against Ireland.

I think you only need to prove that your mother is dependent on you now.

Please send another email to the person who replied from the embassy, stating the facts of this judgement and asking that person if the reply you received is the current position of the department, despite the judgement? or if she will speak to colleagues and give you an updated reply.


Best of luck, let us know how it goes.





[quote="jinkazama_11"]Brigid from Ireland - Thank you very much for providing me in depth solution.

[b]By far the simplest option is for her to travel with you to Northern Ireland (as she has a UK visa she should be ok for Northern Ireland) and then to go with you to the border and ask to enter the Republic as your dependent family member[/b] - Sorry I may be daft, but which border crossing we should use? I am under impression that there is no border control between Ireland and NI.

[b]If she is not challenged at the border she goes to Dublin and asks for her visa, explaining that she could not find immigration officer on border and wants her dependent visa - again they can refuse visa in which case she willingly returns to NI and appeals[/b] - They take almost 6 months to reach a decision, if refused can she appeal if she is in Ireland?
In this scenario is it possible to appeal while she is in Ireland or she have to move back to UK to appeal.

Also she got multiple entry visa to UK but her 180 days allowed stay will be up on 07/12/2013. Mean if her visa is refused while she is in Ireland and decision is made after 31/12/2013 she can stay in UK for another 180 days.

I got very short time as I have to go to pakistan to get all the required documents from there. I haven't got anyone who could send the documents over.

Thanks[/quote]

[jinkazama_11]

Hi,

Regarding travelling Ireland with a dependent mother, I want to say that it is entirely wrong for the Irish embassy in London to advise you that your mother( of the person who asked the question) is required to have lawful residence in UK before application will be accepted by the Irish embassy in Uk for an EU family permit as a dependent relative.

There is an established ECJ case law you should read, called the Metock case which explicitly implies that your mother don't even need to have permission to stay in UK for you to make that application. Interestingly, the same case was made against Ireland.

I think you only need to prove that your mother is dependent on you now.

Please send another email to the person who replied from the embassy, stating the facts of this judgement and asking that person if the reply you received is the current position of the department, despite the judgement? or if she will speak to colleagues and give you an updated reply.


Best of luck, let us know how it goes.

Brigid from Ireland - Thank you very much for providing me in depth solution.

By far the simplest option is for her to travel with you to Northern Ireland (as she has a UK visa she should be ok for Northern Ireland) and then to go with you to the border and ask to enter the Republic as your dependent family member - Sorry I may be daft, but which border crossing we should use? I am under impression that there is no border control between Ireland and NI.

If she is not challenged at the border she goes to Dublin and asks for her visa, explaining that she could not find immigration officer on border and wants her dependent visa - again they can refuse visa in which case she willingly returns to NI and appeals - They take almost 6 months to reach a decision, if refused can she appeal if she is in Ireland?
In this scenario is it possible to appeal while she is in Ireland or she have to move back to UK to appeal.

Also she got multiple entry visa to UK but her 180 days allowed stay will be up on 07/12/2013. Mean if her visa is refused while she is in Ireland and decision is made after 31/12/2013 she can stay in UK for another 180 days.

I got very short time as I have to go to pakistan to get all the required documents from there. I haven't got anyone who could send the documents over.

Thanks

The reply I received from embassy was as follows

Dear Sir

Apologies for the delay in responding.

Normally we only accept applications from people who are resident in the UK so your mother should apply through our Consulate in Karachi.

As per article 5(1)(b) of Irish Statutory Instrument Number 256 of 2006 (which gives effect to EU Directive 2004/38/EC) on Permission for permitted family members of Union citizens to enter the State, when applying for a visa we require documentary evidence from the relevant authority in the country of origin certifying that you are a dependant member of the household of an EU citizen.

Warm regards

[Brigid from Ireland]

That e-mail constitues a refusal so you could immediately appeal it.

[Xbox360]

Hi Kinkazama,

Its a big lie. The actual instrument is SI 656 of 2006 and not '256'. Also Article 5 (b) states:

(b) documentary evidence from the relevant authority in the country of origin or country from
which he or she is arriving certifying that he or she is a dependant, or a member of the
household, of the Union citizen,

source: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SI656of2 ... of2006.pdf

Thus there is no requirement for residence.
I am surprised that a public official will intentionally mislead applicants. Can you write back to them stating this provision, and why she said the former to you?

Thanks

Xbox

[jinkazama_11]

Thanks Xbox360, and Brigid from Ireland for your help.

What would be the better option Appeal or ask for further information by providing the reference Xbox360 have provided.

If I quote the link and reference Xbox360 have provided and they allow me to submit the application then Irish embassy got 6 months to make a decision. In this case my mom will be overstayer in the UK as she got just over 4 months left to stay in the UK.

Your suggestion will be appreciated.
Thanks

[Xbox360]

Hi Jinkazama,

Just another correction. Ireland will have to make a decision on your mums application within 15 days/ maximum of 1 month for EU family permit, and not 6 months (which is for EU treaty right).

Best thing for you is to talk to a solicitor. You would have a right to know the reasons for any delay beyond 1 month.

Xbox

[jinkazama_11]

Hi Jinkazama,

Just another correction. Ireland will have to make a decision on your mums application within 15 days/ maximum of 1 month for EU family permit, and not 6 months (which is for EU treaty right).

Best thing for you is to talk to a solicitor. You would have a right to know the reasons for any delay beyond 1 month.

Xbox

Sorry for asking further information.
1)- Can she apply while I am in the UK at the moment but planning to move to Ireland.
2)- How long the EU permit is valid for?
3)- she still have to extend it while we are in the Ireland (under EU treaty right)?

Thanks

[jinkazama_11]

That e-mail constitues a refusal so you could immediately appeal it.

Can you please tell me what is the procedure for appeal?
Thanks

[jinkazama_11]

Hi Kinkazama,

Its a big lie. The actual instrument is SI 656 of 2006 and not '256'. Also Article 5 (b) states:

(b) documentary evidence from the relevant authority in the country of origin or country from
which he or she is arriving certifying that he or she is a dependant, or a member of the
household, of the Union citizen,

source: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SI656of2 ... of2006.pdf

Thus there is no requirement for residence.
I am surprised that a public official will intentionally mislead applicants. Can you write back to them stating this provision, and why she said the former to you?

Thanks

Xbox

But this section of instrument SI 656 of 2006 mention following. Does this mean applicant have to be legally resident in the country before applying?

Application and transitional provisions
(2) These Regulations shall not apply to a family member unless the family member is lawfully
resident in another Member State and is -
(a) seeking to enter the State in the company of a Union citizen in respect of whom he or she
is a family member, or
(b) seeking to join a Union citizen, in respect of whom he or she is a family member, who is
lawfully present in the State.

[Xbox360]

Hi,

Sorry I am not regular at this forum, just do so when I am jobless. however I am very abreast of Eu laws and its annoying when countries implement it badly.

Read the amended part of the paragraph you quoted:

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SI%20310 ... 202008.pdf


As you can see, you qualify under 3(a)1. This ammendment came after the Metock case. However some ember states hide the truth from you , so its your duty to fish the truth and present it to them again in writing. If they still lie to you, then you can report them as it is infringing on your rights.

I can't advise you on how to apply, but whether you do it from Uk or Ireland, I don't see much difference. It may be a lot easier to prove dependency from Uk.

Good luck .

Xbox

[jinkazama_11]

Hi,

Sorry I am not regular at this forum, just do so when I am jobless. however I am very abreast of Eu laws and its annoying when countries implement it badly.

Read the amended part of the paragraph you quoted:

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SI%20310 ... 202008.pdf


As you can see, you qualify under 3(a)1. This ammendment came after the Metock case. However some ember states hide the truth from you , so its your duty to fish the truth and present it to them again in writing. If they still lie to you, then you can report them as it is infringing on your rights.

I can't advise you on how to apply, but whether you do it from Uk or Ireland, I don't see much difference. It may be a lot easier to prove dependency from Uk.

Good luck .

Xbox

Xbox
Thanks for this link. The amendment proves that there is no resident requirement for the applicant. I will write a detailed email to Ireland embassy in London and will ask them to accept my mother's application.
You got very good knowledge of EU law and I am thankful to you that you are helping me and others in this forum.

If Irish embassy in London accepts my mum's application and grants her visa, do we still have to apply to extend this visa while we are in Ireland by using form EU1?

Thanks again for your valuable information.

[Xbox360]

Hi,

Yes. Eu permit is a Multi entry permit for 6 months if you qualify. Within that time you should apply for Eu card for family member if u are exercising treaty rights and show that you will qualify to exercise it beyond 3 months( read details in Inis website

Please share your experience.

Good luck

Xbox

[jinkazama_11]

Hi,

Yes. Eu permit is a Multi entry permit for 6 months if you qualify. Within that time you should apply for Eu card for family member if u are exercising treaty rights and show that you will qualify to exercise it beyond 3 months( read details in Inis website

Please share your experience.

Good luck

Xbox

Yes I ll share my experience.

[jinkazama_11]

Update
I have emailed Irish embassy in London and provided the link xbox mentioned and requested if they can accept the application.
Basically they are saying that she can't submit her application in London. The person said that it was a typo that he mentioned wrong instrument.

I got the following reply.

Apologies for the typo.

There is also no mention of the requirement for a photograph or an application form in the statutory instrument, but they are nonetheless requirements for the visa application process. Not all requirements in relation visa application processing are set down in legislation. The requirement to apply in your home country of residence is one of the requirements that is not specified in legislation.

What is the best option?
1)- Appeal, if yes how and where to? Do I have to approach solvit?
2)- Travel to Ireland with my mom without a visa

I was trying to avoid the second option because it will be difficult to show dependency because she will be illegal in Ireland and God knows how long it will take me to find a job there.

Thanks

[Xbox360]

Hi J,

Both options are valid. If I were you, I would write again to the person stating that you want to know if that is her own impression of the Eu legislation, or is it that of the Minister for Justice. You can also state that you need this information in order to make a complaint to solvit. Reiterate that your parent is not interested in applying for a visa, but for an Eu permit which is governed by EU Law, clarified by metock judgement for which lawful residence has been omitted.

You see these guys are distorting the truth by claiming they are unaware of the truth. The response given by the officer is actually correct, but it relates to a visa application. She can claim that she thought you were referring to a visa. So you need to put the whole point across again, and ask for a yes/ no answer.


You'll be surprised of the response you'll get.


Xbox

[jinkazama_11]

Let me post the complete email response.

[jinkazama_11]

here we go. prob have to read upward to make any sense out of it.

Dear xxx

Apologies for the typo.

There is also no mention of the requirement for a photograph or an application form in the statutory instrument, but they are nonetheless requirements for the visa application process. Not all requirements in relation visa application processing are set down in legislation. The requirement to apply in your home country of residence is one of the requirements that is not specified in legislation.

I am the Visa Office Manager here in London.

Warm regards


Visa Office
Embassy of Ireland
London
________________________________________

You mentioned Irish Statutory Instrument Number 256 of 2006 in your email but the actual instrument is SI 656 of 2006.
The source is http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/SI656of2 ... of2006.pdf

According to page 4, Paragraph "Permission for Union citizens and qualifying family members to enter the State" There is no mention of legal residency of applicant.
According to this you should accept my mother's application in the London office.
I would be grateful if could look into this or discuss this with your manager and provide me some clarification.

Thanks
Xxx


On 22 July 2013 08:49, <londonvisaoffice@dfa.ie> wrote:
Dear xxx

Yes she should still apply through our Consulate in Karachi.

Warm regards



Visa Office
Embassy of Ireland
London
________________________________________
]
Sent: 19 July 2013 14:35

To: #LONDON PO Visa External Email
Subject: Re: Exercising EU treaty rights in Ireland

Hi XXX



Does she still have to apply through Irish Consulate in Karachi, Pakistan?

Thanks



David
Thank you very much for your help.

Regards


On 16 July 2013 15:43, <londonvisaoffice@dfa.ie> wrote:
Dear Naeem,

Unfortunately this not a common type of application and so there is no standard checklist of required documentation. Apologies, the advice I gave previously in relation to Permitted family members may have been incorrect. If your mother is a dependent of an EU citizen then she would be a qualifying family rather than permitted family member, and it is necessary to prove the relationship and the dependence in these types of cases, but there is no predefined list of what qualifies as sufficient evidence of dependence. Your birth certificate would prove the relationship.

Warm regards



Visa Office
Embassy of Ireland
London
________________________________________
F

To: #LONDON PO Visa External Email
Subject: Re: Exercising EU treaty rights in Ireland
Hi XXX

Thank you very much for your reply, much appreciated.
Need a little bit of clarification re the documents you mentioned.

we require documentary evidence from the relevant authority in the country of origin certifying that you are a dependant member of the household of an EU citizen - Do you mean you need a letter from local municipal office or documents such as my birth certificate, Nadra Family Registration certificate, death certificate (of my father), marriage certificate of my mother, money remittance receipts, household bills, Medical certificates.
I will be grateful if could tell me the documents which are usually required for this type of application.

Best Regards


On 16 July 2013 13:35, <londonvisaoffice@dfa.ie> wrote:
Dear

Apologies for the delay in responding.

Normally we only accept applications from people who are resident in the UK so your mother should apply through our Consulate in Karachi.

As per article 5(1)(b) of Irish Statutory Instrument Number 256 of 2006 (which gives effect to EU Directive 2004/38/EC) on Permission for permitted family members of Union citizens to enter the State, when applying for a visa we require documentary evidence from the relevant authority in the country of origin certifying that you are a dependant member of the household of an EU citizen.

Warm regards


Visa Office
Embassy of Ireland
London
________________________________________

Subject: Exercising EU treaty rights in Ireland
Dear Sir/Madam
Re: Visa for Family member (Parent) of EU national (Directive 2004/38/EC)
I am a British Citizen and planning to move to Ireland to take up employment. My wife and kids are British citizens as well. My mother (dependant) is a non EEA national.

I have got few questions regarding my mother's visa. I will be grateful if you could answer my questions.
1)- Can my mother apply for an Irish visa (Family member of EU national) in Irish high commission London. Currently she is with us in UK and holds a UK visitor visa (C Type visa).
2)- What documents she/I have to submit with the application?

I will be grateful if you could answer my queries.

Thanks