Advice regarding Singh route for dual citizen and EEA FP app

[JulietSoul]

Hi dear forum members,

I come to seek advice regarding my case. A quick recap:
I am an Israeli citizen, married to a dual British Danish citizen. In January I arrived to UK without an EEA family permit (since I was sure I would be rejected because of McCarthy and since we had just gotten married) but was allowed in with an A1 stamp. However I did not apply for RC as I was sure I would be refused. I managed to get a NINO and a bank account, as well as join the NHS.
After four months my husband found a job in Brussels and we moved. We both got local resident cards (I also have a long term Belgian visa in my passport) and my husband is genuinely employed here. However he has now found a job in the UK and we are expecting to move back in about a month.
This time I intend to apply for an EEA family permit as of course that will make things easier. I am wondering which documents I should attach to my application:
- My Israeli passport
- My husband's British passport
- My Belgian ID card (original? I am meant to carry it with me at all times while here, I am feeling a bit nervous about sending off all my official IDs).
- My husband's contract and payslips (they are in English)
- Flat rent contract (no bills in our name as we are sharing with the landlady)

Could I send some kind of registration of residency document instead of the Belgian ID card? And if so does it need to be translated into English?

I was hoping to go to the UK before my husband while he finishes work here to try and find an apartment. I realize with the family permit I cannot go before him, I can only travel with him or join him (though how would they know he is already there?). Could I possibly enter on a tourist visa, go back to Brussels and enter with my husband using the permit only then?

I am hoping we will not have any issues. Although my husband's work contract was for six months, he will only have completed four by the time we travel, and when I apply only 3.5.

I would appreciate any advice.

Thanks!

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

For the family permit, what you need to provide in particular is evidence that the British citizen worked in another member state and that you lived with them in that state. Other than that, it is the normal things like passports and marriage certificate.

You can't use the family permit unless you travel together (or EU national moves first). It would be possible to enter together on that basis and for the EU national to move back alone to tidy things up.

Alternatively, you could enter the UK alone under the immigration rules.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I am curious: which passport did your husband use in Belgium?

In any case the application should be very straight forward.

How much time would you be in the UK for before your husband fully moves to the UK? What would you want to be doing in the UK?

[JulietSoul]

Hi - I just saw your reply now.
My husband used his British passport as we were prepared for the option of moving back to the UK and using the Singh route should he find employment in the UK.
I don't think I am still intending to go to the UK before him - I got an appointment for the EEA Family Permit application only for 21.8 (although I booked it on 30.7) - seems odd that I had to wait that long. Will just be grateful to get my permit quickly so I can travel no later than 29.8. I know I can travel without the permit (as I have done before) but I want to make sure we have no issues with the documents for the RC application.

I now see that the Belgian authorities want me to surrender my residence card upon leaving in exchange for a document, would that be okay for my RC application later in the UK?

[vinny]

I now see that the Belgian authorities want me to surrender my residence card upon leaving in exchange for a document, would that be okay for my RC application later in the UK?

Make certified copies of your residence card before surrendering it.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Hi - I just saw your reply now.
My husband used his British passport as we were prepared for the option of moving back to the UK and using the Singh route should he find employment in the UK.
I don't think I am still intending to go to the UK before him - I got an appointment for the EEA Family Permit application only for 21.8 (although I booked it on 30.7) - seems odd that I had to wait that long. Will just be grateful to get my permit quickly so I can travel no later than 29.8. I know I can travel without the permit (as I have done before) but I want to make sure we have no issues with the documents for the RC application.

I now see that the Belgian authorities want me to surrender my residence card upon leaving in exchange for a document, would that be okay for my RC application later in the UK?

Do you have a link to or more details about this requirement of the Belgians? I would simply keep the card. I do not see any requirement to return it to them.

Also note that there is no requirement that you have an EEA Family Permit in order to apply for a RC. If that is the only reason you are doing it, then I would not bother.

[JulietSoul]

Regarding the Belgian residence card, here is the link to the specific page on my local commune's website:
http://www.etterbeek.irisnet.be/nos-ser ... tre-depart

I am really confused regarding the amount of documents I would need to send. The supporting documents guide mentions a birth certificate, proof of finances, proof the my husband has work in the UK and such. Are these all necessary?

I really don't know whether I should apply for the permit or travel without. The reasons I had for applying were to test the documents we had, so that we would feel more confident about the RC application. Also, in case I wanted to travel out of the country while my RC application was pending, I am not sure whether I would be able to do so with the family permit, just with a COA. I know the UKBA advises you to apply for one if you leave, but I don't think that's very easy to do if you are just going abroad for a short break.
However if I didn't apply we could make travel plans and find temporary accommodation in London, which we cannot do while we wait for the visa to arrive, especially given the fact that my husband is due to start work on 2.9 and my eea family permit application appointment is not until 21.8 (and that the application has to be sent to Paris for processing).

I really appreciate the advice!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You live relatively close to the ferry to the UK. if you want to, you might consider getting one of those cheap day-return ticket and just drive over for lunch in Kent. It is a good proof of your right to enter the UK.

[JulietSoul]

You live relatively close to the ferry to the UK. if you want to, you might consider getting one of those cheap day-return ticket and just drive over for lunch in Kent. It is a good proof of your right to enter the UK.

Hi, I don't really understand this statement. Anyhow we cannot drive as my husband does not have an international driver's license and I am not a very confident driver. Which means that if we decide to travel without the permit we have to figure out by which means of transportation. I am confused whether the Eurostar in Brussels is considered a port of entry or not, and f we want to take the bus to London we risk holding up the whole bus while we go through immigration. Flying means we can take less luggage.
This is so confusing

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I am happy to clarify anything about what I wrote. What is confusing?

If you do not drive then no problem. It was just an idea.

[JulietSoul]

Nevermind, I think I understand - you thought we should just try and go to the UK one day to test our documents.
We don't really have the time to do this at the moments.
Here is where things stand: we have booked eurostar tickets for 28.8 afternoon. Now I have to make the decision of whether to apply for the EEA family permit on 21.8 or cancel that appointment. The statistics regarding June applications, for 45 decisions, are as follows:
75% decided within 2 working days, 84% decided within 3 days, 93% within 10 days and 100% within 15 working days.
Obviously the statistics favour us, and my husband thinks I should just apply and in the worst case scenario, lose 40 pounds for the eurostar ticket.
I know I don't *have to* apply for the permit but I still feel very nervous travelling without it and also about being able to travel in and out of the country once I have made my RC application and requested my passport back.
What do you think? I assume there wouldn't be a way to cancel my EEA family permit application and ask Worldbridge for my passport back if it isn't decided in time for the trip?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Nevermind, I think I understand - you thought we should just try and go to the UK one day to test our documents.
We don't really have the time to do this at the moments.
Here is where things stand: we have booked eurostar tickets for 28.8 afternoon. Now I have to make the decision of whether to apply for the EEA family permit on 21.8 or cancel that appointment. The statistics regarding June applications, for 45 decisions, are as follows:
75% decided within 2 working days, 84% decided within 3 days, 93% within 10 days and 100% within 15 working days.
Obviously the statistics favour us, and my husband thinks I should just apply and in the worst case scenario, lose 40 pounds for the eurostar ticket.
I know I don't *have to* apply for the permit but I still feel very nervous travelling without it and also about being able to travel in and out of the country once I have made my RC application and requested my passport back.
What do you think? I assume there wouldn't be a way to cancel my EEA family permit application and ask Worldbridge for my passport back if it isn't decided in time for the trip?

Personal opinion follows.

UKBA should normally be issuing the EEA Family Permits on the day they are received. Reality is often far slower than that. Once it is in the system, it is hard to know exactly how you would request it back, and how long that would actually take. I would not expect to get it back within 7 days, even if everything was working smoothly.

If I wanted to make that train, I personally would definitely not apply for the EEA FP.

[JulietSoul]

Yes, your opinion makes a lot of sense.
I am so lucky - I decided it might make sense to keep checking in case an earlier appointment pops up, as unlikely as that seemed, and I just managed to reschedule it to 14.8!
I think I should make the application in this case as it gives me an extra week. It just means I need to gather my documents as quickly as possible.
Once again:
-My passport and previous passport
-My husband's British passport
-My husband's work contract in Belgium
-My husband's payslips
-My Belgian residence card and my husband's residence card
-A document from a Belgian bank confirming we have a joint account
-Our marriage certificate
-Letter from my husband's future employer in London
-Bank statements showing my husband's paycheck coming in every month
-Copy of rent contract in Belgium (currently only in my husband's name - should I add mine?)

Should I add anything else? Thanks again for the advice.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

-A document from a Belgian bank confirming we have a joint account
-Letter from my husband's future employer in London
-Bank statements showing my husband's paycheck coming in every month
-Copy of rent contract in Belgium (currently only in my husband's name - should I add mine?)

Not needed! I personally would never include this stuff.

Note that it does not matter what your UK husband does once he gets back to the UK. He is not required to have work or savings. (Obviously life in the UK is a lot nicer if you have work and savings, but not needed for any of your immigration related applications)

Are you both registered with the city?

[JulietSoul]

The Belgian bank account statement and the rent contract I thought would be for showing that we were living in Belgium together.
Regarding the work contract in the UK - I know it is not necessary but I thought it would support the application. I am worried about being told we didn't enclose some kind of documents.

We are both registered in Brussels and have ID cards, I intend to send them.
Since we only got married in January, do you think we should print off photos of us together? I was hoping the A1 stamp in my passport from January would help, plus all the Israeli visas in my husband's passport from when we lived in Israel together for three years...

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The Belgian bank account statement and the rent contract I thought would be for showing that we were living in Belgium together.
Regarding the work contract in the UK - I know it is not necessary but I thought it would support the application. I am worried about being told we didn't enclose some kind of documents.

We are both registered in Brussels and have ID cards, I intend to send them.
Since we only got married in January, do you think we should print off photos of us together? I was hoping the A1 stamp in my passport from January would help, plus all the Israeli visas in my husband's passport from when we lived in Israel together for three years...

I would send the minimum. I personally would not send photos. Ask them in a cover letter to contact you if they need any additional information.

You have to unfortunately assume that the person you are dealing with at UKBA may not fully understand EU free movement law and may think that UK immigration rules apply. So you include, for instance, a picture of you on the beach together. They then refuse because you have “only provided a holiday picture and not provided any evidence of the people attending your wedding”. If you had provided no photos at all, since none are required, they are less likely to go down this path.

[JulietSoul]

Thanks for that.
I think I might cancel the appointment. Just realised it clearly states that you have to have all the documents translated into English and I don't have the payslips or the official documents from the council (which state the address we both lived at) translated. Also I found a strange UKBA checklist for the EEA FP at https://www.visainfoservices.com/Conten ... EEA_FP.pdf - this states I need to submit translations and documents to prove that my husband has accommodation for me in the UK. And they might actually make me sign a version of this that states that I am aware that not attaching all of the documents could result in the application being rejected.
I think I will just take my chance on the immigration people at the eurostar terminal. Surely in the worst case scenario they will admit me with a tourist visa, which would mean I could still apply for a RC once in the UK?
Since I have already set up bank accounts, a NI number and NHS, and I am in no rush to find a concrete job, I would be okay.
I hope I am making the right decision here...

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Thanks for that.
I think I might cancel the appointment. Just realised it clearly states that you have to have all the documents translated into English and I don't have the payslips or the official documents from the council (which state the address we both lived at) translated. Also I found a strange UKBA checklist for the EEA FP at https://www.visainfoservices.com/Conten ... EEA_FP.pdf - this states I need to submit translations and documents to prove that my husband has accommodation for me in the UK. And they might actually make me sign a version of this that states that I am aware that not attaching all of the documents could result in the application being rejected.
I think I will just take my chance on the immigration people at the eurostar terminal. Surely in the worst case scenario they will admit me with a tourist visa, which would mean I could still apply for a RC once in the UK?
Since I have already set up bank accounts, a NI number and NHS, and I am in no rush to find a concrete job, I would be okay.
I hope I am making the right decision here...

Please ignore that form. It has a lot of very misleading information.

Visa fees are non refundable once your biometric data has been taken

There are no fees for an EEA Family Permit

To help the visa officer understand your personal circumstances and assess them against the requirements of
the Immigration Rules we also recommend that you submit

The application is not evaluated against the immigration rules, and thanks for the "recommendation"

Forget about the translations, unless documents are in some non-European language.

[JulietSoul]

Hey, thanks for that, but given these uncertainties and the time constraint I already cancelled the appointment. I figure that I might as well just travel without the permit than risk not travelling when I have the ticket.
Do you think I should get those documents translated for the RC application, or would those be okay in French as well?

Thanks.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I personally have never heard of a requirement to get things translated.

[JulietSoul]

I personally have never heard of a requirement to get things translated.

The EEA2 form states very clearly that for all documents not in English one must provide a "reliable" translation. What a tricky definition. Wondering whether to make professional looking translations myself for the documents in French or pay for professional translation.

I have obtained Certificates of Residence from the local commune which state since when we have lived in the commune, our national ID numbers and our address. I am inclined not to pay to certify the ID cards because that is expensive, only to include photocopies of them or not even that, given the certificate seems enough.
I am intending to translate the rent contract into English and have my landlady sign it, this way the 'original' will be in English. Guess I am going to have to pay to have the payslips translated as there are many abbreviations I don't understand.
Also not sure whether to include a printed paper from the bank in Belgium stating both our names are on the account and our address (also in French).
This is all very confusing. I wish they had provided clearer guidance.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Feel free to bother with translations, or don't bother. I would not bother.

[JulietSoul]

So here is the update on our entry to the UK through the port of Eurostar in Brussels on 28.8:
The UKBA staff at the port didn't know about SS and when I explained one lady said 'well it onky came to light recently right?'.
The man took my whole folder of documents (including every type of document to prove that we are allowed to enter on the basis of Singh without a family permit and at the Eurostar port) to his boss who claimed because my husband is British we should have applied for a family permit. Because my husband also has a Danish passport he was able to convince him to still give me the code 1a stamp, obviously they don't understand McCarrthy. So ridiculous. I had all the regulations printed out but they still wouldn't admit I was right. Also I was made to fill out a landing card, which is not meant to happen, and the man wrote down details from my husband's Danish passport on it.
I have to say, although the whole thing took only 20 minutes, it was a very unpleasant experience and I still can't believe they don't know the rules over there. Once again we get in on the basis of my husband's Danish passport, which is the wrong reason!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Welcome to the UK. Feel free to complain to UKBA.

[Amber]

Hello all,
I am preparing my application for the EEA2, as you may recall my husband worked in Belgium for four months and I was there with him.
While filling out the form I realised that as he was employed and paid before he started his local residence card application, his work place organised for him to have a 'bad quality' national registration number, which is listed on all of his payslips.
This number does not match the number on his residence certificate (the official number he got after applying for residence).
I am now unsure which number to list on the Surinder Singh page of the application and whether I should add a letter from his employer clarifying this.
Do you think the UKBA could refuse us because of this fact, even though we have all proof, including a letter from the employer, payslips, contract, rent contract etc?

Thanks!