An American Seeking Dual Citizenship

[CalBeth]

I am an American with a dream to obtain dual citizenship with a country that my ancestors came from. I have no desire to forfeit my citizenship with America, it's more of a dream to offer my children more opportunity than I had.

I have been doing research, trying to find someone in the same boat as I, but have yet to have any luck.

My goal is to obtain a British citizenship, since both my husband and I have ancestors originating from there. (Of course the generation is not close enough to be 'grandfathered' in.) Our plan is to get our visa, relocate in about 3 years and start the process of naturalization.

I haven't contacted any sort of government immigration support, yet. I am a student studying to become a Nurse Midwife. My husband is studying business, already having a Theater Degree.

I'm already stuck on deciding what Tier I need for a visa. We have no plan or set time that we would ever move back to the US, but you never know with life.

Which brings me to one question (Of many),

When I obtain the citizenship, say after living there for 20+ years, something important and/or tragic happens with my family back home, if I were to move back to the states after that time, would I lose the citizenship I obtained? Or would I be able to move back to the UK after all is said and done?

Any and all information is appreciated! Would love to chat with any one who is going thru/ has gone thru this process!

[secret.simon]

John Maynard Keynes said that in the long term, we are all dead.

20 years is too long a time span to ask a question about with regards to immigration or citizenship, especially given that rules tend to change broadly every year (on 6th April) if not more often.

Currently, as things stand, once you are a British citizen, you are British for life and can return as and when you like. Many British citizens have settled in Spain and Australia, for instance.

However, to get to citizenship, you will likely have to spend between 6 to 11 years on various visas, which may have varying degrees of stringency with regards to absences.

Do either your husband or you have a grandparent born in the UK (remember that Ireland was a part of the UK before 1922)? You would be eligible for an Ancestry visa.

If not, the only long term visa that would lead you to citizenship would be a Tier 2 visa.

You may also want to look at whether your husband or you are eligible for the citizenship of another EEA country. Germany, Poland and Spain are some of the countries which look at the ancestry of the person in addition to where they were born. If you qualify for an EEA passport, you can come and settle in the UK and get British citizenship after 6 years of exercising EU treaty rights.

[CalBeth]

Well, That is great news. Takes the worry out of planning for future moves.

I had read on the Gov.co.uk site, I would have to live there for 5 years before I am able to apply. I had figured it would be at least a 10 year process.

No, neither of us have a close ancestor to be grandfathered in (The last of our ancestors came in after the civil war. 1880's or so. To us, its about 3 generations back.). We both have strong roots in Ireland, Germany, and England. We both just feel like England is more central when it comes to opportunity.

Another question.

We aren't planning for kids (In the near future), but if it happens, it happens. I assume if they're born before we become citizens, they too would have to apply for citizenship. If our kids are born after we become citizens- do they still need to apply for citizenship, or would they be automatic citizens? (I'm 25, my husband is 33. It's not a pressing issue, but one I would like to know about.)

[secret.simon]

Germany has stronger jus sanguinis (citizenship by descent) laws than the UK has. The US is of course the exemplar of jus soli (citizenship by place of birth). If you have German descent as recent as three generations away, you may want to explore the German option in more detail. Remember that you can settle in the UK on a German passport.

My calculations have worked on the assumption that you would apply via either the work visa route (at least five years of a work or Ancestry visa and one year on Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR) - the British equivalent of a US Green Card) or via the long residency route (any mixture of legal residency for 10 years, followed by 1 year of ILR).

As to children, assuming that neither of you are not British citizens at the time, their UK citizenship will depend on where they are born.

If they are born in the UK, they are entitled to be registered as British citizens when either of you get ILR.

If they are born overseas, they can be registered at the discretion of the Secretary of State for the Home Department. Generally, one of the parents is expected to be a British citizen and the other at least on ILR if not also a British citizen.

If either parent is already British (otherwise than by descent-which both your husband and you will be if you naturalise) at the time of birth of a child, the child will be British wherever in the world they are born. But if they are born outside the UK, they will not be able to pass on their citizenship to their children.

I did not mean to dissuade you from planning. Indeed, much the contrary. I think Europe generally is more disciplined than most other places and it makes it easy for you if you plan things through. Be prepared to keep checking government websites and forums and other sources of information once every month, just to avoid being caught out by a surprise change of the rules (they are invariably announced in advance).

As an aside, on a trip to Paris recently, I met a group of Americans who could not believe how much planning needs to go into traveling around Europe (ticket prices vary depending on days of travel, museums and other attractions close on different days, etc).

[CalBeth]

All of this information is great.

I'm not sure who might be able to answer this.

When it comes to Taxes, I know I would automatically start paying taxes in Britain when I begin living there. Does anyone know if I still have to pay taxes in the US, even though I wont be physically living there?

[secret.simon]

The US charges income tax on worldwide earnings. So your husband and you will be liable for US taxes. However, the US and the UK have a double taxation treaty, which means that the tax paid by you in the UK will be counted towards the tax you owe in the US.

I am not sure whether that applies to state and county/city income taxes, though.

I have an American work colleague, who lives and works in the UK, but is a US citizen. He explained to me how he has to file tax returns in the US periodically and it is complicated because the tax years are different in the two countries (6th April to 5th April in the UK, July to June in the US, I believe).

[CalBeth]

Luckily I have always been a big planner.

We have one dog, and I have already checked on what the requirements are when bringing a pet. I've gone through and learned a lot of the UK government sites, transportation sites, and even what sort of grocer/pet care is available. I have no doubt that is experience will be very overwhelming but with some planning it should go relatively smooth. I'm excited.

We are planning a vacation/holiday to England for next summer. Get a feel of the areas and what kind of jobs are available. Figure out what housing we would be able to afford. We have a fund for this move that we started a few months ago. As students, we know it will be a while before we can really afford it, so we're giving it 3 years for savings.

Thank you for all of the information. When I have more questions, I'll come back and post!

[noajthan]

...

We are planning a vacation/holiday to England for next summer. Get a feel of the areas and what kind of jobs are available. Figure out what housing we would be able to afford. We have a fund for this move that we started a few months ago. As students, we know it will be a while before we can really afford it, so we're giving it 3 years for savings.

Thank you for all of the information. When I have more questions, I'll come back and post!

Good idea.

This may give an idea of what to expect:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... erway.html
& also:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -Rico.html

We use our world famous English humour to cope with survey results like these.

If you intend to practice as a midwife in UK this may be a good starting point:
http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by ... a-midwife/
Good luck.

[sagareva]

keep in mind the US may treat your citizenship as forfeited if you naturalise in a foreign country as an adult, even more so without a compelling reason,

and you have to go to lengths to keep explaining to them for the rest of your life that this wasn't what you meant, at least every time you apply for a passport

just saying

most Americans I know here aren't applying for UK citizenship for that reason -- and those they do usually have a british spouse which is easier to explain

if you had some sort of entitlement to registration, eg through ancestry, that would be a different matter

[Wanderer]

Also Ancestry visa isn't open to Americans, only Commonwealth citizens.

Your biggest hurdle is getting a Work Permit (Tier 2) most posts require a resident labour market test (i.e. local and EU applicants take priority) and the company has to be registered sponsor so it's not a trivial process.

And when you do visit, be careful what you carry in your bags, I've seen visitors bounced at immigration control for carrying papers that pertain to house-hunting, job applications etc, making the IO doubt they are genuine visitors. You don't want a black X in your passport to bugger things up.

[caffeine]

Germany has stronger jus sanguinis (citizenship by descent) laws than the UK has. The US is of course the exemplar of jus soli (citizenship by place of birth). If you have German descent as recent as three generations away, you may want to explore the German option in more detail. Remember that you can settle in the UK on a German passport.

This is true but Germany doesn't allow dual citizenship as far as I know.

[Hubba]

Germany has stronger jus sanguinis (citizenship by descent) laws than the UK has. The US is of course the exemplar of jus soli (citizenship by place of birth). If you have German descent as recent as three generations away, you may want to explore the German option in more detail. Remember that you can settle in the UK on a German passport.

This is true but Germany doesn't allow dual citizenship as far as I know.

If acquired on birth, it does. If the citizenship is originated from ancestry, this would be classed as acquired on birth (the citizenship process is for the recognition of such citizenship, not for the grant of it).

[ouflak1]

keep in mind the US may treat your citizenship as forfeited if you naturalise in a foreign country as an adult, even more so without a compelling reason,

This is completely wrong. You can only your American citizenship if you explicitly state that you acquired foreign citizenship with the specific intention of relinquishing your American. And even then you must state that intention in front of a U.S. Consular. Otherwise, the only way is to renounce formally in front of a U.S. Consular.

and you have to go to lengths to keep explaining to them for the rest of your life that this wasn't what you meant, at least every time you apply for a passport

Preposterous. I have been asked exactly once on a form, when I got my passport. I answered 'No' and that was the end of the matter.
No evidence, no other questions, no 'great lengths'. And no other Americans I know who are dual citizens have had any experiences any different from mine in this regards. Indeed, if history and legal precedent are any guide, it is very difficult to lose citizenship. Even attempting to renounce can be refused.

just saying

I reccommend that you should really only say things that are truthful and helpful.

[CalBeth]

I can't tell you how much I appreciate this Information.

I knew I would be asked by the US government, at least once, whether or not I would relinquish my citizenship. A lot of different Expats in Europe and South America have told me that the US doesn't hound them about it. They receive a letter directly after the citizenship has gone through, then asked again when they apply for a new passport.

From my prospective, the US neither has laws stating you can't have dual citizenship, or laws stating you can. It's kind of a grey area.

I really wish I could acquire citizenship by Ancestry, but it's just not possible for us. Both my husband and I are at least a generation to far from being accepted that route.

I did not know it would be that difficult to find a job. (Having to be sponsored, or a letter of recommendation)I just figured if I applied for the Tier 2 Visa, that I could look and apply for work when I got there.

The plan my husband and I decided on, was to save enough money to be able to cover expenses of moving, and a few months of rent/food/transportation- before really settling into a job. Give us enough time to look for a job, adjust to the new life and not have to stress about it.

From the way I understand it now, I have to have a job and/or job lined up when applying for Tier 2?

If it is, it will be difficult but I think manageable. Might take extra time.

[Richard8655]

It is somewhat grey. But according to the U.S. State Department, there is risk of U.S. citizenship loss if acquiring foreign citizenship is actively sought (not automatic as by marriage or birth) and if there is intention to give it up. That last part is probably the life saver in such planning.

"A U.S. national may acquire foreign nationality by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. national may not lose the nationality of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one nationality or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another nationality does not risk losing U.S. nationality. However, a person who acquires a foreign nationality by applying for it may lose U.S. nationality. In order to lose U.S. nationality, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign nationality voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. nationality."

[Casa]

You may find this link to Tier 2 overview, in particular read through the conditions on a dependent joining the applicant. Bear in mind it's an expensive process, especially now that the new NHS Surcharge has been introduced.
https://www.gov.uk/tier-2-general/overview

[Wanderer]

I really wish I could acquire citizenship by Ancestry, but it's just not possible for us. Both my husband and I are at least a generation to far from being accepted that route.

You couldn't anyway, if you mean ancestry visa - it's only open to Commonwealth Citizens.

How about Irish grandparents? Anything there?

[Wanderer]

I did not know it would be that difficult to find a job. (Having to be sponsored, or a letter of recommendation)I just figured if I applied for the Tier 2 Visa, that I could look and apply for work when I got there.

The plan my husband and I decided on, was to save enough money to be able to cover expenses of moving, and a few months of rent/food/transportation- before really settling into a job. Give us enough time to look for a job, adjust to the new life and not have to stress about it.

From the way I understand it now, I have to have a job and/or job lined up when applying for Tier 2?

If it is, it will be difficult but I think manageable. Might take extra time.

For Tier 2 you need to be highly skilled or be a specialist in a shortage area, there is a list published every so often by the UK Gov., here's the current one.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... l_2015.pdf

If your type of work is not on the list the prospective employer would have to give preference to local and EU candidates, advertise the role properly.

Tier 2 is very similar to the US's H1-B visa, you are tied to the employer and the employer has to have a sponsors licence.

TBH, this isn't going to be easy....

[CalBeth]

I understand that the government website says you must be highly skilled or be in a career that has short comings in England. That makes it sound very daunting- but I am pretty sure if the company you work for has a base in England, it would be easier to be granted a job there. (Wouldn't exactly work for me in the midwifery field**, but my husband may get some use out of it.) I think if I were desperate enough, I could always apply for a student visa, go back to University, and get another degree.

I'm not coming into this process thinking it will be easy.


**Of course in America, the route I am taking for Midwifery training, I have to have my Degree in Nursing. From there I work with doctors in the hospital studying Obstetrics. There is a chance I could have to knowledge/experience to work in the Neonatal Intensive Care Units. So there is a little hope there.

And, no. My Ancestors from Ireland came over in the 1880's (My great-grandparent's, great grandparents.). The only country I can be 'grandfathered in', is Mexico. (But that's not exactly going to help me get to Europe, haha)

[secret.simon]

The only country I can be 'grandfathered in', is Mexico. (But that's not exactly going to help me get to Europe, haha)

You could be wrong in your assumption. Spanish nationality law appears to have an expedited system of granting citizenship to citizens by descent or birth of IberoAmerica. If you can claim Mexican citizenship by descent, you could move to Spain for two years and gain Spanish citizenship.

Wikipedia has a good overview of the requirements for citizenship of various countries in the EU.

The southern coast of Spain and the area around Gibraltar is home to one of the largest expatriate British communities in the world. Some seem to treat it as a sunny extension of the UK while others have been engaged in politics at a local level. So, while undeniably there will be a culture shock, it may not be as severe as you may imagine.

And after getting Spanish citizenship, assuming that the UK remains a part of the EU, you can move to the UK.

[noajthan]

The only country I can be 'grandfathered in', is Mexico. (But that's not exactly going to help me get to Europe, haha)

You could be wrong in your assumption. Spanish nationality law appears to have an expedited system of granting citizenship to citizens by descent or birth of IberoAmerica. If you can claim Mexican citizenship by descent, you could move to Spain for two years and gain Spanish citizenship.

...

And after getting Spanish citizenship, assuming that the UK remains a part of the EU, you can move to the UK.

Good catch!
This is the kind of innovative 'out of the box' thinking that makes this forum what it is - pure gold.

[secret.simon]

Good catch!
This is the kind of innovative 'out of the box' thinking that makes this forum what it is - pure gold.

Thanks for the compliment.

I do not know anything about Mexican or Spanish law other than what is on Wikipedia, so hardly worthy of praise. <<blushing with embarassment>>

Am I correct in guessing that the first sentence is a cricketing allusion? This is the first time I have come across them on this forum.

[noajthan]

Good catch!
This is the kind of innovative 'out of the box' thinking that makes this forum what it is - pure gold.

...

Am I correct in guessing that the first sentence is a cricketing allusion? This is the first time I have come across them on this forum.

Um, I mean it in terms of "well spotted" as well as "you're onto something there" .

I'm not a cricket fan myself, I suppose the phrase could come from cricket - or maybe baseball.
(I work in troubleshooting and diagnosing obscure problems; we use the term in that context, especially when a non-obvious solution suddenly presents itself).

Hopefully it's a way ahead for the poster to explore anyway.

[Casa]

In case this is giving anyone sleepless nights....
"The 'box', with its implication of rigidity and squareness, symbolises constrained and unimaginative thinking."