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Retaining Right of Residence

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

Moderators: Casa, archigabe, CR001, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha

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Ishjon
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Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:09 pm

Retaining Right of Residence

Post by Ishjon » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:53 pm

Dear members,
I have a question on behalf of my friend about ror. She has divorced with her husband after 4 years of marriage. Marriage took place in her country (not UK/EU) and thei have lived in the UK almost 4 years. They have divorced in the country where their marriage took place and she filed the divorce and she was in her country when decree absolute was issued. Now i have read that in order for her to retain her right of residence she must be present in the UK, hence she was in her country on holiday while divorce finalised does this mean that she can not retain her right of residence? I will be greatful if anyone sheds some light into this issue.

Thanks alot

Obie
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Location: UK/Ireland
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Re: Retaining Right of Residence

Post by Obie » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:59 pm

Unfortunately retention of residence may not be possible on the circumstances you mentioned .
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Ishjon
Junior Member
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:09 pm

Re: Retaining Right of Residence

Post by Ishjon » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:14 pm

Thanks Obie,
So in thats case she doesn't have any right for retention. But I don't understand how you can divorce the marriage without going to the country that the marriage rook place. And she have baby born in the UK who's British national. Does this mean she has to leave UK if she can not retain right of residence?

Obie
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Location: UK/Ireland
Ireland

Re: Retaining Right of Residence

Post by Obie » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:16 pm

All depends on the circumstances of the case.

The status of the EEA national prior to the divorce and many other factors.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Ishjon
Junior Member
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:09 pm

Re: Retaining Right of Residence

Post by Ishjon » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:38 pm

Era national is PR holder and in employment as well as non eea worker on maternity at the moment. What's the procedure for people divorcing abroad do you know? Do they have to apply for divorce and straight fly back to the UK? What about attending the court? Thanks for your replies

Wise
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Re: Retaining Right of Residence

Post by Wise » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:39 am

Technically you both live here you be able to divorce in UK in respective of where you get married. Also HO decision may favour you because of the child involved and his/her nationality.

How many year left with your RC. The good news is your ex has got the PR and the baby has nationally all this may say any scrutiny on your application as I have never heard anyone divorce outside EU and present it for ROR and win, but if you you divorce within the EU you may also be fine.

Good luck
It is really good to help and everyone deserve to be respected in life. Good luck.

Obie
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Re: Retaining Right of Residence

Post by Obie » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:41 pm

Ishjon wrote:Era national is PR holder and in employment as well as non eea worker on maternity at the moment. What's the procedure for people divorcing abroad do you know? Do they have to apply for divorce and straight fly back to the UK? What about attending the court? Thanks for your replies
Who is the father of the Non EEA and why can't proceedings be initiated in the UK.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Ishjon
Junior Member
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:09 pm

Re: Retaining Right of Residence

Post by Ishjon » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:29 pm

Fathet of the non eea child is eea national and the child is british citizen, proceding could have been initiated in the UK but divorce is already finalised abroad and decree absolute been issued. Does she have to divorce in the UK as well?

Obie
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Re: Retaining Right of Residence

Post by Obie » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:32 pm

Not going to be an easy one, but it is worth a fight.

The caselaw does not assist much, but I can see more than 1 route under regulation 10 (5) or 15A by which retention of residence or a derivative right of residence may be obtained.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Ishjon
Junior Member
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:09 pm

Re: Retaining Right of Residence

Post by Ishjon » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:21 am

Hi Obie/ Wise and anyone with knowledge on this issue.
Below is the reply from europe advice regarding friends situation, i have advised her that retention is not possible however reply from European help states otherwise can you please read and comment if thats correct.


Dear Madam:

Thank you for getting in touch with Your Europe Advice.

Your question relates to the retention of the right of residence under EU law (under Directive 2004/38), in circumstances where you are a third country citizen and where your ex-spouse is an EU citizen. You married in 2010, and divorced in the summer of 2015.

You further indicate that you have had a child from this marriage, and that your child is a UK citizen owing to the fact that your ex-husband had permanent residence in the UK at the time that your child was born in the UK.

Accordingly, it appears that the divorce was pronounced at a time when your spouse was a permanent resident in the UK. The divorce has produced an agreement with your ex-spouse according to which you have custody of your child.

You wonder whether you may qualify for the retention of your right of residence in the UK, under Article 13 Directive 2004/38?

The short answer to your query is that you appear to have retained the right of residence in the UK by virtue of Directive 2004/38.

However, you have also been advised that you may not qualify for the retention of your right of residence, given that you were not physically present in the UK at the time of the divorce.

Before answering your query, let us examine what the relevant provision lays down (article 13 Directive 2004/38):

Article 13 provides that you retain the right of residence, where the marriage is dissolved where you can establish the following conditions:

i) "By agreement between the spouses or the partners referred to in point 2(b) of Article 2 or by court order, the spouse or partner who is not a national of a Member State has custody of the Union citizen's children"

It appears that you are able to satisfy the above cited condition, given that you have custody of your child by express agreement with your ex-spouse.

ii) There is another condition however.

The UK has consistently insisted that in order for you to retain your right of residence in the UK, you must also prove that at the time of the divorce decree absolute, both you and your ex-husband must prove that you were exercising your rights of residence in the UK. In support of this, the UK points to the last paragraph of Article 13 paragraph 2 read in conjunction with Article 14 paragraph 2 Directive 2004/38.

Again, in your case, it appears that both you and your ex-husband are able to prove this condition.

You are a worker in the UK. You indicate that you were on maternity leave at the time that your divorce was pronounced. As far as your spouse is concerned, you mentioned that he is a permanent resident in the UK. This is proven by the fact for example, that your child was issued with a UK passport. You also mention that your ex-husband is a worker and that he was working at the time your divorce was pronounced.

Accordingly, we reiterate that it looks like you are able to prove that both you and your ex-spouse were exercising your respective rights of residence in the UK at the time of the divorce decree absolute being handed down.

Thus, it appears that you are able to prove that you have retained your right of residence, following your divorce from your ex-spouse.

iii) The question that you ask in your post has actually been asked by the Court of Appeal to the Court of Justice NA (PAKISTAN) - and - The Secretary of State for the Home Department - and - The Aire Centre, namely whether it is a requirement under Article 13 that the EU citizen must be physically present in the UK at the precise time when the divorce decree is pronounced.

The referral will take time to be heard, with potentially another 12 months before we get a final Judgment from the Court of Justice.

Having said that, we must also disagree with the strand of opinion which interprets Article 13 to prescribe that the EU citizen or the family member must be physically present in the UK at the precise time when the divorce decree is pronounced:

The simple reason for this is that nothing in the wording of the provision can allow such an interpretation. There is nothing under Article 13 which states that the EU citizen must be physically present in the host member state at the time of the divorce decree.

We must also point to the recent case Kuldip Singh,Denzel Njume, Khaled Aly v Minister for Justice and Equality, case C 218/14;

In the above case, the Court of Justice held:

Provided the divorce decree is brought whilst the EU citizen is resident in the Host Member State, the right of residence is retained subject to meeting the conditions under the 2nd paragraph of Article 13.

Nowhere did the Court of Justice prescribe that the EU citizen must be physically present in the host member state.

Accordingly, the retention of the right of residence requires the applicant to prove the exercise of rights of residence by the EU Sponsor in the Host Member State.

However, the key moment to assess whether the conditions under the second paragraph of Article 13 are met is when the divorce process is initiated, NOT when the marriage is dissolved.

Article 13 paragraph 2 (a) in turn is transposed under UK law in the form of Regulation 10 (5) of the EEA Regulations 2006;(http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006 ... on/10/made).

Obie
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Re: Retaining Right of Residence

Post by Obie » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:30 pm

Well I advised based on my knowledge of the law and what the court said in the case of Singh .
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Ishjon
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Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:09 pm

Re: Retaining Right of Residence

Post by Ishjon » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:09 am

Hi Obie, yes I do understand and thanks for your advice therefore before comenting any further to her i wanted to check with you guys what you think about the advice given by your europe, is it realistic or is it too optimistic? I.e can she proceed with this or is it safer to apply again for divorce in the UK? Or someone else advised to apply as a separated family member without stating the divorce overseas. Your advice is really appreciated.

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