EU citizen in the UK - asking for residence card?

[L_aventurier]

So I'm a French citizen living in the UK. I have been there for 10 years.

Like many people i guess, I'm worried at the prospect of a brexit next month.

So far, I haven't asked for anything in terms of residence card, uk nationality, etc. I didn't even know those options existed.

What is the current recommendation for people in my situation?

I'm told that asking for nationality can take up to a year (especially for self employed / contractor) and a residence card a couple of months.

background:

i worked from 2006 to 2011 and still got 3 p60 ad 1 p45 from that time, covering most of it.
then i started a business and didn't pay myself for 2 years.
then i have 2 p60 and 1 p45 from my company from 2013 to now.

In the last 10 months, I did a typical IT contracting/programming job; contract ended last month.

I never left the UK for more than 3 weeks.

What's the 'community knowledge/recommendation' for this kind of common situations? "ask for a residence card" ? "ask for a permanent residence card" ? "go full nationality"? "just wait for the referendum result?

Thanks in advance!

[Casa]

You are unable to apply for British citizenship until you have been issued with confirmation of PR.

[LilyLalilu]

It depends what you want and how much money you are willing to spend.
First of all, I'd recommend applying for a Document Certifying Permanent Residence which costs £65 and confirms your status in the UK.
When you apply, you best use a 5-year period of exercising treaty rights which ended at least one year ago, for example the period from 2006 to 2011 you mentioned. This way, you could shoot straight for citizenship after you receive the document if you are willing to spend £1300+.
The DCPR provides some protection but as no one knows for sure what would happen after a potential Brexit, citizenship is certainly the safest option. I personally believe that anyone with a DCPR, PR status or a steady job/income would be fine as well, but only citizenship provides 100% protection against deportation etc.

More info below

PR: http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 14867.html

Citizenship: http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... 95747.html

[L_aventurier]

Thanks!

Ok, so it sounds like PR then citizenship is the way to go.
Happy to spend some money, do the tests, etc.
It may take a year but it looks like that's the way it is...

However, on the government *permanent* residence page, they say the following:
"You’re eligible if both:
-you’ve lived with your European Economic Area (EEA) family member in the UK for a continuous 5 year period
-your EEA family member has been a ‘qualified person’ throughout the 5 years or has a permanent right of residence"
https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-a-uk-resid ... dence-card

what does that mean? I have no EEA family member, I'm single. can i ask for permanent residence anyway?

thanks for the help !

PS: for the permanent residency, that's the 100-page form, no way around that?

(also, no children, no prison, no benefit, nothing)

Gosh I hate myself for not having looked at this sooner... :-/ Good luck to you all!

[noajthan]

Thanks!

Ok, so it sounds like PR then citizenship is the way to go.
Happy to spend some money, do the tests, etc.
It may take a year but it looks like that's the way it is...

However, on the government *permanent* residence page, they say the following:
...

what does that mean? I have no EEA family member, I'm single. can i ask for permanent residence anyway?

thanks for the help !

PS: for the permanent residency, that's the 100-page form, no way around that?

(also, no children, no prison, no benefit, nothing)

Gosh I hate myself for not having looked at this sooner... :-/ Good luck to you all!

You have misread something.
You don't need a family member, just apply in your own right as you are an EEA national.

Its not a mandatory nor legal requirement to use the latest 'monster' PR form.
You could go commando and apply by letter.

Or take a look at this PR form a member has compiled by mashing a previous/simpler PR form with the up-to-date HO contact and other details:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/128 ... ple_v2.pdf

Suggest printing a few copies off and trying a few dry runs with your information (& all supporting evidence) - see how it all shapes up.

Bonne chance mon brave!

[LilyLalilu]

It all looks pretty daunting at first but as long as you have good evidence of your activities in the UK, it is actually pretty straightforward once you put your mind to it. The form only looks so complicated because it comprises several different types of applications.
As said before, you can simply apply with a cover letter letter, enclosing proof of EEA nationality (passport or National ID card), evidence of your treaty rights and residence, a list of absences, payment and 2 passport pictures. My friend did this in March and got his DCPR issued after only 6 weeks. As you worked for 5 years without interruption, I'm sure there will be no issues with your application, as long as you have enough evidence (e.g. P60s, employer letters, NI contribution statement). Bon courage

[L_aventurier]

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

Where does that simpler form come from? Is it on any official web page? Obviously I don't want to wait for months to finally be told that I used a bad/old form!

Regarding 'supporting evidence'. what about the 2 years (2011-2013) where i started a company but was not paying myself. What should i use? Of course, I have no p60/p45. What's the process for those kind of cases?
(or people who pay themselves with dividend rather than salary, etc.)

(I worked normally for a bit more than 4 years, not sure if that helps.)

Thanks!

[noajthan]

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

Where does that simpler form come from? Is it on any official web page? Obviously I don't want to wait for months to finally be told that I used a bad/old form!

Regarding 'supporting evidence'. what about the 2 years (2011-2013) where i started a company but was not paying myself. What should i use? Of course, I have no p60/p45. What's the process for those kind of cases?
(or people who pay themselves with dividend rather than salary, etc.)

(I worked normally for a bit more than 4 years, not sure if that helps.)

Thanks!

Read the form. It explains itself.

2years unpaid self employment is unlikely to cut it.

Under EU law work/self-employment needs to be genuine & effective rather than marginal & supplementary.

HO will probably apply its MET/PET tests to you too, (even though that's outside EU law).

Unpaid work may qualify as self-sufficiency so long as you had CSI and weren't on benefits.

[L_aventurier]

what is CSI ?

I have never been on benefit. We were just building the business (software stuff) using personal funds to pay the rent and all before we could go toward real customers.

i find it strange that the fact I was working 4 years and a half before that has no effect. it's 10 years in the UK all in all.

it sounds like the legislation is not very helpful for entrepreneurs and the like...

[LilyLalilu]

Why would you want to use the 2011-2013 period? Didn't you say that you worked for 5 continuous years from 2006-2011?! If so, best just to use this period for your PR - much easier!

There is no wrong form as there is no legal requirement to use any form.

[noajthan]

what is CSI ?

I have never been on benefit. We were just building the business (software stuff) using personal funds to pay the rent and all before we could go toward real customers.

i find it strange that the fact I was working 4 years and a half before that has no effect. it's 10 years in the UK all in all.

it sounds like the legislation is not very helpful for entrepreneurs and the like...

The EU is all about promoting economic activity: genuine & effective work!
The requirements are well-known and easily met.

However simply serving time doesn't cut it; you need to understand and comply with the rules.

[L_aventurier]

I thought it was more about the last 5 years.

Also the 09/2006 to 01/2011 is less than 5 years unfortunately.
unless i'm allowed to use the previous year as well (09/2005-08/2006) when i did one MSc university year. Does that count?

CSI? Comprehensive Sickness Insurance? Never had any special health insurance, I just go to the GP if there is any issue.

[noajthan]

I thought it was more about the last 5 years.

Also the 09/2006 to 01/2011 is less than 5 years unfortunately.
unless i'm allowed to use the previous year as well (09/2005-08/2006) when i did one MSc university year. Does that count?

CSI? Comprehensive Sickness Insurance? Never had any special health insurance, I just go to the GP if there is any issue.

You need to help yourself out and do some more research.

PR is acquired automatically, simply after exercising treaty rights for 5 years - NOT necessarily during the last 5 years.

In fact if you had acquired PR in the past (& in your case you may well have done so) then you wouldn't have needed to exercise treaty rights any more (in past few years).

CSI is health insurance for EEA nationals - for immigration puposes. Nothing to do with doctors really, and it doesn't matter how healthy or ill and whether or not you've ever troubled a doctor.
Student qualified persons require to have held it - otherwise their carefree student years don't count towards acquiring PR.

Best thing you can do is fill out the draft form, collating your timeline and assembling supporting evidence as you go. See how it stacks up.

As already advised, start further back in time as that self-employment gig doesn't appear to hold water in PR terms.

[L_aventurier]

thanks.

God this is not looking good.

Just for a few months missing around that "09/2006 to 01/2011" job period....!

If I had known any of this at the time, I would have stayed a few more months of course. But how could I expect the UK could leave the EU? Anyway, this is now irrelevant.

So the year before that I was a student, the year after that i was self-sufficient.
In both cases, I held no special health insurance. What could I do?

Should i see with my parents to see if i was under their french insurance cover from 09-2005 to 08-2006?
Any other way around that CSI nightmare? Any alternative? Stuff to pay, I don't know.

Surely, there are gonna be dozens of thousands of people caught with that CSI rule, there must be some sort of alternative to get to 5 *consecutive* years without it.

Reading but struggling with all that legal speak.

[noajthan]

thanks.

God this is not looking good.

Just for a few months missing around that "09/2006 to 01/2011" job period....!

If I had known any of this at the time, I would have stayed a few more months of course. But how could I expect the UK could leave the EU? Anyway, this is now irrelevant.

So the year before that I was a student, the year after that i was self-sufficient.
In both cases, I held no special health insurance. What could I do?

Should i see with my parents to see if i was under their french insurance cover from 09-2005 to 08-2006?
Any other way around that CSI nightmare? Any alternative? Stuff to pay, I don't know.

Surely, there are gonna be dozens of thousands of people caught with that CSI rule, there must be some sort of alternative to get to 5 *consecutive* years without it.

Reading but struggling with all that legal speak.

Don't be too hard on yourself, and yes, many people are caught out by these types of requirements. You aren't the first; won't be the last.

Yes, good idea - check with parents for health cover.

A French-issued EHIC would help too (at least for your time as a student).

As would a UK RC issued in or pre-2011 to you as a student.

[L_aventurier]

You said 'As would a UK RC issued in or pre-2011 to you as a student.'
What do you mean? RC as in 'residence card'? surely not? (never asked anything like that)

On a side note, I must find that glossary page with all the acronyms used around here

Anyway, if there is nothing on my parent side. Am I completely screwed then or it is still worth sending my whole life story to get permanent residence with (in chronological order):

-1 year student, no CSI
-4.5 years, job
-2 years starting business but without paying myself (company registered at the start, some business 1 year later), definitely self-sufficient but no CSI
-3 years, normal company salary / contracting

more than 10 years but no perfect 5-year continuous period of exercising treaty rights...

Maybe I should see a lawyer or something... I don't know.

[noajthan]

You said 'As would a UK RC issued in or pre-2011 to you as a student.'
What do you mean? RC as in 'residence card'? surely not? (never asked anything like that)

On a side note, I must find that glossary page with all the acronyms used around here

Anyway, if there is nothing on my parent side. Am I completely screwed then or it is still worth sending my whole life story to get permanent residence with (in chronological order):

-1 year student, no CSI
-4.5 years, job
-2 years starting business but without paying myself (company registered at the start, some business 1 year later), definitely self-sufficient but no CSI
-3 years, normal company salary / contracting

more than 10 years but no perfect 5-year continuous period of exercising treaty rights...

Maybe I should see a lawyer or something... I don't know.

Yes, RC is residence certificate - for EEA national;
(residence card for non-EEA)

Useful but not compulsory:
https://www.gov.uk/eea-registration-certificate

If you had had one issued to you as a student in (or before) 2011 you could have invoked a certain transitional arrangement;
that would mean no need to demonstrate you had CSI in place as a student.

Life story won't cut it unfortunately. Its 5 years of continuously exercising treaty rights as a qualified person that's required.

See if you had an EHIC or if parents can come up trumps.
Best of British luck.

Worst case, you could/should acquire in PR in a couple of years if you keep working, with no prolonged absences from UK (- and no Brexit).

[manci]

You are unable to apply for British citizenship until you have been issued with confirmation of PR.

As the OP is a French national who has been resident in the UK for 10 years he can apply for PR and naturalisation simultaneously. Based on the evidence presented the HO will consider the earliest “deemed to have PR” date. As cross-reference he should submit explanatory letters with each of the two applications.

[LilyLalilu]

As the OP is a French national who has been resident in the UK for 10 years he can apply for PR and naturalisation simultaneously. Based on the evidence presented the HO will consider the earliest “deemed to have PR” date. As cross-reference he should submit explanatory letters with each of the two applications.

He needs to receive the confirmation of PR document before he applies for naturalisation and submit it with his AN application, he cannot apply for both at the same time. Without submitting a DCPR, his naturalisation application would be rejected.
He can however apply for naturalisation as soon as he receives his DCPR - as long as the period of treaty rights he used for his confirmation of PR application ended at least one year ago.

[L_aventurier]

So I'm after a permanent residence card and unfortunately, my timeline is as follow: (from 2005 to now, always in the UK)

-09/2005 to 08/2006 - 1 year student, no CSI
-09/2006 to 01/2011 - 4.5 years, job
-2011 to 2013 - 2 years starting a business but without paying myself at first (company registered early 2011, definitely self-sufficient but no CSI
-2013 to now - 3 years, normal company salary / IT contracting

So there is no 'straight-forward 5 years of exercising treaty right', a few months missing.

Anyway, what I would like to know in this topic specifically is how to make the beginning of the business years count.

I was not doing nothing, i was self-sufficient and working, always in the UK, looking after contracts as mail threads prove. Some contracts signed from 07/2012 etc. Is there no way at all? business startup time is always a grey area, how do you really prove that you were working?

And for the CSI thing? Isn't it possible to contribute later, to give some sort of lump sum of money for the time I was not on private health insurance / CSI?

I truly cannot believe I could be kicked out of the UK in the event of a Brexit after 11 years without ever asking for benefit or doing anything illegal just because of £200 of private insurance missing for a few month. I would need to go back to France for such a detail, feels like utterly demented (not blaming anyone here of course! just may need time to accept i guess... sorry sorry).

has anyone been reported to obtain PR despite a few months of CSI missing when staying in the UK for a decade?

Should I talk to a lawyer, call a special phone line. Anything?
help!

Many Thanks

[LilyLalilu]

About the CSI - did you by any chance have a non-UK EHIC card from France when you were a student here or could your French mutuelle confirm in writing that you were covered through them whilst being a student in the UK? Dates back quite a bit but may be worth a shot.
If that's the case, then you could also count your student years as exercising treaty rights.

[secret.simon]

Do you have a registration certificate issued on the basis of your residence in the UK as a student for 2005-6?

If you have such a certificate issued to you then, that would exempt you from the requirement of having CSI for that period and hence those years would count for the purpose of acquiring PR.

[L_aventurier]

-no such registration certificate, didn't ask for anything.

-for the french student mutuelle (french student insurance), i'm checking but i'm pretty sure that side was not in order and in therefore unusable...

Nothing that can be done for that business first year at all?

[noajthan]

Moved subsequent questions into original topic.

Multiple posts

[manci]

[
He needs to receive the confirmation of PR document before he applies for naturalisation and submit it with his AN application, he cannot apply for both at the same time. Without submitting a DCPR, his naturalisation application would be rejected.

He can apply simultaneously and the two applications will run concurrently but this should be flagged in both applications by means of covering letters. Assuming all requirements are met the PR will in effect be "backdated" therefore the need for the 1 year post-PR wait before applying for naturalisation will be satisfied.