EU Treaty Rights, Form EU1, Stamp4, Irish? Can anyone help?

[jlad]

Hello there,

I am in a rather complicated/difficult situation regarding of moving to Ireland (Republic) with regards to recent vote to Leave in UK. I have tried to search for similar situation on here but couldn't find much information so i thought i would try to post a new topic in hope to find someone who can answer my questions.

A bit for our background information, I am an non-Visa required national (to Ireland/UK) who is now living in Germany with my EU husband (British). I hold a Residence Card of Family Member of an Union Citizen issued by German Authorities because he is exercising his rights working in Germany (he works here for about 2 years now and me about 6 months).

We understand that with the recent event of Brexit, UK will eventually leave EU and hence British are no longer EU Citizen. My husband is also eligible to apply for Irish citizenship as his parents were born in Northern Ireland hence making him an Irish Citizen as well. We are thinking about moving to Ireland maybe in next 2 years or maybe sooner depending on his job in Germany.

We have also checked both national immigration laws for both UK/Ireland about its citizens bringing foreign spouses non-EEA returning to the country. UK requires £18,600 earnings a year while Ireland requires 40k euro savings in account. We do not have that kind of money for both countries.

We are concerned that after the termination of his job contracts, for examples, 2 years later and when UK leaves EU, we can no longer move to Ireland from Germany as EU citizen because at the time UK will no longer be a EU country and hence me being a non-EEA national will not benefit from his rights to bring non-EEA spouse to Ireland.

So here is my questions,

1. Should he apply for his Irish citizenship or do you think being British is more than enough? We have heard about residence rights of UK citizen in Ireland as i do not know how it works but it seems like British are treated as Irish citizen in Ireland and Irish are treated as British in UK.

2. If he were to apply his Irish citizenship, will he be eligible to go through similar to UK Surinder Singh route in Ireland after exercising his treaty rights working in Germany and i had hold a Residence Card issued by Germany? I have tried to search but have no luck finding much information. Even the website, inis.gov.ie (under EU Treaty Rights), Form EU1 and its explanatory leaflets have no much information about this. But it does say the following on its website,

Applications based on Irish nationals are not accepted by EU Treaty Rights Unit

Please note that we cannot accept applications under EU Treaty Rights provisions from non-EEA family members of Irish nationals. Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the EU and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States applies only to Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national.

Exceptions to this apply only in cases where the non-EEA national family member has previously held a residence card of a family member of a Union citizen which has been issued by another Member State under Article 10 of the Directive.

3. If we were to apply and settle in Ireland using Irish passport instead of British, will the non-EEA national spouse be issued Stamp 4 or Stamp4 EU FAM if it is successful? As far as i know from the websites, Stamp4 EU Fam is for EU citizen's spouse but since the sponsor will be an Irish Citizen, will the non-EEA national spouse still get Stamp4 EU FAM?

4. We are looking for settle down and Ireland seems like the right place for us as the remaing English-Speaking EU country. We have read that spouse of Irish citizens will be able to claim Irish citizenship or indefinite leave to remain after 3 years in Ireland, but will that be a problem with the non-EEA national spouse are given Stamp4 EU FAM which is based on EU citizen instead of Irish citizen.

5. According to Form EU1 Explanatory Leaflets, we know that there are certain documents we need for the application but regarding to current activity in Ireland, like employment, utilitiy bills, bank statements for both names in Ireland, tax number etc. But surely if we are to move to Ireland together from Germany, we wouldn't have all those when we enter Ireland and couldn't provide it as we have never lived in Ireland before.

6. Unlike UK EEA Family Permit/Residence Card application form, Form EU1 has no specific section for Surrinder Singh or for those returning citizen that has exercised their rights in EU and hence make it difficult to provide information as we havent got any activities in Ireland yet.The Form EU1 has only mentioned EU Citizen current activities in the State and has no mention about Irish citizen exercising EU rights etc. The UK application form does not need to fill in activities in UK as they have exercised their rights in EU countries and are british so no need to prove the employments/activities but do need to provide information in the EU country you exercised your rights, i wonder if it is the same for Irish application form as it hasnt mentioned anything?

If anyone knows anything about my questions, we welcome all suggestions/opinions.

Thank you.

[J_Karim]

Hi there
was reading your long letter..to be honest its bit complected because uk just leave eu as you know things are pretty much uncertain.
But if i were you id ask your husband to get his irish citizenship as you mentioned his grand father was an irish.It will take almost 6 month if all evidence come all in order and rest of the part is simple.
He can apply for you and you will have your eufam 4 visa.According to Form EU1 Explanatory Leaflets, we know that there are certain documents we need for the application but regarding to current activity in Ireland
id say once you moved to ireland and get rental accommodation all will come handy.By the way eu citizen does not have to have a job to apply for you he can be either in 1.(A) Employment 2.(B) Self-employment
3.(C) Study 4.(D) Involuntary Unemployment or 5.(E) Residing with sufficient resources ..
on the otherhand a good solicitor should be more appropriate for your situation.i know one very good solicitor if you interested..
hope it helps..

[J_Karim]

by the way if your husband get irish citizenship you will not be applying for EU4 instead it will be treated by local immigration rule as you will be a spouse of an irish..your visa status will stamp4. In this case if you get stamp 4 you will eligible for irish citizenship after 3 years.
here is the link for an irish spouse in INIS website
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP ... howtoapply

[jlad]

Hi,

Thank you for your reply.

One of his parents was born in NI so hence he is also an Irish citizen based on Irish nationality law. All he has to do is to apply for Irish passport instead of registering him on FBR.

As i have stated before, we do not have that kind of money of 40k euro lying around in our bank if we all under Irish national immigration law of bringing foreign spouse to Ireland. Is there no similar way like him being an Irish citizen exercising his rights which had worked abroad in another EU country and me holding a Residence card of a family member of a union citizen issued by another EU country?

Like i have stated in my Question 2, the website only had a short paragraph about my situation but hasnt elaborate more so we couldn't work out what documentation we needed in order to apply when we move to Ireland eventually.

Applications based on Irish nationals are not accepted by EU Treaty Rights Unit

Please note that we cannot accept applications under EU Treaty Rights provisions from non-EEA family members of Irish nationals. Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the EU and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States applies only to Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national.

Exceptions to this apply only in cases where the non-EEA national family member has previously held a residence card of a family member of a Union citizen which has been issued by another Member State under Article 10 of the Directive.

This is the only paragraph i can find on their website. Any experts care to help and guide us through this?

Thank you.

[bharool]

The EU treaty Rights department appear to be in a right mess at the minute.

I am British and claimed EU Treaty Rights on EU1A for my non EEA partner and children back in March and I am still waiting for any kind of response. They initally said 12-14 weeks but this has since passed and any emails to them are met with rather shirty responses.

My non EEA family members initial three month stamp has since expired and GNIB have said they cannot see us until we have official acknowledgement from EU Treaty Rights.

It's all rather shoddy to be honest and I have emailed Solvit last week to see if they can assist at all. I know it seems conspiracy theorist and all that but it's almost as if they had shelved the applications to see the outcome of the referendum. I have since taken up employment and purchased a property so feel rather unsettled by the lack of news.

You feel that any complaints will end up with negative decisions so they really do have you by the proverbial short and curlies.

[J_Karim]

From our further conversation ,if your husband gets his irish citizenship all he needs to inform german immigration as your are living in german they will update his immigration status as an irish national in their system.as you know it will be better becausue ireland is eu legislation country.
finally if you and your husband move to ireland i dont think you need to have that kinda money.its only apply when some one has to apply for his or her spouse from a different country.
even if you come along with your husband you are safe as you are married to an irish national.
its only hard when he has to apply for you and you living in different country.From my best knowledge you do not need visa if u want to enter ireland with your partner but you might need to have your marriage cert with you.
once you in, he can apply for your visa in ireland.They have provide you status as your married to him and he will have his irish citizenship..wont be hard
hope it helps

[ireland2016]

Hi there
was reading your long letter..to be honest its bit complected because uk just leave eu as you know things are pretty much uncertain.
But if i were you id ask your husband to get his irish citizenship as you mentioned his grand father was an irish.It will take almost 6 month if all evidence come all in order and rest of the part is simple.
He can apply for you and you will have your eufam 4 visa.According to Form EU1 Explanatory Leaflets, we know that there are certain documents we need for the application but regarding to current activity in Ireland
id say once you moved to ireland and get rental accommodation all will come handy.By the way eu citizen does not have to have a job to apply for you he can be either in 1.(A) Employment 2.(B) Self-employment
3.(C) Study 4.(D) Involuntary Unemployment or 5.(E) Residing with sufficient resources ..
on the otherhand a good solicitor should be more appropriate for your situation.i know one very good solicitor if you interested..
hope it helps..

Hi Karim
It's me fazal. Can you please pm message me your number. I will need your help . Or can you please text me solicitor number

[Obie]

Personal details or solicitors details cannot be shared on the board.