Pakistani Divorce valid or not?? very confuse

[sunoo]

Hi Everyone.

I am in process to apply spouse visa for my second wife from Pakistan. I have already submitted the online application and was going to send all the documents to Sheffield today. However my solicitor has just told me to withdraw the application as you will get the full refund (Because appointment is on 19/07) due to the divorce of my first wife is not valid OR recognised in the UK.

I am British Pakistani and married my first wife last year in January in Pakistan who was a Pakistani national. Marriage lasts only 7 weeks. I never applied her spouse visa to come to the UK so I went again in July to officially divorce her. I initiated the divorce process by sending her letter through court which was completed in November and I was issues a computerised divorce certificate from the union council.

Now my solicitor is telling me that since you are a British citizen you should have initiated the divorce process from the UK and due to some domicile issue (I can't remember exact words in legal terms) ECO will reject the application straightway and there is 0% chance of winning if it goes to the appeal.

I am very confused as to me the divorce is legal because my ex wife is Pakistani national whose visa I have never applied OR she never been to UK and still lives in Pakistan. I too hold a Pakistani passport and I followed the whole legal process to divorce her and even the certificate was issued from the Union Council.

My solicitor now advised to do the following:

Withdraw the application
Initiate the divorce process from UK court
Once all submitted then apply a fiancée visa for my current wife and register the marriage here in UK

I would really appreciate someone's advise who dealt with similar case in the past.

Many thanks in advance.

sunoo

[Casa]

2.1.2
"An overseas divorce would be recognised as valid under the 1971 Act
if:
• it was obtained by means of judicial or other proceedings in any country
outside the United Kingdom; and
• it was valid in that country; and
• either spouse was habitually resident in, or was a national of, that country"

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... ivorce.pdf

IMHO your solicitor's advice is flawed.

[sunoo]

Thanks Casa. I really appreciate.

However 2.1.2 is only valid if it was before 1988.

[Casa]

Sorry. Reading further down the page for divorce after 1988, 'c' appears to be in line with your solicitor's advice:
ii. either party to the marriage was domiciled in that country and the other
party was domiciled in a country under whose law the divorce is recognised
as valid; and
c. neither party to the marriage was habitually resident in the United Kingdom
throughout the period of one year immediately preceding that date;

[sunoo]

But again 'c' applies to overseas divorces.

Mine falls under 'Talaq' which sounds it is valid. Still very confused though because 'c' does makes my divorce invalid

But underneath 2.6.4 'RECOGNITION OF TALAQ PERFORMED OVERSEAS' makes in valid as it was an Islamic divorce recognised in Pakistan, issues by union council and me and my ex was national of that country.

What do you think?

[ILR1980]

Your first marriage last just 7 weeks thats very short period and would make ECO suspicious ..


Recognition of full Talaqs performed overseas
i. A full talaq under the MFLO(Muslim Family Laws Ordinance ) performed wholly in Pakistan (excluding Azad Kashmir
or Bangladesh) will be recognised if either spouse was:
• habitually resident, or domiciled in that country, or
• a national of that country

well all information is there

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... ivorce.pdf

[sunoo]

Thanks ILR1980.

Do you think my divorce under the section you have mentioned is valid?

We lived together for 7 weeks but I applied for divorce after 7 months quoting the reasons that she fell pregnant, aborted the child and claimed that it was miscarriage. Thanks to the nurse who performed the abortion was a friend of my sister and told us the whole story. Not sure what could be suspicious on this. Surely no one would like to live with a liar.

[Casa]

I'm not convinced that 'c' may not be come into play, however, I've also found:
A talaq obtained through proceedings will be recognised in the UK if at the relevant date either spouse
was “domiciled” in that country; or
was “habitually resident” in that country; or
was a national of that country.

I'm assuming it wasn't a 'bare Talaq'

[sunoo]

No It wasn't as bare talaq are only valid in Azad Kashmir. My marriage and Talaq both happened in Lahore. According to the points you have mentioned makes it valid though!

[ILR1980]

Thanks ILR1980.

Do you think my divorce under the section you have mentioned is valid?

We lived together for 7 weeks but I applied for divorce after 7 months quoting the reasons that she fell pregnant, aborted the child and claimed that it was miscarriage. Thanks to the nurse who performed the abortion was a friend of my sister and told us the whole story. Not sure what could be suspicious on this. Surely no one would like to live with a liar.

Yes it is and i am assuming you are not from azad kashmir
I dont know how and where you performed talaq/divorce but everything is clear in the link posted above. Please take some time and read it

If you gave divorce after 7 months then why you are saying that marriage last only 7 weeks?

[Casa]

There is an additional issue that your solicitor doesn't appear to have mentioned. Unless we can establish that your divorce will be accepted under British law, your second marriage won't be recognised for immigration purposes. This would mean that as the marriage is considered to be legal in Pakistan, you wouldn't be able to re-marry there. In order to bring your wife into the UK you would have to apply for a fiance visa and marry here within 6 months of her arrival and then apply for a spouse visa on form FLR(M).
The priority should be to confirm the legality of your divorce before allowing your solicitor to withdraw the application.

Edit: ILR1980 I believe sunoo is saying they lived together for 7 weeks and divorced after 7 months, not that the marriage lasted for 7 weeks.

[sunoo]

Thanks ILR1980.

Do you think my divorce under the section you have mentioned is valid?

We lived together for 7 weeks but I applied for divorce after 7 months quoting the reasons that she fell pregnant, aborted the child and claimed that it was miscarriage. Thanks to the nurse who performed the abortion was a friend of my sister and told us the whole story. Not sure what could be suspicious on this. Surely no one would like to live with a liar.

Yes it is and i am assuming you are not from azad kashmir
I dont know how and where you performed talaq/divorce but everything is clear in the link posted above. Please take some time and read it

If you gave divorce after 7 months then why you are saying that marriage last only 7 weeks?

I say 7 weeks because this is the time I lived with her so I do not count rest of the time. So If I count from the day we get married till the time I it finalised then it lasted about 11 months. And No I am not from Azad Kashmir. I am from Lahore.

[sunoo]

There is an additional issue that your solicitor doesn't appear to have mentioned. Unless we can establish that your divorce will be accepted under British law, your second marriage won't be recognised for immigration purposes. This would mean that as the marriage is considered to be legal in Pakistan, you wouldn't be able to re-marry there. In order to bring your wife into the UK you would have to apply for a fiance visa and marry here within 6 months of her arrival and then apply for a spouse visa on form FLR(M).
The priority should be to confirm the legality of your divorce before allowing your solicitor to withdraw the application.

Edit: ILR1980 I believe sunoo is saying they lived together for 7 weeks and divorced after 7 months, not that the marriage lasted for 7 weeks.

That's what I am doing Casa. This is now looking like point 'c' vs MFLO. As it is valid divorce in Pakistan and do match with all the points under 2.6.4 which says either spouse makes it valid. I need to discuss this with my solicitor again but this link gave me a huge hope

http://www.immigrationboards.com/immigr ... 65492.html

[ILR1980]

Thanks ILR1980.
I say 7 weeks because this is the time I lived with her so I do not count rest of the time. So If I count from the day we get married till the time I it finalised then it lasted about 11 months. And No I am not from Azad Kashmir. I am from Lahore.

Marriage/relationship is valid until the completion of divorce process so dont confuse ECO by saying that your marriage lasted 7 weeks .

[Casa]

It looks hopeful. AV Jones (who advised in the linked thread) is Queen's Counsel (Barrister).

[sunoo]

Marriage/relationship is valid until the completion of divorce process so dont confuse ECO by saying that your marriage lasted 7 weeks .[/quote]

Solicitor is there to handle that bit BUT we are all confused on the validity of the divorce. HO instruction are very confusing though

[Annonymous]

Hi Sunno,

I am exactly in the same boat and Allah Ka Karam I have just won my wifes visa appeal yesterday on the 8th of July 2016. please pm me your contact no I might be able to help you out.

Please I might be able to help you a lot.

Good luck

[ILR1980]

Solicitor is there to handle that bit BUT we are all confused on the validity of the divorce. HO instruction are very confusing though

You are still confuse about validity of your divorce?

I hope you will be fine . Here is another link to confirm

Read :
SET13.5 The Talaq divorce
Under traditional Islamic law a bare talaq divorce is deemed to have taken place when the husband pronounces three times ‘I divorce thee’. This pronouncement dissolves the marriage instantly.

However, the Muslim Family Law Ordinance 1961 (MFLO) sets out formal requirements for the recognition of full talaq divorces in all parts of Bangladesh and Pakistan except Azad Kashmir:

the husband must give notice in writing of the pronouncement of a talaq divorce to the Chairman of the Union Council of the Ward,
the husband must also give a copy of this notice to his wife.
At the end of 90 days (or at the end of the wife’s pregnancy if she is pregnant at this time) the divorce will take effect. There is provision for attempts at conciliation between the two parties during this 90 day period.

Only a talaq under the MFLO is considered to have been obtained by means of proceedings as defined under UK Acts.

If a full talaq divorce takes place in Bangladesh or Pakistan it will be recognised in the UK if the procedures laid down under the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance 1961 were complied with, and:

the husband or the wife is a Bangladeshi or Pakistani citizen;
or

he or she is habitually resident in Bangladesh or Pakistan;
or

he or she is domiciled in Bangladesh or Pakistan.
The MFLO procedures have not been formally extended to Azad Kashmir. The only form of divorce which can be recognised there is the traditional bare form. If a bare talaq divorce takes place in Azad Kashmir, it will be recognised in the UK only if:

the husband and wife are both domiciled in Azad Kashmir, and
neither partner has been habitually resident in the UK in the year immediately preceding the pronouncement of the divorce.
If a bare talaq divorce takes place elsewhere in Pakistan or Bangladesh, it will not be recognised in the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... aq-divorce

[sunoo]

Hi Sunno,

I am exactly in the same boat and Allah Ka Karam I have just won my wifes visa appeal yesterday on the 8th of July 2016. please pm me your contact no I might be able to help you out.

Please I might be able to help you a lot.

Good luck

Thank you. Just inboxed you mate. Hope to hear from you soon.

[sunoo]

Solicitor is there to handle that bit BUT we are all confused on the validity of the divorce. HO instruction are very confusing though

You are still confuse about validity of your divorce?

I hope you will be fine . Here is another link to confirm

Read :
SET13.5 The Talaq divorce
Under traditional Islamic law a bare talaq divorce is deemed to have taken place when the husband pronounces three times ‘I divorce thee’. This pronouncement dissolves the marriage instantly.

However, the Muslim Family Law Ordinance 1961 (MFLO) sets out formal requirements for the recognition of full talaq divorces in all parts of Bangladesh and Pakistan except Azad Kashmir:

the husband must give notice in writing of the pronouncement of a talaq divorce to the Chairman of the Union Council of the Ward,
the husband must also give a copy of this notice to his wife.
At the end of 90 days (or at the end of the wife’s pregnancy if she is pregnant at this time) the divorce will take effect. There is provision for attempts at conciliation between the two parties during this 90 day period.

Only a talaq under the MFLO is considered to have been obtained by means of proceedings as defined under UK Acts.

If a full talaq divorce takes place in Bangladesh or Pakistan it will be recognised in the UK if the procedures laid down under the Muslim Family Laws Ordinance 1961 were complied with, and:

the husband or the wife is a Bangladeshi or Pakistani citizen;
or

he or she is habitually resident in Bangladesh or Pakistan;
or

he or she is domiciled in Bangladesh or Pakistan.
The MFLO procedures have not been formally extended to Azad Kashmir. The only form of divorce which can be recognised there is the traditional bare form. If a bare talaq divorce takes place in Azad Kashmir, it will be recognised in the UK only if:

the husband and wife are both domiciled in Azad Kashmir, and
neither partner has been habitually resident in the UK in the year immediately preceding the pronouncement of the divorce.
If a bare talaq divorce takes place elsewhere in Pakistan or Bangladesh, it will not be recognised in the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... aq-divorce

@ILR1980: This stuff gave me a huge confidence and I just sent a text to my solicitor to proceed with application. He is still not convinced and wants me to sign the declaration form and that outcomes would be entirely my responsibility. He said he does not believe in forums advises or I should have asked someone from forum to help me out. He is now really making me angry. I paid £2200 pound for NHS and Visa application fees

[Casa]

Hi Sunno,

I am exactly in the same boat and Allah Ka Karam I have just won my wifes visa appeal yesterday on the 8th of July 2016. please pm me your contact no I might be able to help you out.

Please I might be able to help you a lot.

Good luck

Thank you. Just inboxed you mate. Hope to hear from you soon.

sunoo I believe your message will sit in your outbox until you've made 30 posts.

[sunoo]

Hi Sunno,

I am exactly in the same boat and Allah Ka Karam I have just won my wifes visa appeal yesterday on the 8th of July 2016. please pm me your contact no I might be able to help you out.

Please I might be able to help you a lot.

Good luck

Thank you. Just inboxed you mate. Hope to hear from you soon.

sunoo I believe your message will sit in your outbox until you've made 30 posts.

One issue after another. I can not spam people to get this sorted now lol

[noajthan]

One issue after another. I can not spam people to get this sorted now lol

Suggest post in public so all who are interested may share and advise, crosscheck that advice and benefit.

[ILR1980]

S
@ILR1980: This stuff gave me a huge confidence and I just sent a text to my solicitor to proceed with application. He is still not convinced and wants me to sign the declaration form and that outcomes would be entirely my responsibility. He said he does not believe in forums advises or I should have asked someone from forum to help me out. He is now really making me angry. I paid £2200 pound for NHS and Visa application fees

We provided link from Gov.UK sites so its not our personal assumption. you can forward him these links( Guidance Overseas divorces: SET13 Published 25 August 2013 .

It seem he is taking the fees while others are doing work for him lol but well good luck

[sunoo]

S
@ILR1980: This stuff gave me a huge confidence and I just sent a text to my solicitor to proceed with application. He is still not convinced and wants me to sign the declaration form and that outcomes would be entirely my responsibility. He said he does not believe in forums advises or I should have asked someone from forum to help me out. He is now really making me angry. I paid £2200 pound for NHS and Visa application fees

[/quote][/quote]
We provided link from Gov.UK sites so its not our personal assumption. you can forward him these links( Guidance Overseas divorces: SET13 Published 25 August 2013 .

It seem he is taking the fees while others are doing work for him lol but well good luck[/quote]

You are right ILR1980. I really appreciate the help you advise and I will surely ask my solicitor to add those regulations in the covering letter

All you guys been really helpful

I will keep on posting till I get the decision as there may be someone else in the similar situation pulling his/her hair ?