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Which Passport Queue?

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

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kankerot
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Which Passport Queue?

Post by kankerot » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:40 am

So my wife is a dual US/UK citizen as my kids. But only difference is never applied for a UK passport and now we are looking at going to the USA.

Now she has her old US passport with ILR, her new US passport and her Nat cert.

So what passports are best to use

1) Leaving UK border control
2) Entering US border control
3) Leaving US border control
4) Entering UK border control

Now 2) and 3) seem evident to me - use US passport, so we should book tickets using US passports so no need to provide esta.

So when it comes to returning to the UK which is the correct option?

UK queue as my wife is a UK citizen but no passport and the kids do have UK passports?

cs95tdg
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by cs95tdg » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:03 am

The most straightforward and recommended option would be for her to apply for a British passport before she leaves.

But assume you are asking because that isn't possible at this time?

Based on your post, is your intention to show both US border control and the airline her current US passport, implying that she will be entering the UK as a visitor? And then when at UK immigration control is your intention to convince the IO that she is entering as a British citizen by showing her current US passport and naturalisation certificate (with the understanding that entry may be delayed to allow for her nationality to be verified) ?

Her ILR on her old UK passport will no longer be valid now.

Under another thread I saw a comment around there being exit control checks when leaving the UK as well, so not entirely sure how that fits into the scheme of things. I've never personally gone through any immigration checks myself when leaving, so not sure if it's done consistently.

cs95tdg
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by cs95tdg » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:06 am

cs95tdg wrote:Her ILR on her old UK passport will no longer be valid now.
A typo here, I meant US.

Richard W
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by Richard W » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:42 am

cs95tdg wrote:Her ILR on her old UK passport will no longer be valid now.
Is there any evidence she won't be able to re-enter the UK using it?

I agree the naturalisation certificate will provide back-up in case it fails, though I'm not sure how mere British nationals get the right to enter for the purpose of settlement.

noajthan
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by noajthan » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:57 am

kankerot wrote:So my wife is a dual US/UK citizen as my kids. But only difference is never applied for a UK passport and now we are looking at going to the USA.

...

So when it comes to returning to the UK which is the correct option?

UK queue as my wife is a UK citizen but no passport and the kids do have UK passports?
Why would someone represent themself (at UK border) as an American (visitor?) with invalid ILR. (And they should pop up as British on the IO's screen anyway).
Having done so on egressing US, presumably for perceived convenience and to avoid explanations, doesn't justify doing so at UK border.

If British represent yourself as British, act British and get in British line. Explain it all to the wo/man at the counter.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

kankerot
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by kankerot » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:32 am

Well the US prefers that you enter and exit US on your US passport.

So to clarify. We book tickets for 3 travellers on their US passports.

Then on return they enter the queue for British Nationals where she shows my kids UK passports and her nat cert and explains didnt get chance to get UK passport but will do next time?

cs95tdg
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by cs95tdg » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:50 pm

kankerot wrote:Then on return they enter the queue for British Nationals where she shows my kids UK passports and her nat cert and explains didnt get chance to get UK passport but will do next time?
Yes.

Richard W
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by Richard W » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:37 pm

noajthan wrote:If British represent yourself as British, act British and get in British line. Explain it all to the wo/man at the counter.
The logical legal position is quite weird. Under Section 3(9) of the Immigration Act 1971 (as amended)
(9)A person seeking to enter the United Kingdom and claiming to have the right of abode there shall prove it by means of—
  1. a United Kingdom passport describing him as a British citizen,
  2. a United Kingdom passport describing him as a British subject with the right of abode in the United Kingdom,
  3. an ID card issued under the Identity Cards Act 2006 describing him as a British citizen,
  4. an ID card issued under that Act describing him as a British subject with the right of abode in the United Kingdom, or
  5. a certificate of entitlement.
So, if the Immigration Officer asserts that the OP's wife is a British citizen, he ought to allow her in as she has the right of abode. If, as is his right, he refuses to accept that she is a British citizen, then unless her ILR has actually been revoked, she still has ILR, and he must admit her.

We don't know how long the OP's wife has been British, and how long ago she received ILR. As UKVI (UKBA as I think it was then) had a policy of deleting most inactive files after 15 years, it is entirely possible that they have no record of her having ILR (note that she has no BRP), and so will not have revoked it. Moreover, though while they did have a policy of revoking BRPs upon naturalisation, we don't know how far the program has gone; some one may have decided it was simpler and cheaper to just revoke the BRP when the holder was stripped of British nationality. (The cause of the problem is that some one was stripped of British citizenship but then entered using the UK using his BRP evidencing ILR.) I therefore think it is unlikely that her ILR has actually been revoked.

As to the motivation of the law on proof of citizenship, I recall reading an explanation in Parliament that only passports were accepted as proof because otherwise too much time would be spent checking other documents. (Can an expert googler help here? I can't find it in Hansard.) In most of the recent cases, people have only just become British, and an IO may be expected to have sympathy with their position. In this case, the OP's wife seems to have had plenty of time to obtain a British passport, so I fear she may not get much sympathy.
noajthan wrote:Why would someone represent themself (at UK border) as an American (visitor?) with invalid ILR. (And they should pop up as British on the IO's screen anyway).
I think she would present herself as someone who has been given permission to stay in the UK without time limit. The conditions have changed, but not in any way relevant to the proposed returns. (She's a dual national, so her permission can still be revoked, though not as readily as before naturalisation.)

There is anecdotal precedent for dual national American/British citizens entering for settlement being admitted as visitors.
noajthan wrote:Having done so on egressing US, presumably for perceived convenience and to avoid explanations, doesn't justify doing so at UK border.
Would the OP's wife have to state the purpose of her journey to the UK in order to board? I thought the legal position was that normal Americans don't need visas in order to seek admission at British ports.

As to the queue, my understanding is that Immigration prefer families not to be split, so the OP's wife should use a queue applicable to demonstrably British British citizens. This is the queue she should use even if she were not British.

I think the new American passport should be used on departure; this better establishes on the computer records that she was recently in the UK. This is relevant to any argument based on still having ILR if proof of the truth be held inadmissible, in accordance with the law of the land.

noajthan
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by noajthan » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:51 pm

An IO cannot 'reactivate' someone's dead ILR or make it valid again just because she decides they're not British (in the face of evidence of nc).

Get in British Q, show naturalistion certificate, demand to see higher authority if need be, sing national anthem if need be; get out through customs.

It does beg question why OP's wife is going through all this palaver.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

secret.simon
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by secret.simon » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:26 pm

Richard W wrote:As to the motivation of the law on proof of citizenship, I recall reading an explanation in Parliament that only passports were accepted as proof because otherwise too much time would be spent checking other documents. (Can an expert googler help here? I can't find it in Hansard.)
I could not find it in Hansard either, but I did find a submission by the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association for the Immigration Bill (now Act) 2014. As such it is not a ministerial or legislative statement, merely the opinion of a group of immigration lawyers. But it is worth reflecting on.
Checks are difficult
ILPA is familiar with dealing with persons under immigration control and makes the following comments. These are in part based on our experience of the civil penalty system for employers, see further our August 2013 response to Strengthening and simplifying the civil penalty scheme to prevent illegal working
  • A "UK passport" does not mean that a person is a British citizen. There are many types of UK passport and some people who hold a UK passport are not exempt from immigration control. - This refers to the passports issued to British non-citizen nationals, such as BOCs and BNOs.

    A naturalisation certificate does not prove that a person has British citizenship. The person may have renounced that citizenship subsequently or have had it taken away.

    A person with a right of abode certificate is not necessarily a British citizen.- I know of at least one Commonwealth citizen with Right of Abode acquired before 1983, who is not a British citizen.
The notes in italics are mine.

I think that the OP should certainly be aware of the fact that a naturalisation certificate does not automatically mean that his spouse would have no issues at the border and should give some thought to the spouse applying for either a CoE-RoA or a British passport as soon as possible.

As an aside, any reason why the spouse did not apply for a British passport in the past two months?
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

noajthan
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by noajthan » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:50 pm

secret.simon wrote:The notes in italics are mine.

I think that the OP should certainly be aware of the fact that a naturalisation certificate does not automatically mean that his spouse would have no issues at the border and should give some thought to the spouse applying for either a CoE-RoA or a British passport as soon as possible.

As an aside, any reason why the spouse did not apply for a British passport in the past two months?
The IO should be able to ascertain traveller status based on targeted questioning plus the combination of invalid ILR, passport(s), also APP/APIS/DCS/PNR data and, ahem, other information that is munged together on her screen.

Its not simply a case of looking at a bit of paper or a passport waved under her nose.
But noone said it should be easy and OP shouldn't expect it to be.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

kankerot
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by kankerot » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:26 am

ILR since 2009, BC since May this year. Not applied for UK passport as wasn't thinking to travel as soon as we thought and yes its been over 2 months and we have let it slide.

Travelling back via Dublin so would that make it any different? IAD to Dublin?

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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by Richard W » Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:32 am

kankerot wrote:ILR since 2009, BC since May this year. Not applied for UK passport as wasn't thinking to travel as soon as we thought and yes its been over 2 months and we have let it slide.
That may make a big difference to the IO's attitude - all to the good. 'Never' suggested rather longer than 2 months since naturalisation. Recent precedent is there for admission despite the law, regardless of what has been recorded about her current ILR status.
kankerot wrote:Travelling back via Dublin so would that make it any different? IAD to Dublin?
In theory, yes. She would be entitled to admission to Ireland as the family member of an EEA national, you, so long as you aren't an Irish citizen. Bring your marriage certificate, and ideally the children's birth certificates as further evidence that your marriage is not a marriage of convenience.

On the downside, if you are known to be an Irish citizen, you could have an Irish immigration officer trying to apply British entry rules, which could be awkward.

kankerot
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by kankerot » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:12 am

She will be travelling to the USA with our 2 kids and travelling back with them. I won't be travelling back with her she is staying longer.

So she will be flying from DC to Dublin then onto Manchester.

Or is it best we change flights and she comes back via heathrow or Brussels/ Amsterdam etc?

I am not an Irish citizen, kids born in UK with both UK and US passports. Wife born abroad with US passport and as mentioned UK natural cert.

Best to take original cert.

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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by Richard W » Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:02 pm

kankerot wrote:So she will be flying from DC to Dublin then onto Manchester.
Where does she have to pass immigration?

If it's just Dublin, then there is a usable EU approach, though potentially a bit more confrontational than I would like. In Ireland, as she's British and not Irish, she's allowed to use any relevant evidence to prove she's British - Article 5(4) Directive 2004/38/EC transposed to Regulation 4(5) of SI 548/2015 European communities (Free Movement of Persons) Regulation 2015. That should override any authority that Section 3(9) of the merely British Immigration Act 1971. The relevant parts of the CTA are just a bilateral understanding. As a British citizen not connected with the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands, she has a right to enter Ireland.

My first thought that having to deal with an Irish IO might cause problems is wrong - Irish law gives her the benefit of her EU citizenship, especially how to prove it.

As far as boarding for the second leg is concerned, the American passport should suffice.
kankerot wrote:Or is it best we change flights and she comes back via heathrow or Brussels/ Amsterdam etc?
These alternatives will all involve passing through British Immigration, which barring relevant examples I think we have discussed to death.
kankerot wrote:Best to take original cert.
And also the passport with the ILR stamp. She may need it if she faces UK Immigration.

kankerot
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by kankerot » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:49 am

Richard thanks for your brilliant advice.

Wife will travel with both her US passports -the current one, the previous one that is expired but has the ILR and her Naturalisation certificate. Kids will travel with both their passports.

So does she declare she is a British citizen or just try to use her ILR in her passport?

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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by noajthan » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:54 am

noajthan wrote:If British represent yourself as British, act British and get in British line. Explain it all to the wo/man at the counter.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

Richard W
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Re: Which Passport Queue?

Post by Richard W » Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:55 pm

kankerot wrote:So does she declare she is a British citizen or just try to use her ILR in her passport?
She should not deny that she is British. However, I think the journey will be smoothest if she presents her two American passports. Claiming to be British is likely to cause a delay, whether at Dublin, where as a British citizen she does have a right of entry at the (air)port, or at Manchester, where, as she has no passport evidencing right of abode directly or via endorsements, she does not.

If Ireland refuses to admit her without evidence that she is British, and stamp her passport with an indication that she is a British citizen, then she will have to trust to her naturalisation certificate if seriously challenged by an Immigration Officer in Britain.

Now, if she is admitted to Ireland and the plane for the second leg is only travelling from Ireland to the UK, then when she arrives at Manchester, as an American she automatically gets permission to stay for 3 months. (There is some provision that would prevent extant ILR from lapsing, but I am ignoring that.) As far as I can tell, this is regardless of the purpose for coming to the UK, i.e. despite coming to resume settlement. (I deduce this from my reading of the Immigration Act 1971 and SI 1972 No. 1610 the Immigration (Control of Entry Through Republic of Ireland) Order 1972.) Now I may be wrong; it may be that because she is a British citizen she gets no such permission, so still has no right to enter at a port. My argument would best be summarised by her as, "But I've just come from Ireland, isn't that part of the Common Travel Area?'.

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