Unsuccessful Application

[micz8]

Hi
I was in the country on a student visa from 2001 till 2004. I left the country within my visa.
I came back in 2009 on Tier 1 and got ILR. I applied for Naturalisation early this year and now I received a letter from Home Office that " ACCORDING TO OUR RECORDS YOU WERE IN THE UK WITHOUT LEAVE TO REMAIN UNDER THE IMMIGRATION LAWS ". There is a questionnaire with that letter which ask for information such as job, place of residence etc.
Could anyone on the forum advise / suggest about this please.
Thanks

[cs95tdg]

Hi
I was in the country on a student visa from 2001 till 2004. I left the country within my visa.
I came back in 2009 on Tier 1 and got ILR. I applied for Naturalisation early this year and now I received a letter from Home Office that " ACCORDING TO OUR RECORDS YOU WERE IN THE UK WITHOUT LEAVE TO REMAIN UNDER THE IMMIGRATION LAWS ". There is a questionnaire with that letter which ask for information such as job, place of residence etc.
Could anyone on the forum advise / suggest about this please.
Thanks

With the minimal information shared here, what the HO appear to be saying is that you were a overstayer or were in the UK without any leave to remain. And if I'm not mistaken they appear to be asking you to provide evidence of how you supported yourself during that period, to establish whether you would have been working without permission during that time.

It may help if you elarorate on the refusal reason - removing any personal information, & provide your full immigration history with dates, to establish whether you had breached any immigration rules during the 10 years immediately prior to your naturalisation application. The HO would review this period as part of the good character requirement for citizenship.

[micz8]

Hi
As i mentioned that i was on a student visa until october 2004. I left the UK before the expiry of student visa. I came back to UK in 2009 on Tier 1 General and than got ILR on completion of years residence. Few months ago I applied for Naturalisation on Form AN but the home office sent me a letter asking more information. It does says on the letter that I have been in the UK without leave to remain under the immigration rules from 2004 till 2009.
Whereas its not true.
I also want to mention here that as per my National Insurance records from HMRC it looks like someone has been working on my NI number during this period and it could be because of that HO assume that I was in the country.
Please give me advise/suggestion what should I do

[Casa]

In which case you first need to clarify with HMRC who was using your NI number and how they were able to do this.

[cs95tdg]

As i mentioned that i was on a student visa until october 2004. I left the UK before the expiry of student visa. I came back to UK in 2009 on Tier 1 General and than got ILR on completion of years residence. Few months ago I applied for Naturalisation on Form AN but the home office sent me a letter asking more information. It does says on the letter that I have been in the UK without leave to remain under the immigration rules from 2004 till 2009.
Whereas its not true.

Do you have your passport which shows that you left the UK in 2004 and that you didn't re-enter until 2009? (I.e. Entry stamp to your home country, as you wouldn't have an UK exit stamp, and thereafter your entry stamp as a T1G migrant in 2009)

I also want to mention here that as per my National Insurance records from HMRC it looks like someone has been working on my NI number during this period and it could be because of that HO assume that I was in the country.

If this is true, then clearly you would need to report this to HMRC and try to get to the bottom of how this was possible. Identity theft?

It would appear that the HO believe you were working in the UK illegally between 2004-2009 because of your HMRC employment history records.

[micz8]

I want to put this issue in front of experts on this forum which is linked to naturalisation application.

My question is....if anyone has been resident in UK and hold UK NI number, and when his/her leave to remain expires and he/she go back to home country. By law he/she still work for UK company from abroad ?

[secret.simon]

Many British companies work on a global basis, but NINO is not a requirement for that. It is of course necessary to follow the employment laws of the country where you work.

So, for instance, Marks and Spencers operates in my country of origin. If I worked there for them, I would not require (nor acquire) a UK NINO. I would require and acquire an employment registration number in that country itself.

Do you have your passport which shows that you left the UK in 2004 and that you didn't re-enter until 2009? (I.e. Entry stamp to your home country, as you wouldn't have an UK exit stamp, and thereafter your entry stamp as a T1G migrant in 2009)

cs95tdg's question is what you need to focus on. What proof do you have that you left the UK in 2004 and lived abroad between 2004 and 2009? Apart from an entry stamp from your country of origin, proof that you lived in that country (or any country other than the UK for that matter) would help. Employment records, renatl agreements, salary slips and bank statements, etc.

[Obie]

Did they set out which Period you were in the UK without leave?

If you NI was fraudulently used, then you may need to set the record straight with HMRC, and the alleged Employer.

[micz8]

Immigratio entry stamp in my passport clearly shows that I left UK within the validity of visa. Another proof is that I obtain visas for other countries from my home country and travelled there.
The thing is that when I left UK and my UK visa expires, my employer keep me on payroll till I came back to UK on Tier 1 General.

Plz advise

[Obie]

He can keep you on Payroll and not give P45, but how was he paying you.

If you were on HMRC as employed, but no pay or taxes were paid, then fine, but if you were, then you will need to explain how.

[cs95tdg]

The thing is that when I left UK and my UK visa expires, my employer keep me on payroll till I came back to UK on Tier 1 General.

Just so it's clear to anyone who attempts to advise next, do you now mean that what you said previously, underlined below was incorrect?

I also want to mention here that as per my National Insurance records from HMRC it looks like someone has been working on my NI number during this period and it could be because of that HO assume that I was in the country.

If so then is the real question you are asking whether it was illegal for you to have been on a UK payroll (paying taxes and NI contributions in the UK) while living elsewhere, during a time period where you had no leave to remain in the UK?

A additional follow-up question, what type of employment were you on while in the UK on a student visa? It's unclear why an employer (assuming this was temporary part-time employment permitted while on a student visa) would keep paying you a UK salary in your particular circumstances. It would possibly have been different if it were a skilled migrant who returned to their home country and came back to the UK at a later date. That is something I have heard of before. May be you can elaborate so that there is more clarity around your particular circumstances and therefore why the HO may have reached the decision they have.

[Obie]

If he was outside the UK and receiving pay, then it is perfectly fine, and not subject to the 1971 act, and it cannot be said that he was working in the UK without leave, as he was not a person that require leave.

[cs95tdg]

If he was outside the UK and receiving pay, then it is perfectly fine, and not subject to the 1971 act, and it cannot be said that he was working in the UK without leave, as he was not a person that require leave.

Agree, with that, as have in the past been a similar situation for a short period of time myself.

What was confusing to me was that the information provided by the OP appears to have changed since the original post. The advise and responses now will be with that in mind.

[Obie]

I accept. I was just expressing an hypothetical view.

I did note as you rightly pointed out, that OP was at some point, appear to be suggesting that his NI was used fraudulently.

I am having difficulty understanding the position as well.

[micz8]

Dear all

In order to clear confusion, i am going to mention all the timeline below:

1. I left UK in October 2004 and went back to my home country

2. my UK student visa expires November 2004

3. I applied Tier 1 General in 2009 from my home country

4. I got Tier 1 General Entry Clearance in 2009

5. I got ILR in 2015

6. I applied for Naturalisation in 2016. In response I have been sent a letter from Home Office which states that as per home office record I was in the UK from October 2004 till 2009. Home Office sent a questionnaire with that letter asking for information.

Infact its not true. I was living in my home country.

Last year I requested HMRC for my NI Statement and on that It shows NI Contributions were paid for the years 2004 till 2009. I didnt take any action as I thought it could be mistake on HMRC part. Now after I received this letter from Home Office I investigated and came to know that one of my relative who owns a company and for whom I was working in the year 2004 kept me on payroll even after I left UK.

I think thats why home office think I was in the country. I have very strong evidence and proof to send to home office that I was not in the UK.

Now my question is:

1. If I say yes I was working for this company from abroad, is it legal and allowed by law ?

[noajthan]

If on payroll and paying NI then you/someone was receiving salary as NI is %-based.

You would surely remember if you were working and getting paid for a number of years.
Thus surely no surprise you show up in HMRC.

And it is well established that HO use HMRC as one indicator of 'residency'.

Or else your creative relative entrepreneur was doing some very creative accounting around your identity and NINO.
A ghost employee? For T1E??

Evidently its now at your expense. A kind of migration karma if you will.

And you appear not to have known about this so why would you compound the problem by saying "yes" you were working?!
Come clean, tell them the truth instead of looking for the optimal 'best story'.

[micz8]

So my understanding from your reply is that I should not mention about this that although I was not in the country but I was still on payroll.

Instead I should only send HO the proof that I was not in the UK.

Please confirm

[noajthan]

So my understanding from your reply is that I should not mention about this that although I was not in the country but I was still on payroll.

Instead I should only send HO the proof that I was not in the UK.

Please confirm

No, I mean all you can do is try to explain exactly what happened for the period in question:

• where you were and when (with proof);
  who you worked for and when (wherever you were based);
  where you have been paying tax etc and when;
  why there is a continuing UK HMRC papertrail for you;
  what your relative did in your name, when (& why);
  whether you were a 'beneficiary' of relative's actions;

To get out of this pickle you will need to disclose everything, not just put a good spin on it.

[secret.simon]

When you were abroad and yet on your relative's payroll, did you actually get any salary/wages? Or was somebody else getting paid in your name? You need to have words with your relative and get an explanation of this "phantom" salary.

From HMRC's point of view, it was associated with you via your NINO. You will need all the paperwork you have to disprove it with UKV&I.

That will involve essentially telling HMRC that your relative has been cooking the books. It won't do you any favours at home. I would not want to be at your Christmas dinner (or Eid iftaar or gurudwara langaar for that matter).

To get out of this pickle you will need to disclose everything, not just put a good spin on it.

+1 Tell them the truth with as much proof as possible. You are in a deep enough hole. Stop digging.

[Obie]

You need to establish through PAP, exactly what UKVI case against you is.

In law, public authority must provide sufficient reasoning for any decision they make.

If they did not say why you were living here without leave, then perhaps you need to seek clarification as to why and how they said so.

The exercise you are seeking to undertake is a grave digger, as in my opinion, there may be information in the application itself which may implicate you.

[asp]

If you were not working for your relative's company abroad don't say that you were. If UKVI catch you in this lie they will (rightly) take stern action against you. Telling lies to try to obtain BC is playing with fire.

Set out very clearly the proof of you not being in the UK during these years. You will also have to admit that your relative used your NI number without your permission, as UKVI clearly know it was being used and will want a credible explanation from you.

If you don't want to do this you will have to be content with sticking with ILR.

[RRSB2012]

Micz8,

A British company cannot keep you on their payroll if you don't have the right to live and work in UK. So for example, you cannot be an expat sitting and working in for e.g. BP South Africa office while on Payroll of BP UK if you didn't had the right to work in UK.

Reading your message it seems like you want to save your relative who got you in trouble or may be it is just that you don't want to create rifts in the family. Unfortunately its a bit difficult choice here.

Best of luck.
R

[saka0910]

The thing is that when I left UK and my UK visa expires, my employer keep me on payroll till I came back to UK on Tier 1 General.

Well, you cannot change it now but there is something called as P85 where you declare to HMRC that you are leaving the country. If this was done you could have saved a lot of trouble. Did your relative not give you P45?

Here your relative has clearly made personal gains using your NI (tax avoidance on amount shown as "Your" salary).

Truth is the only way. If you were not the beneficiary (again its very difficult to prove it) then your relative's company will be in trouble.

Worst case stick with ILR and ask your relative to actually give you your salary for 5 years!


Can you ask your relative/employer to tell you where your salary was paid? In which account and who holds that account (other than yourself obviously). If you get these documents at least you can prove you are not at fault.

[micz8]

Hi all,

As I need to gather evidence and need some time. The deadline to reply HO is tomorrow.

Is it OK if I send a letter today to HO requesting some more time ? Is it normal ?

I am afraid if I send letter requesting more time they might will refuse my application without granting more time.

Please advise

[noajthan]

Hi all,

As I need to gather evidence and need some time. The deadline to reply HO is tomorrow.

Is it OK if I send a letter today to HO requesting some more time ? Is it normal ?

I am afraid if I send letter requesting more time they might will refuse my application without granting more time.

Please advise

You need to respond with the time limit set by the caseworker.