Singh route 5 years straight to naturalisation

[greatscott]

Hi, apologies guys, we have searched the FAQ's but still a little confused because there have been changes and not sure what does and doesn't affect our entry year/date.

We arrived Jan 2012 via Surinder Singh route and received RC's. Our under 21 child arrived 6 months later due to being held up by school and, through a separate application, also received RC. So we are all closing in on our 5 years in the UK.

The steps we are approaching are:
8. After completing 5 years in the UK, apply for permanent residence for your non-EEA spouse without the requirements of English Language and Life in the UK test.

9. Apply for British Nationality for your spouse.

Question 1: can we apply for citizenship in Jan 2017 together since we see ourselves as a family, or must our child wait another 6 months?

Question 2: If we wish to skip step 8 (EEA 4) and apply directly for naturalisation, do we have to do any of the English language requirements, Life in the UK etc? Form AN says yes but that form targets many different types of applicants, so perhaps it is different for Surinder Singh route applicants?

Question 3: If we have to do English language and our passports show that we are nationals of a majority English speaking country, will that be enough to cover our english?

Thanks

[noajthan]

Hi, apologies guys, we have searched the FAQ's but still a little confused because there have been changes and not sure what does and doesn't affect our entry year/date.

...

Question 1: can we apply for citizenship in Jan 2017 together since we see ourselves as a family, or must our child wait another 6 months?

Question 2: If we wish to skip step 8 (EEA 4) and apply directly for naturalisation, do we have to do any of the English language requirements, Life in the UK etc? Form AN says yes but that form targets many different types of applicants, so perhaps it is different for Surinder Singh route applicants?

Question 3: If we have to do English language and our passports show that we are nationals of a majority English speaking country, will that be enough to cover our english?

Thanks

1) Is non-EEA applicant married to sponsor/spouse?
If so, dependent spouse may acquire PR in early 2017.
Assuming: still married, no prolonged absences by either party.

Did child participate in SS in another memberstate too?
On what basis was child's RC issued?
6 months separation from sponsor may be problematic.

2) No idea where step 8 came from.

There are no special cases for SS-ers but LITUK and English is not required for PRC/DCPR.
However, to apply to naturalise an applicant on EU route needs PRC/DCPR plus LITUK plus proof of English, etc etc.

3) Which English-speaking country?
A country on list on Gov UK proof of English exemption webpage?

[Noetic]

You must all get PR document before applying for naturalisation. You can't skip that step.

[greatscott]

Thanks for replies:
Noajthan:
1. yes, married, no absences.
Child participated in SS in memberstate. RC issued on basis that child was living with us in memberstate and explained as such in the EEA2 submission for him. RC issued. Child still lives with us. I don't think there is a problem but please let me know if you think there may be.
2. Step 8 refers to EEA4 application for PR. My understanding for PR as opposed to citizenship for the Singh route is that neither english test or LITUK is required, and if it is it became a requirement after 2012 when we arrived?....I cannot find definitive info on changes made to singh applicants after the date of our arrival, EEA2 submission, and RC being issued, but read somewhere on this forum that any changes did not affect those on an existing trajectory or pathway.
Thanks for confirming if we went for PR, then LITUK and English is not required for PRC/DCPR. See also my answer to Noetic below.
3. Yes exempted country, just checked, thanks.

Noetic:
Jambo said this (http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... ralisation):

Singh is under the EEA regulations. PR Confirmation is obtained automatically under EEA regulations.EEA4 is not mandatory and not required for naturalisation.

and

As British you can't (and not required to) apply for EEA3.
If the goal is British citizenship, you may want to skip the EEA4 application as this application is optional. The downside applying for EEA4 is that it can take 6 months. The upside is that it will make yournaturalisation application more "standard". If you decide to save time and skip it, I suggest you explain your circumstances clearly on the naturalisation application as the caseworker doesn't see a SurinderSingh application everyday.

So my question is about not formalising our permanent residence with an EEA4 application (its granted automatically right?) but instead, based on Jambo's comments, (for the Surinder Singh route) applying for citizenship and a passport straight away.
Non EU spouse should be able to apply 5 years after the day of entry right?
Non EU child can apply with spouse, or must wait another 6 months?

Thanks

[noajthan]

Thanks for replies:
Noajthan:
1. yes, married, no absences.
Child participated in SS in memberstate. RC issued on basis that child was living with us in memberstate and explained as such in the EEA2 submission for him. RC issued. Child still lives with us. I don't think there is a problem but please let me know if you think there may be.
2. Step 8 refers to EEA4 application for PR. My understanding for PR as opposed to citizenship for the Singh route is that neither english test or LITUK is required, and if it is it became a requirement after 2012 when we arrived?....I cannot find definitive info on changes made to singh applicants after the date of our arrival, EEA2 submission, and RC being issued, but read somewhere on this forum that any changes did not affect those on an existing trajectory or pathway.
Thanks for confirming if we went for PR, then LITUK and English is not required for PRC/DCPR. See also my answer to Noetic below.
3. Yes exempted country, just checked, thanks.

Noetic:
Jambo said this (http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... ralisation):

Singh is under the EEA regulations. PR Confirmation is obtained automatically under EEA regulations.EEA4 is not mandatory and not required for naturalisation.

and

As British you can't (and not required to) apply for EEA3.
If the goal is British citizenship, you may want to skip the EEA4 application as this application is optional. The downside applying for EEA4 is that it can take 6 months. The upside is that it will make yournaturalisation application more "standard". If you decide to save time and skip it, I suggest you explain your circumstances clearly on the naturalisation application as the caseworker doesn't see a SurinderSingh application everyday.

So my question is about not formalising our permanent residence with an EEA4 application (its granted automatically right?) but instead, based on Jambo's comments, (for the Surinder Singh route) applying for citizenship and a passport straight away.
Non EU spouse should be able to apply 5 years after the day of entry right?
Non EU child can apply with spouse, or must wait another 6 months?

Thanks

1) On that basis child should be on right path.
But child will only acquire PR after 5 year residence in UK (no prolonged absences).

This is an interesting case (based on delayed entry) for the Surinder Singh-heads and twitchers.
It is in alignment with EU case law on such scenarios.
However, if HO plays hardball with child's PR application (uninformed or gung ho caseworker) you may need to dig into such case law to back the case.

2) For PR, or rather, confirmation of PR = PRC/DCPR (depending on whether non-EEA or EEA) noone needs LITUK or proof of English.

Forget all those ancient/out of date comments from esteemed Jambo and others, all those comments are well out of date now.

Rules changed in late 2015.
UK has, somewhat bizarrely, made an optional and purely confirmatory EU-related document (PRC/DCPR) now mandatory for the privilege of citizenship.

[greatscott]

so I am just looking through the EEA(PR) form....

Our family non-EU dependants were issued with a piece of paper entitled 'Immigration Status Document' 'Residence Documentation' Valid until xx date 2017 (at the time not stamped in passport because I think we requested passports back to use while waiting for EEA2 approval). This has subsequently been used by them to re-enter the UK over the last 4.5 years without any issues.It has a photo, persons details, embossed official stamp...and is called 'Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National'....so this is then the PR Card, right?

So they do not now need to give Biometric information (on page 7, EEA(PR) form), right? as they are now applying (well, will be in 2017) for DCPR.

Seems like a dumb question but just want to be sure, thanks.

[noajthan]

so I am just looking through the EEA(PR) form....

Our family non-EU dependants were issued with a piece of paper entitled 'Immigration Status Document' 'Residence Documentation' Valid until xx date 2017 (at the time not stamped in passport because I think we requested passports back to use while waiting for EEA2 approval). This has subsequently been used by them to re-enter the UK over the last 4.5 years without any issues.It has a photo, persons details, embossed official stamp...and is called 'Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National'....so this is then the PR Card, right?

So they do not now need to give Biometric information (on page 7, EEA(PR) form), right? as they are now applying (well, will be in 2017) for DCPR.

Seems like a dumb question but just want to be sure, thanks.

That sounds like it is a residence card.
You would not have been given a PR card on initial entry, it takes 5 years time-served in UK to acquire PR.

It is not a confirmation of PR card (PRC).

Non-EEA nationals do have to give biometrics (again and again) - at the PR card stage. And at naturalisation stage.
HO wants to check and check again that it really really really is the same applicant at each stage of the game.

The PR form is clear, so don't skip the bio page, that's an instant #fail

Biometric information for non-EEA nationals
If you are a non-EEA national applying for a permanent residence card, you must give your biometric information (fingerprints and a digital photograph) before your application will be considered.

[Casa]

Has your question about KOLL been clarified? All adults (regardless of nationality/SS etc) are required to pass the Life in the UK test before applying for British citizenship.

[greatscott]

Thanks Noajthan, yes sorry RC, not PRC.
Good thing I asked...was going to chuck the Bio bit.
Casa, ok got that bit- will do that after the DCPR (acronym mania)- when we apply for passports.

[Casa]

Thanks Noajthan, yes sorry RC, not PRC.
Good thing I asked...was going to chuck the Bio bit.
Casa, ok got that bit- will do that after the DCPR (acronym mania)- when we apply for passports.

Not sure what you mean by 'when we apply for passports'?
The Life in the UK test is mandatory for British citizenship which comes before an application for a British passport which is a completely separate process.

Be aware that although you are fluent in English, the LIUK syllabus can require a considerable amount of study time, unless you're both proficient in answering questions on: The Values and principles of the UK", "What is the UK?", "A long and illustrious history", "A modern, thriving society" and "The UK government, the law and your role".

[greatscott]

Hi Casa
So for the non_EU dependants in our family the trajectory (Singh applicants) is:

We have RC, next step is PRC (after 5 years), then LIUK Test, then Citizenship, then Passports.

Whatever happens: after 5 years (in 2017) even if we go no further with the mountains of paperwork piling up next to us, we are automatically granted permanent residence (citizenship, passport or not).......right? So no-one can kick us out after 5 years if we just keep living here.....right?

Thanks for the heads up on LIUK. As long as we are all treated equally and fairly then we really can't ask for much more.

[noajthan]

Once UK leaves EU then EU concepts (such as PR, DCPR, PRC) will have no meaning. How could they?!

Between now and then 'somebody' will have to get busy and put some flesh on the macabre 'living dead' skeleton that is Brexit.

[greatscott]

Heeyaaa!, for sure, but I think our application should be in the clear...doubt they will manage to extract themselves by middle of next year.
Stranger things have happened though, they could just start ignoring eu law well before then, but somehow doubt it.....they are bound by eu law until the fat lady has well and truly sung...earliest say 2019?

[greatscott]

oh I see what you've said...... PRC should still hold post Brexit, surely. Its permanent residence, very hard to see how that could be renounced.

[noajthan]

oh I see what you've said...... PRC should still hold post Brexit, surely. Its permanent residence, very hard to see how that could be renounced.

My 2 Euros worth is PR will probably be transposed into something else, under UK law, eg ILR.

But how? because in practice it may not be so straightforward;
- only for DCPR and PRC holders? or for everyone who can prove they have acquired PR?
And what about those who nearly have PR.
Or only have a RC.
Or have lived here without papers for 20, 30, 40 years.

Its a veritable can of worms. Of the EU sort naturally, that is no shorter than 1cm and no longer than 10cms

And its a shame on the organisational and political abilities of this country that it wasn't clarified before the referendum.

[greatscott]

And its a shame on the organisational and political abilities of this country that it wasn't clarified before the referendum.

well, brexit wasn't supposed to happen, they thought it would be a slow canter to more of the same....but I knew it would happen, if only I put some money down I'd be rich, like a Leicester City bet..... but I was late for that too!!

[secret.simon]

Our under 21 child arrived 6 months later due to being held up by school and, through a separate application, also received RC.

Has the under-21 child gone over 21 by now?

Is s/he still dependent on you?

I believe that in the case of EEA citizens, while children 21 and under are family members automatically, children over 21 have to demonstrate dependency to qualify as family members.

It may therefore be that if the child has turned 21, s/he will have to demonstrate dependency between the 21st birthday and the fifth anniversary of arrival in the UK, to qualify for PR.

I am not aware of these rules differ for SS routers, but I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong.

[greatscott]

Our under 21 child arrived 6 months later due to being held up by school and, through a separate application, also received RC.

Has the under-21 child gone over 21 by now?

Is s/he still dependent on you?

I believe that in the case of EEA citizens, while children 21 and under are family members automatically, children over 21 have to demonstrate dependency to qualify as family members.

It may therefore be that if the child has turned 21, s/he will have to demonstrate dependency between the 21st birthday and the fifth anniversary of arrival in the UK, to qualify for PR.

I am not aware of these rules differ for SS routers, but I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong.

Just re-read this, I think you are wrong? If the child was under 21 when entering the UK under Singh, then his status as a family member (non-eu dependant) should be preserved. I mean kids aged 16 and 17 when entering the UK can't somehow lose their status when applying for PRC just because they are now over 21 after their 5-year residency....surely not.