Will this be enough documentation?

[verdomme]

Hello, 13 year UK resident of Dutch nationality applying for a PR. If I have understood correctly, the documents for proof for 5 years concern the last 5 only and not the first 5. Based on this understanding, are these likely to be sufficient:

- letter from my employer (big UK company) I have been in full time employment in UK with them throughout my 13 years
- P60 for all 13 years
- payslips from 13 years (I plan to send one from each year, should I send more? all 70 or so?
- letter from HMRC showing my NI contribution record (it is the original but looks like a photocopy...!)

will this be documentation be sufficient?

Unfortunately all my utility bills, bank statements are electronic and the instructions say these would not count.

I do have council tax statements but only for the last 4 years, not for earlier years. Are these best included or will it raise questions about ones before 4 years?

[noajthan]

Hello, 13 year UK resident of Dutch nationality applying for a PR. If I have understood correctly, the documents for proof for 5 years concern the last 5 only and not the first 5. Based on this understanding, are these likely to be sufficient:

- letter from my employer (big UK company) I have been in full time employment in UK with them throughout my 13 years
- P60 for all 13 years
- payslips from 13 years (I plan to send one from each year, should I send more? all 70 or so?
- letter from HMRC showing my NI contribution record (it is the original but looks like a photocopy...!)

will this be documentation be sufficient?

Unfortunately all my utility bills, bank statements are electronic and the instructions say these would not count.

I do have council tax statements but only for the last 4 years, not for earlier years. Are these best included or will it raise questions about ones before 4 years?

Its not simply about the last 5 years.
You are not applying for 'PR'.
You are applying for confirmation of PR (DCPR) that you have acquired automatically.

You could have acquired PR after your first 5 years in UK, or after any continuous period of 5 years during which you were a qualified person.
So its not necessarily about the last 5 years.

Whatever the period you will need good documentary supporting evidence to support your case.
You need to prove id, exercise of treaty rights plus residence in UK and any absences within limits.

See https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

If you have ambitions for privilege of citizenship, having acquired PR status back in the day is beneficial for you (and you may have had PR since 2008 or 2009 based on your stated dates).

[verdomme]

Yes, OK, technically it is certification (confirmation) of the PR not 'applying' for it.

'It is not simply about the last 5 years'- what does this mean exactly? I know I met the conditions for PR confirmation 8 years ago after my first 5 years of continuous time in the UK. I did not apply then, I am applying now. Now that I am applying now, what 5 years are considered? I don't see any place the period can be chosen so I presume it is the last 5 years? Is that right?

'You need to prove id, exercise of treaty rights plus residence in UK and any absences within limits.'

prove id - I will submit my EU ID card
exersice of treaty rights plus residence in UK - how are these different for an EU national working in UK? Are the documents likely to suffice? Basically I don't have much confirming my address (utilities, etc.) but it is clear I have been a tax paying employed person.
absences - I will list them in the form. I'm not sure this is 'proof'.

I do plan to apply for citizenship. In light of this, can I choose earlier period? Where? How?

[noajthan]

Yes, OK, technically it is certification (confirmation) of the PR not 'applying' for it.

'It is not simply about the last 5 years'- what does this mean exactly? I know I met the conditions for PR confirmation 8 years ago after my first 5 years of continuous time in the UK. I did not apply then, I am applying now. Now that I am applying now, what 5 years are considered? I don't see any place the period can be chosen so I presume it is the last 5 years? Is that right?

'You need to prove id, exercise of treaty rights plus residence in UK and any absences within limits.'

prove id - I will submit my EU ID card
exersice of treaty rights plus residence in UK - how are these different for an EU national working in UK? Are the documents likely to suffice? Basically I don't have much confirming my address (utilities, etc.) but it is clear I have been a tax paying employed person.
absences - I will list them in the form. I'm not sure this is 'proof'.

I do plan to apply for citizenship. In light of this, can I choose earlier period? Where? How?

This is HO you're dealing with. Don't presume or assume anything.

There is no explicit question on the form asking which is the qualifying 5 years. (And, in general, how would you know. You/most applicants are probably not experts on EU law and the Directive).

You simply enter all info for your case and timeline; the caseworker determines if she will confirm you acquired PR.
That's it.

if you want to spoonfeed her you may add a cogent cover letter pointing out the period.
She may or may not concur - and it will depend on your evidence.

If you acquired PR over a year ago then when you get to naturalise you don't have to wait an additional year free of immigration time restrictions before applying for citizenship.
(assuming you are not married to British spouse, in which case 12 months delay does not apply anyway).

Again you don't specify the period, just provide your timeline and in your case, focus on an appropriate earlier period with your evidence of treaty rights.
But focus on complete period for your proof of residence ofcourse; you need to show if you had PR, by say 2008, that you didn't lose it again later (eg by absence since 2008).

So you can see the period (and evidence) for proof of treaty rights is not necessarily the same period (and evidence) as for proof of residence.

Yes, in first instance 'proof' of absences is the list you submit (plus associated docs showing residence).
Caseworker may dig deeper if she wishes to do so.
You also vouch for the veracity of all the information submitted in the Declaration that you sign on the form.

[verdomme]

So, basically, it is best to write a cover letter summarising the timelines. OK got it.

I know citizenship requires an additional year of residence following PR certification. Your first post made it seem as if there would be a huge difference (easier to get citizenship) if it was a long period such as my 8 years.

Anyway, how likely do you believe are the documents I have listed to be successful? I do have more than the minimum 2 per year in the instructions but I don't have any real world experience as this is my first time doing this. Is providing all payslips or just a selection best?

[noajthan]

So, basically, it is best to write a cover letter summarising the timelines. OK got it.

I know citizenship requires an additional year of residence following PR certification. Your first post made it seem as if there would be a huge difference (easier to get citizenship) if it was a long period such as my 8 years.

Anyway, how likely do you believe are the documents I have listed to be successful? I do have more than the minimum 2 per year in the instructions but I don't have any real world experience as this is my first time doing this. Is providing all payslips or just a selection best?

Its not a year of holding PR certification its a year of PR status.
So if you really acquired PR in 2008/9 you've had PR for 7+ years already.

It doesn't make citizenship easier (you still have to meet all requirements to naturalise), it may make it quicker.
And with all the wild talk of Brexit that can't be bad.

You don't need every payslip, jut a sample.

You could work on additional proof of residence:
council tax bills, voter registration, medical documentation (NHS, doctor, dentist & etc), driver's license, various insurance docs (car, home etc);

[verdomme]

I have met the 5+1 for citizenship once I receive PR certification. I agree it can't hurt to be 5+8.

I will submit 3-4 payslips for each year, this seems plenty as a sample considering I am also submitting P60 for each year.

I live mostly digitally and minimally so I don't keep around old documentation that isn't critical. I do have council tax going back 6-7 years it seems but not much else. My documentation is rock solid in terms of salary/tax in UK but not very detailed in residential/living other than council tax. No bank, utilities, insurance, NHS, etc.

One thing I was particularly careful and eager to get right was the physical presence requirement which seems to be the single major surprise reason for rejection. I am talking about being in the country on the exact day from which the 5 years is counted. If the 5 years isn't necessarily counting back from the date HO receive my application for certification (this was my understanding reading forum and hints) then will they make sure to choose a date I was not absent from UK?

In particular, I was out of the UK most of October 2011 and based on my understanding previous to your answers, I was aiming to time the receipt by HO to coincide with a day I was definitely in the UK five years ago to the day. Is this not necessary? Or is this still necessary regardless although the 5 year period may be earlier then the last 5 depending on HO case worker's assessment (or mood)?

[noajthan]

I have met the 5+1 for citizenship once I receive PR certification. I agree it can't hurt to be 5+8.

I will submit 3-4 payslips for each year, this seems plenty as a sample considering I am also submitting P60 for each year.

I live mostly digitally and minimally so I don't keep around old documentation that isn't critical. I do have council tax going back 6-7 years it seems but not much else. My documentation is rock solid in terms of salary/tax in UK but not very detailed in residential/living other than council tax. No bank, utilities, insurance, NHS, etc.

One thing I was particularly careful and eager to get right was the physical presence requirement which seems to be the single major surprise reason for rejection. I am talking about being in the country on the exact day from which the 5 years is counted. If the 5 years isn't necessarily counting back from the date HO receive my application for certification (this was my understanding reading forum and hints) then will they make sure to choose a date I was not absent from UK?

In particular, I was out of the UK most of October 2011 and based on my understanding previous to your answers, I was aiming to time the receipt by HO to coincide with a day I was definitely in the UK five years ago to the day. Is this not necessary? Or is this still necessary regardless although the 5 year period may be earlier then the last 5 depending on HO case worker's assessment (or mood)?

The physical presence requirement is for naturalisation not DCPR; it is enshrined in legislation and is not negotiable.

Pro tip: whether or not you live digitally, HO does not. And HO calls the shots.
Look ahead to next application you will make (and the next - eg passport), and engineer your life to generate a papertrail; whether you want the paper for any other reason or not.

You should also be making connections and and cultivating contacts so you have candidate referees lined up for when you need them.

It all avoids or helps minimises all this last-minute angst and hassles.

[verdomme]

Thanks, did not know the physical presence rule was only for naturalisation. It means I don't have to time my PR post as precisely. That's good.

Yes, I know HO calls the shots. I understand HO wants original physical copies. I was trying to understand what is acceptable within their judgment based on experience, that is what this forum is for, is it not?

I don't have "angst", just queries. I would rather get it right first time by not missing something silly somewhere.

I see your point on usefulness of paper documentation and managing this like a project, but that is not much use for me now for the immediate PR step.

[noajthan]

Thanks, did not know the physical presence rule was only for naturalisation. It means I don't have to time my PR post as precisely. That's good.

Yes, I know HO calls the shots. I understand HO wants original physical copies. I was trying to understand what is acceptable within their judgment based on experience, that is what this forum is for, is it not?

I don't have "angst", just queries. I would rather get it right first time by not missing something silly somewhere.

I see your point on usefulness of paper documentation and managing this like a project, but that is not much use for me now for the immediate PR step.

You may not have angst (that may come later); many members do - and this topic is for them too.

You will have naturalisation and then passport applications in the pipeline - suggest start killing some trees.

[verdomme]

Hopefully no angst in future. I can certainly see how the process can cause anxiety so some, I am fairly relaxed, must be Dutch mentality.

PR is a lot of paperwork so I agree on hassle. In hindsight, I wish I had applied before PR certification was necessary for EEA nationals. I have a funny feeling I am applying at the most difficult time as after Brexit, once it happens, I imagine the process would be made more efficient for long settled EEA nationals. Just a guess, we don't know of course.

Naturalisation requirements seem easier to me. Your point on killing trees is taken and I wish I had a time machine but after PR certification, which I understand must be minimum 10 years validity according to EU rules, the requirement for naturalisation does not involve such exhaustive documentation of residence all over again. Does it? Isn't it mainly an issue of staying below absences?