Him UK, Her Russian, Holland move > UK > Smiles

[rum23]

Hi,
This relates to Surrinder Singh route in to UK....
I am pretty lost and confused by it all and quite possibly about to have a nervous breakdown!


I am British born and my wife is Russian born.
We met earlier this year and married recently in Europe.
Her UK Visa had expired but she currently has Schengen Visa so we have been meeting up all over Europe.
(She was reluctant to apply for UK Visa before we were married as stories in Russia suggest people are
being randomly refused and even black listed from re-applying; relations aren't good between the 2 countries apparently.)

We don't qualify for UK Spouse Visa - long story!!

All of a sudden I have a new job which is taking me to Netherlands in 2 weeks time.
I expect to be there for 1 year in full time employment. I will rent a room, get a phone number, pay tax,
open a bank account, become a member of community and essentially "transfer my center of life".

However, Question 1 - I do need to return to the UK every 2-4 weeks on business and to see me son.
I will only be returning for 2 days per week, the other 5 will be spent in Netherlands.
Does this affect my Surrinder Singh plan ?? "O and B v Netherlands" case suggests I am Ok to return to UK?


Question 2 - Does my wife HAVE to be in Netherlands with me for the minimum 3 months?
Can she return to Russia every few weeks for example?
Would it look better if she was with me the entire time?
Would it look even better if she worked in Netherlands with me??
When we both come to UK, I can only assume UKBA would have no idea whether she has been in
Netherlands or Russia?? Or would UKBA have access to her overseas travel history?? (wouldn't surprise me!)

The main reason for asking Q2 is that my wife has already spend a lot of time in Europe lately and her Schengen visa only allows 90 days out of Russia every 6 months. It is inevitable that she will have to return to Russia or risk breaking the law on a technicality...


Question 3 - after 3/4 months when we are ready to return to UK - what do we do??
Do we simply get on a plane, arrive in UK and explain we are doing the Surrinder Singh when we
get to Passport Control??
Do we have to submit any paperwork to UK while living in Europe before travelling?


Question 4 - When we reach the UK mainland - is it the absolute law that they have to permit her entry to UK for the time being and we then have to apply for indefinite leave to remain? They then assess our situation?
Or can she be refused and have to return to Netherlands or Russia that day?
Or do we automatically qualify for Surrinder Singh as I have been abroad for 3months?
Or are we likely to have to spend hours at immigration being quizzed separately and having all our documents scrutinized?


Any help appreciated...
Thanks

[Wanderer]

I'd go with 9-12 months before re-entering UK, 3 months not enough.

[noajthan]

Hi,
This relates to Surrinder Singh route in to UK....
...

However, Question 1 - I do need to return to the UK every 2-4 weeks on business and to see me son.
I will only be returning for 2 days per week, the other 5 will be spent in Netherlands.
Does this affect my Surrinder Singh plan ?? "O and B v Netherlands" case suggests I am Ok to return to UK?


Question 2 - Does my wife HAVE to be in Netherlands with me for the minimum 3 months?
Can she return to Russia every few weeks for example?
Would it look better if she was with me the entire time?
Would it look even better if she worked in Netherlands with me??
When we both come to UK, I can only assume UKBA would have no idea whether she has been in
Netherlands or Russia?? Or would UKBA have access to her overseas travel history?? (wouldn't surprise me!)

The main reason for asking Q2 is that my wife has already spend a lot of time in Europe lately and her Schengen visa only allows 90 days out of Russia every 6 months. It is inevitable that she will have to return to Russia or risk breaking the law on a technicality...


Question 3 - after 3/4 months when we are ready to return to UK - what do we do??
Do we simply get on a plane, arrive in UK and explain we are doing the Surrinder Singh when we
get to Passport Control??
Do we have to submit any paperwork to UK while living in Europe before travelling?


Question 4 - When we reach the UK mainland - is it the absolute law that they have to permit her entry to UK for the time being and we then have to apply for indefinite leave to remain? They then assess our situation?
Or can she be refused and have to return to Netherlands or Russia that day?
Or do we automatically qualify for Surrinder Singh as I have been abroad for 3months?
Or are we likely to have to spend hours at immigration being quizzed separately and having all our documents scrutinized?

Any help appreciated...
Thanks

1) Continuity of residence (in Netherlands) is not broken by an absence of less than 6 months in a 12 month period.
You could spend up to 3.5 days a week back in UK.

2) Spouse needs to be with you in Netherlands.
You have to prove where wife is
Its optional whether wife works.

If there's no (or inadequate) proof of any part of this sojourn in NL then subsequent application in UK will fail

You need proof of:

• identities;
  relationship;
  your exercise of treaty rights;
  both your residencies in NL;
  absences (from NL) within limits;

That's rock-solid (if not unimpeachable) documentary supporting evidence that is required for every step of the way.

Once in Netherlands, treaty rights kick in so forget about the Schengen visa. That's not what keeps wife in NL.
Wife's right to remain in Netherlands is derived from you as qualified person there.

3) Yes, in theory you can do that (but may be stressful at border, incurring questions, delays);
Or apply for a FP for wife (whilst still in Netherlands).
https://www.gov.uk/family-permit/surinder-singh

4) Nothing guaranteed. Even a UK visa does not guarantee entry into UK.

Don't take SS for granted.
3 months is too short; plan for a 6 or 9 months or a year-long gig.

This is not about ILR. The target is PR on EU route.
However due to Brexit there will not now be enough time for spouse to acquire PR in UK in the 'normal' way.

Yes, if you turn up on border (assuming you get on a flight) you may be refused at border and wife have to remain (wherever).
You will be quizzed. Take all docs (same as for a FP application) with you and present them.

FP helps with this, that's what its for (entrance into UK).
Don't take FP for granted either; sometimes they're not granted first (or second) time.

btw - there is no UKBA anymore (abolished in 2013).

[noajthan]

Get up to speed on free movement here:
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/ci ... nt_low.pdf

Inside story on Netherlands for SS-ers here:
http://britcits.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/ ... guide.html

[rum23]

Hi -thanks...

I need more info on the Treaty Rights part for her? Where can I find this?!

What happens if she tries to visit Russia after being in NL with me for 4/5months and has exceeded Schengen 90days rights?!? If she lands in Russia will they let her fly out to NL again??

[noajthan]

Hi -thanks...

I need more info on the Treaty Rights part for her? Where can I find this?!

What happens if she tries to visit Russia after being in NL with me for 4/5months and has exceeded Schengen 90days rights?!? If she lands in Russia will they let her fly out to NL again??

Read above links.

Read the Directive (2004/38/EC) if you wish; (google).

Once you are in NL, the Schengen visa is not active.
It is you exercising treaty rights in NL that covers wife in NL.
She may apply for an optional RC too.

Read the above

[rum23]

Sorry if I'm missing something.... but I don't understand..
Everything points to her needing a Visa and Schengen rules applying...

http://unitedkingdom.nlembassy.org/pass ... onals.html

Family member of an EU/EEA national who holds a different type of residence permit:
travelling with the EU/EEA national to the Netherlands: visa required.

When travelling to the Netherlands without the EU/EEA family member, regular Schengen visa procedures apply. This also applies to spouses/children of British nationals who do not hold a Residence Card as a Family Member of an EU/EEA National.

* Please note that EU nationals who have always lived in the country of their nationality are not exercising EU treaty rights and are therefore not considered Union citizens. Their family members therefore are not covered by the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC.

[noajthan]

Sorry if I'm missing something.... but I don't understand..
Everything points to her needing a Visa and Schengen rules applying...

...

You have misunderstood all that you quoted there.
That's only for entry.
You've already said wife has a Schengen visa. That will get her into NL.

Once you are in NL you are exercising free movement rights as a Union citizen.
And that applies to family members too - through you.

There is no visa required once you are both in NL. No visa for either of you.
That is the beauty and elegance of free movement.

Read this if nothing else:
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/doc ... 013_en.pdf

[ALKB]

Hi -thanks...

I need more info on the Treaty Rights part for her? Where can I find this?!

What happens if she tries to visit Russia after being in NL with me for 4/5months and has exceeded Schengen 90days rights?!? If she lands in Russia will they let her fly out to NL again??

While in theory it is optional for your wife to apply for a residence card, it is not practical not to do it, especially if she wants to visit Russia and return without fuss.

So. You move to the Netherlands, she travels to you on her current Schengen visa, you sort all the requirements in the Netherlands (probably registering both of your residence with the local authority, possibly proof of health insurance, etc.) then, after you receive your first payslip and payment of salary into your bank account, she can apply for a Residence Card for Family Members of EEA Nationals (valid 5 years).

The salary slip/bank statement will show that you are exercising EU treaty rights.

Processing times for residence cards can vary but should not exceed 6 months. Some member states seem to routinely max this out. It would be unwise to travel before RC is issued.

Don't forget that Brexit is looming and that nobody knows at this point what will then be required of people who have come to the UK under Surinder Singh.

[rum23]

Hi, so we have been living and I have been working in NL for some time now and my wife already
has her "Residence card for a family member of an EU citizen", issued by NL.

We are thinking of going to UK for a short visit to see friends and family - Entering UK as
the holder of an Article 10 Residence Card.

As I understand it, once we enter the UK my wife will have a UK visa which is valid for 6 months, right?
What will happen next when the 6 month visa expires and we are still living/working in NL not UK?
Will we have another 6 months visa extension or once the visa is issued do we need stat making plans to
move to the UK and stay there and change the NL residence permit for a UK one?

Thanks..

[gokulatti]

Hi, you and wife can travel with her dutch residence card while travelling together to the UK. On entry you might get a small stamp saying permitted under EEA law and it should say expires in 6 months from that date. It is not an entry clearance. If for the second time you travel together after the expiry of the first stamp you should get another one. I believe they are not even supposed to stick/stamp anything in her passport as the NL residence card essentially does it.

[rum23]

Ok, so what would the process be for returning permanently to the UK??
What will we have to apply for once we are living back in the UK?

Also, can my wife travel in and out of the UK without me? or from NL to other EU countries alone on
the NL RC?

Finally, is the Schenghen visa that is in her passpor still valid ??
Thanks

[gokulatti]

Ok, so what would the process be for returning permanently to the UK?? You need to invoke surinder singh, since your wife already has a article 10 residence permit and you have exercised your treaty rights, you are in a good spot, however I would suggest atleast 9-12 months being together in NL and then applying back in the UK after that, you can check the requirements in the UKBA website I believe. I am sure if you dig around the forum you will find more useful information on surinder singh.

What will we have to apply for once we are living back in the UK?
You will apply something similar to family member of EEA national like you did in NL but in your own country using surinder singh, This permit should be again an article 10 residence card under EU law.

Also, can my wife travel in and out of the UK without me? or from NL to other EU countries alone on
the NL RC?

To the UK, she can only travel in WITH you but can travel out on her own, although the law says "accompanying or joining the EU national" if you are already in UK and she is joining you in UK then authorities might question how you are exercising your treaty rights in NL while being in the UK, which is the basis of the NL card she has.

However, within the Schengen area she can travel in/out on her own whenever she wants while adhering to schengen rules, i.e. 90 days in any 180 day period. The residence card essentially acts as a schengen visa.

Finally, is the Schenghen visa that is in her passpor still valid ??
If you mean the entry visa issued for the first time, you do not have to worry about it since she has a 5 year residence card which is considered to be a schengen visa as well.

Thanks