Residency documents - Is TWO PER YEAR enough?

[Nele72]

Hi -

This is a fairly exotic one I think. Between 1997 and 2012 I worked full time and continuously for an EU Agency in London. I have all payslips, work contracts and letter from my employer. (From 2012 onwards I have been self employed and have all documents.)

However, since this is an international organisation, my pay was not subject to UK income tax and all social security benefits were paid into an EU scheme (I have evidence of this). I therefore have no P60s or tax returns.

I still believe I am a qualified person as I resided in the UK to work here. Now some bod at the Home Office help line told me my application could be refused as I cannot show that I 'contributed' NI or income tax.

But surely, if I weren't a qualified person (worker, self-employed, student, jobseeker) - what was I? Illegal? How can they not certify permanent residence if in fact I was here legally for 20 years?

I looked at the Directive and parliamentary notes that explain what a worker is - that work has to be 'genuine and effective', which this was. I earned ok money and have all other docs (bank statements etc. etc.). Nowhere in the Directive does it say that you are only a worker if you 'contribute'!

In fact, even a worker on a low income supplementing their work would be accepted.

I find this reasoning a bit bizarre and arbitrary. Is there anybody out there who knows? Or is in a similar situation?

Thanks!

[noajthan]

Welcome.

How ironic if you cannot prove your EU migration status because you actually worked for the EU.
But it should not come to that.

In this context, EU law and the Directive does not know or care about domestic, parochial tax regimes.
Lack of UK tax/NI does not result in instant refusal.
It may trigger further investigation and enquiries.

If you can furnish adequate documentary supporting evidence that you were a worker qualified person then all should be well.

You can get into the head of caseworker who will weigh up and assess your case here:
ttps://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/up ... _clean.pdf

For example see page 12+

Compliance with the requirement to pay tax and NI is a domestic matter for the UK authorities and failure to comply does not stop an EEA national from qualifying as a worker.

It would also be worth checking your original passport to see if you had got ILR on (or soon after) your initial entry to UK back in the day.

And do your blood pressure a favour, don't rely on UKVI helpline.

[Nele72]

Thanks so much for your response and thanks for the link - this is very clear and in line with what I thought.

I know, it would be rather ironic if I were turned down.

You're right. I couldn't find any legal document that specified that I had to 'contribute'. I took it that P60s were merely one of the ways of proving employment - the main way is employment contracts and payslips and bank statements. That's what I gathered.

Phew. I will not call them again for sure. Last time I asked them how many payslips they needed (as it just says 'payslips') and the response was: 'Enough to convince us.' This is NOT what you say to a German who is after a number!

[noajthan]

Thanks so much for your response and thanks for the link - this is very clear and in line with what I thought.

I know, it would be rather ironic if I were turned down.

You're right. I couldn't find any legal document that specified that I had to 'contribute'. I took it that P60s were merely one of the ways of proving employment - the main way is employment contracts and payslips and bank statements. That's what I gathered.

Phew. I will not call them again for sure. Last time I asked them how many payslips they needed (as it just says 'payslips') and the response was: 'Enough to convince us.' This is NOT what you say to a German who is after a number!

The answer is enough to avoid giving HO any wriggle room.
A 'belt and braces' strategy of complementary evidence is a good approach.
Then if something is not suitable or is otherwise disregarded another piece of evidence fills the gap.

And any luck with finding an ILR stamp in old passport?

[Nele72]

Nope no such stamp. My lawyer also says he only wants to submit docs from 2007 onwards (not 1997) for them to be more relevant, so any older passport would be out.

As for the docs, I have letter from employer, all work contracts (they were temporary), all payslips (they show all deductions at source, for example for sickness insurance, unemployment and pension) and corresponding private bank statements showing receipt of wages.

I also thought of supplementing some info on the social security side of things which is explained in the EU Staff Regulations but let's see what the lawyer thinks.

[noajthan]

Nope no such stamp. My lawyer also says he only wants to submit docs from 2007 onwards (not 1997) for them to be more relevant, so any older passport would be out.

As for the docs, I have letter from employer, all work contracts (they were temporary), all payslips (they show all deductions at source, for example for sickness insurance, unemployment and pension) and corresponding private bank statements showing receipt of wages.

I also thought of supplementing some info on the social security side of things which is explained in the EU Staff Regulations but let's see what the lawyer thinks.

Possession of ILR would negate need to apply for confirmation of PR.

Surprising lawyer was unable to allay your concerns around genuine/effective work.

[Nele72]

Well, I dealt with TWO lawyers to see which one I should pick!

The one I will go for didn't even budge and was positive and said that it should be fine.

But there was another one, very defeatist from the outset (she also got her information from the Home Office helpline, which makes you wonder why anybody would ever engage her).

She basically said 'they might turn it down' and 'they will not grant you permanent residence' and even I know it's not granted but confirmed.

When I said that all my contributions were deducted at source (i.e. not in the UK but into the EU scheme) she said that 'you didn't contribute! So it's basically as if you had just sat in an office in the UK and worked' - which is of course perfectly sums up being a qualified person in my view!

I have no clue why this should be so contentious. It would have never occurred to me. I worked. I can prove that I did. I was paid. It was not ancillary or marginal or non-efficacious. Maybe I'm just the trailblazer for all the defecting EU peeps!

[Nele72]

In fact @noajthan - would I not even qualify as self-sufficent? I had enough funds (i.e. salaries) AND a comprehensive sickness insurance with the EU ...

[noajthan]

In fact @noajthan - would I not even qualify as self-sufficent? I had enough funds (i.e. salaries) AND a comprehensive sickness insurance with the EU ...

Selfsufficiency may be another possible category.

Anyway there is no question on current PR form such as: what is your category?
or when was your qualifying period?

You simply collate and submit your timeline of activities together with documentary supporting evidence. Rock-solid evidence.
Caseworker will assess and weigh up to see if she will issue your confirmation.

Give it a whirl, what have you to lose apart from £65?!

[Nele72]

Indeed!

What - just out of interest - is non-'rock solid evidence'?

Other than documents, bank statements, employer letter, a fully bound copy, 92 pages, of the EU rules on which exact health insurance reimbursements/ceilings/billing modalities there are for every thinkable disease, a confirmation that I was part of this scheme from my employer ...

Where do people get it wrong in terms of providing evidence?

[noajthan]

Juat read the tales of woe and misfortune in forum.

[Nele72]

Hi -

just assembling documents for residency. They state that they want at least two per year from a variety of sources.

The variety of sources for me means related to one year, so it's not enough to send them two different bank statements but also at least one more thing.

I have three to five different ones for each year that I want to apply for but for one of the years only two different ones.

Plus I'm trying to get confirmation letters from banks/savings banks confirming I had an account between X & Y associated with the address.

It's driving me crazy, not knowing how much they want to see. When they say 'two' I would assume two is enough. 'At least two' starts to drive you nuts if you're a bit OCD like me .. is it three? Is it five?

Anybody here who only sent two and was successful with this???

Thanks!

Heike

[noajthan]

We recommend you submit at least 2 documents for each year of residence

- says it all really.

Take the tried and tested belt and braces approach; submit more then if one or two items fall by wayside you have an alternative already in the bundle.
After all why give HO the Spam of 'wriggle room'?!

[SRE]

Hi,

I am About to send the docs, but need to ask questions. In a section 18 document and evidence, in a paragraphs proof of residence UK there is list of documents to proof like utilities bills, bank statements, council letter, nhs letter, mortgage/tenancy agreement, etc.

Do I need to submit all this documents for proof of residence or I just submit what I have? Cos I don't have council letter (landlord pay that), nhs letter, I didn't have enough for 5 years since I don't like to see doctor if not emergency. Thanks.

[noajthan]

Hi,

I am About to send the docs, but need to ask questions. In a section 18 document and evidence, in a paragraphs proof of residence UK there is list of documents to proof like utilities bills, bank statements, council letter, nhs letter, mortgage/tenancy agreement, etc.

Do I need to submit all this documents for proof of residence or I just submit what I have? Cos I don't have council letter (landlord pay that), nhs letter, I didn't have enough for 5 years since I don't like to see doctor if not emergency. Thanks.

What you have. They are suggestions.
But its good practice to engineer your life to generate the necessary papertrail to meet requirements for this application (and the next) ahead of time in order to avoid last minute panics and scrambles.
And keep scans/copies of everything submitted to UKVI/HO. For ever.

[SRE]

What you have. They are suggestions.
But its good practice to engineer your life to generate the necessary papertrail to meet requirements for this application (and the next) ahead of time in order to avoid last minute panics and scrambles.
And keep scans/copies of everything submitted to UKVI/HO. For ever.

Ok, so they are suggestions. Thanks for your answers. Yes definitely need to makes copies of everything. Thanks.