Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) Extension refusal 245D(c)

[rafarox]

Samisosa,

I totally agree with Zimba that your chance to win on AR or challenge the case against HO is slim as you were granted to create a business, not to buy assets.

I understand where you're coming from. Your case is a little bit grey. But in the business point of view when you bought a petrol station and fixtures and goodwill. These are not considered as contributing or investing to the UK unless you put your money as an investor which is the requirement is different than £200k

On the other hand, you could argue that you have successfully created many jobs and these will be a lengthily case. I understand that this is your 100 percent business and your own it. But the HO will not see that as you paid to the previous owner directly or indirectly.

If you bought that petrol station and put your name under the company which the previous owner owned it. Then it would be different story as you are considered as a taking over business and therefore your investment would be considered as entrepreneur.

I have had empathy to you as your investment is a lot of money and the best way is to perhaps going to put as a fresh application.

I must also appreciate that Zimba has made a very clear point about this and hope others will learn from someone's mistake.

Thank you.

Hi All
My family of 6 is also effected by this 245Dc ii could you please clarify what is asset and buying a business is buying a business can be mixed with business asset and how you can mix with asset . every business has assets and in this world every assets has its current owner or previous owner or owner even stock has owner .
245Dcii is meaning of business and then investment then spent excluding few good will or buying a business and business mean sole trader , partnership or company where it is written commercial property is prohibited or you can not acquired .
in Para 46Sd (d) of immigration rule and para 140 of the policy and page 51 of the modernize guidance buying a property for business is allowed in tier 1 ent but i dont know reason best known to HO they are using 245Dcii FOR REFUSING GENUINE CASE AND if you go through the reason why this amendment or new law was applicable in July 2015 (completely) then you would know they are misusing this section of Law and no one can ask any thing . My whole family is disturb and migrated genuinely in 2012 now implicating this section of 2015 for extension purpose completely un reasonable and un acceptable .
our case scenario is different we bought only commercial property for our newly establish business from UK open Auction not any previous business as define in 245D or c but HO implicated the same section and refuse our case by saying that the buying business premises is not acceptable form of investment . our application is sole trader self employed.
there is one more point mentioned above to discuss is about taking over and buying the business kindly explain how taking over could be possible without buying in the new country or by new person or from where it is mentioned taking over business are allowed and available without money.
according to my understanding this section of 245Dc is complete contradiction with the on going policy where joining the business put the money is allowed at the same time purchase for business assets is not allowed and also allowed .
if HO dont want to allow the commercial property why dint they write simply any investment in business for commercial property is not allowed .
further more if you see the self employed direction which is a part of the policy mentioned of Govt Website explaining buying the business premises is long term commitment and useful for business .
my only question what we can do now to request HO to revise their orders on persons who arrived in 2012 when this section was not even exist and entrepreneurs have to start their business in six month time frame . As you all are very senior persons and this is my first note please reply for my understanding.

245Dc currently is main issue for tier1 you can see the visit on this article

Kind Regards

[sm12]

Rafarox,

Business buying property for commercial purposes is permitted I think.
What did they write exactly? That they did not accept as it's from previous owner?
There's a section in the guidance detailing investment in property.

[rafarox]

Rafarox,

Business buying property for commercial purposes is permitted I think.
What did they write exactly? That they did not accept as it's from previous owner?
There's a section in the guidance detailing investment in property.

Thank you for information can you please let us know which part of policy is explaining about commercial property investment .

[rafarox]

I mean do they expect us to build a petrol station form scratch!

No but you cannot buy a business and call yourself an entrepreneur. If you are interested in only investing in businesses, you can apply under Tier 1 Investor route

Hi Zimba88 and Robertholden could you please reply on my last post on 245Dc will be great full

[robertholdon]

Dear Rafarox,

I understand your frustration about this and how complicated this is for you. However, it won't get solved if we don't understand the whole picture about what's going on. Has your application got rejected?

The main objective of being Entrepreneur is to create business and expand a business or businesses. When it comes to property. It's a little bit tricky as the HO has different guidelines for what properties that you can or can't buy.

1. Suppose you buy a property from the auction and this property is a commercial property. Indeed, you are allowed to purchase this property as entrepreneur. You would be classified as investing in the UK if you run your business from that property. You might think why this is going to be classified as investing in the UK. If you run the business from that property. You would have to pay rates, insurance, licences, etc and this would be seen as running a business.

2. Suppose you buy a commercial property and rent the property out. Then this would be classified otherwise as this would not contribute to the UK economy.

3. In regard to your question about buying a business. There are two different criteria which the HO has specified. A) create a new business and B) Take over an existing business.

If you create a new business. that means you create it from scratch. You could buy fixtures or stocks or anything and this would be paid through the funds as a business.

If you take over an existing business. That means you need to join into that business and the business is still active and running.

If you buy a business and run that business from the beginning. That means you are considered neither creating a business nor taking over an existing business. Because the guidelines have specified that you are not allowed according to paragraph 2a5D(c) (ii) of the immigration Rules list what is excluded from being classed a invested funds 2a5D(c) (ii) states buying the business from a previous owner, where the money ultimately goes to the previous owner (irrespective of whether it is received or held directly or indirectly by that previous owner) rather than into the business being purchased ( this applies regardless of whether the money is channeled through the business en route to the previous owner, for example by mean of the applicant or business purchasing 'goodwill' or other asset which were previously part of the business)

If you buy a commercial property and run your business from that property. Then you'd need to have RCIS to value your property and submit that document as part of your investment. This is an independent valuer which is recognised in the UK.

Many rules applied by the HO that are not in favour of genuine entrepreneur.

my only question what we can do now to request HO to revise their orders on persons who arrived in 2012 when this section was not even exist and entrepreneurs have to start their business in six month time frame . As you all are very senior persons and this is my first note please reply for my understanding.

Unfortunately, when the government introduced this visa. it was very clear that entrepreneur would have to start the business in six months and many of us have made mistakes to comply with the guidelines or rules applied by the HO (including me).

This is an expensive learning but this is how it goes when it comes to business.

Hope this helps and Zimba might be able to add more or correct me if i have explained this incorrectly.

Thank you

[rafarox]

Dear Robertholden
Yes completely frustrated but we genuinely invested and migrated on 200k category finally received 75 points from 95 points HO deducted 20 points of attribute A by mentioning 245dc ii as they do not accept the purchase of commercial premises for our business .

My only question from this forum can HO twist the matter and put false or non related law for refusing the tier 1 case .

We did not bought any business

Reason why I am saying this because if you go through legal term business means sole trader partnership and company Ltd nothing else and 245D is only about meaning of business . And
The goodwill of above or assets of above business.

Therefore buying a business means buying any of above . Regarding the activity trading or nature of firm or business law is completely silent .

Question is that
How they implicate direct asset buying for own business or business expense into 245Dc ii this I need to understand logically and legally or how they can use this term buying business from previous owner which does not make any sense.


The main objective of being Entrepreneur is to create business and expand a business or businesses.
My question
Then what about the other purpose of this policy and the purpose of the policy came in 2015 on the other hand they took the money and made commitments in 2012 no one can question.

When it comes to property. It's a little bit tricky as the HO has different guidelines for what properties that you can or can't buy.
Guide lines have no say or right against rule when the matter in court or refuse rule need to follow I think this is illegal or misguidance about commercial property purchase question is that where in rule it is written .

1. Suppose you buy a property from the auction and this property is a commercial property. Indeed, you are allowed to purchase this property as entrepreneur. You would be classified as investing in the UK if you run your business from that property. You might think why this is going to be classified as investing in the UK. If you run the business from that property. You would have to pay rates, insurance, licences, etc and this would be seen as running a business.
Question
We have exactly same situation and every thing which you mentioned but they refused with only remarks purchase premises is not acceptable 245dcii
My question is are your views based on some concrete evidence or any help can be taken or these are just your views .

2. Suppose you buy a commercial property and rent the property out. Then this would be classified otherwise as this would not contribute to the UK economy.

You are right section 47 but that is for giving effect for residential properties but on the other hand this is completely wrong putting a commercial property on rent is a huge contribution in UK economy start from solicitor all repairs , roof , insurance , outside walls , and collection of rent then disputes etc then rental income is taxable income in Uk but you are right for this policy it may not be countable .

3. In regard to your question about buying a business. There are two different criteria which the HO has specified. A) create a new business and B) Take over an existing business.
Question
The third is joining a business
My question is meaning of business is mentioned above 3 things then how you take over sole trader you can only replace sole trader or buy out or in other cases you need to buy there is no such thing take over free .

If you create a new business. that means you create it from scratch. You could buy fixtures or stocks or anything and this would be paid through the funds as a business.
Question
You can create any business any time business means above 245D
As far as I know the creation in this policy is only for 2 Jobs which is the second main purpose business means as mentioned above nothing else. If so or otherwise please clarify so I can understand
Other things they have mentioned trading activities or etc


If you take over an existing business. That means you need to join into that business and the business is still active and running.
Question
Isn't is the same thing . How and why you take over from previous owner of business

Now you tell me buying a business could result takeover or otherwise

If you buy a business and run that business from the beginning. That means you are considered neither creating a business nor taking over an existing business. Because the guidelines have specified that you are not allowed according to paragraph 2a5D(c) (ii) of the immigration Rules list what is excluded from being classed a invested funds 2a5D(c) (ii) states buying the business from a previous owner, where the money ultimately goes to the previous owner (irrespective of whether it is received or held directly or indirectly by that previous owner) rather than into the business being purchased ( this applies regardless of whether the money is channeled through the business en route to the previous owner, for example by mean of the applicant or business purchasing 'goodwill' or other asset which were previously part of the business)

If you buy a commercial property and run your business from that property. Then you'd need to have RCIS to value your property and submit that document as part of your investment. This is an independent valuer which is recognised in the UK.
Question
We exactly did this but RICS is only required when there is any residential element in that property other wise no RICS as far I know .


Many rules applied by the HO that are not in favour of genuine entrepreneur.
Question can any one do any thing or just as silent we shifted our hard earn money all real and we are from country where one kilo Apple we buy from store after checking all

no Problem HO taken our money but there must be any way to express our views may be court I don't know about UK court do they honestly decide matters or listen to Ho only??



Hope this helps and Zimba might be able to add more or correct me if i have explained this

[sm12]

Rafarox
Did you provide evidence of direct cash investment in business? Or did you purchase the property directly?

[zimba]

HO is effectively protecting the Tier 1E route for individuals who want to practice entrepreneurship (build a business and grow it) and preventing it from becoming poor man's investor route. There is already an investor Tier 1 route which requires min of £2m investment. Why such route exists if someone can simply invest as low as 200K and get almost the same rights to remain in the UK ?? Surely the rules must somehow differentiate between someone who wants to practice entrepreneurship versus someone who simply wants to invest.

The tier 1E route is designed for people who want to build and invest in a business and take more risks. That is the main reason why the investment threshold is low and often rules require your investment to have no security or guarantee and be in favour of 3rd parties (e.g the requirement for unsecured director's loan)

An entrepreneur requires investment to get the business up and running and grow it further and accept the risk of losing it all. An investor carefully put his money in someone else's business, buys commodities or property and in return enjoys the capital appreciation.

If you purchase a business from the previous owner, you have not invested in that business. You simply paid the money to the previous owner to benefit from its future growth or sales. From immigration point of view, your money was not used to grow and maintain the business but simply used to mitigate a lot of the business risks invoked and purchase security. You can take over a business by purchasing it but immigration rules require you to show that you have injected money in that business instead of simply paying to acquire it.

The same logic applies to property. Purchasing a property in the hope of getting a better resale price or rent is what an investor does and is not considered entrepreneurship. Money spent that way was not used in your business but went to someone else's pocket. According to the rules, this is considered property development and such investment is not acceptable for award of points under Tier 1E route:

“investment and business activity” does not include investment in any residential accommodation, property development or property management, and must not be in the form of a director’s loan unless it is unsecured and subordinated in favour of the business. “Property development or property management” in this context means any development of property owned by the applicant or his business to increase the value of the property with a view to earning a return either through rent or a future sale or both, or management of property (whether or not it is owned by the applicant or his business) for the purposes of renting it out or resale. The principle is that the business income must be generated from the supply of goods and/or services, and not derived from the increased value of property or any income generated from property, such as rent.

[rafarox]

Rafarox
Did you provide evidence of direct cash investment in business? Or did you purchase the property directly?

yes we provided up to date bank statement and bank letter moreover between 2012 to 2105 before 245dc they used to check every tier1 ent accounts money arrived or not if not they were cancelling visas this what i heard at that time or any foreign transaction which arrive in your account given knowledge to all authorities.
regards

[rafarox]

HO is effectively protecting the Tier 1E route for individuals who want to practice entrepreneurship (build a business and grow it) and preventing it from becoming poor man's investor route. There is already an investor Tier 1 route which requires min of £2m investment. Why such route exists if someone can simply invest as low as 200K and get almost the same rights to remain in the UK ?? Surely the rules must somehow differentiate between someone who wants to practice entrepreneurship versus someone who simply wants to invest.
REPLY


in 2012 investor route was 1m and you also said you got the visa even not spending whole required investment how ? for your information property investment is not allowed in investor category it is only available in tier 1 ent . any way we took the 90 time risk by making our investment as business and coming to UK according to tier 1 policy


The tier 1E route is designed for people who want to build and invest in a business and take more risks. That is the main reason why the investment threshold is low and often rules require your investment to have no security or guarantee and be in favour of 3rd parties (e.g the requirement for unsecured director's loan)


REPLY

buying property from UK auction itself a huge risk and normal person can not think about it and after crossing all UK property sellers cheaters triks then establish own business and its affairs is another most achieving points and only risk taker can do that specially entrepreneur in UK business rates pest control health safety issues etc etc are not easy thing to maintain and no guarantees your property could be sold by authorities .

what is unsecured loan it is just one paper you made company in 25 pound and put money in it but true that is acceptable in HO .

An entrepreneur requires investment to get the business up and running and grow it further and accept the risk of losing it all. An investor carefully put his money in someone else's business, buys commodities or property and in return enjoys the capital appreciation.

property is not allowed in investor see rule 67 investor has other more financial options our case is what is business in 245DcII and why HO is implicating 245 dc ii to other purchase without any buying a business


If you purchase a business from the previous owner, you have not invested in that business. You simply paid the money to the previous owner to benefit from its future growth or sales. From immigration point of view, your money was not used to grow and maintain the business but simply used to mitigate a lot of the business risks invoked and purchase security. You can take over a business by purchasing it but immigration rules require you to show that you have injected money in that business instead of simply paying to acquire it.


then how can you take over if you dont purchase ok please clarify business first and activity second .If you buy commercial property for you business from auction how it can come buying the business from previous owner or 245Dc ii


The same logic applies to property. Purchasing a property in the hope of getting a better resale price or rent is what an investor does and is not considered entrepreneurship. Money spent that way was not used in your business but went to someone else's pocket. According to the rules, this is considered property development and such investment is not acceptable for award of points under Tier 1E route:

we did not bought any residential property we only bought commercial premises from auction to run our business . where banks and other receivers are selling with no business why people sell in auction. who buy from the auction the risk taker. No body can run the business without input money specially in UK we came in 2012 yes cheater or sweet talker may be can both these qualities are not found in us . and you can not trust in UK we trusted one company and give us life time experience.

“investment and business activity” does not include investment in any residential accommodation, property development or property management, and must not be in the form of a director’s loan unless it is unsecured and subordinated in favour of the business. “Property development or property management” in this context means any development of property owned by the applicant or his business to increase the value of the property with a view to earning a return either through rent or a future sale or both, or management of property (whether or not it is owned by the applicant or his business) for the purposes of renting it out or resale. The principle is that the business income must be generated from the supply of goods and/or services, and not derived from the increased value of property or any income generated from property, such as rent.

https://www.gov.uk/renting-buying-business-premises

this is written in policy guidance Registration as self-employed
A24. A person setting up as self-employed must register as such with HMRC within 6 months of
starting up. For more information on the legal requirements see the Business and Self- employed
section of gov.uk.

so we bought the commercial property for our business as self employed sole trader what illegal and 245dc ii affect this if so then why page 73 of the guidance still require to follow the instruction or to complete the legal requirement .


Hi Zimba88 and all
for your experience sharing i further clarify in your reply i need help to sort out our issue or the persons who gone through 245dcii only please also provide some law page number or policy reference quote in your reply .

kind regards

[zimba]

in 2012 investor route was 1m and you also said you got the visa even not spending whole required investment how ? for your information property investment is not allowed in investor category it is only available in tier 1 ent . any way we took the 90 time risk by making our investment as business and coming to UK according to tier 1 policy

You can invest 25% of your investment in assets under Tier 1 investor route if you entered the route before 6 November 2014. None of the Tier 1 immigration categories is designed for migrants to invest in the property market at all.
Under Tier 1E money does not need to be fully spent for award of points (I spent most of it) Because you spent it all, that does not mean you will be given extra points. No one argues that you took no risks, but immigration rules require you to invest money in certain way and you did not.

buying property from UK auction itself a huge risk and normal person can not think about it and after crossing all UK property sellers cheaters triks then establish own business and its affairs is another most achieving points and only risk taker can do that specially entrepreneur in UK business rates pest control health safety issues etc etc are not easy thing to maintain and no guarantees your property could be sold by authorities .what is unsecured loan it is just one paper you made company in 25 pound and put money in it but true that is acceptable in HO .

This is irrelevant. What constitutes investment under immigration rules does not need to necessarily match with the broadly accepted definition of investment as we know it. You are trying to satisfy the immigration rules for your visa, not to prove that you effectively invested in something commercial and therefore entitled to such recognition under immigration rules.

our case is what is business in 245DcII and why HO is implicating 245 dc ii to other purchase without any buying a business

Example: Purchase a business with 100K and invest another 200K to qualify. No one said you are not allowed to purchase a business, immigration rules simply do NOT recognise such expenditure as valid investment for the award of points.

then how can you take over if you dont purchase ok please clarify business first and activity second .If you buy commercial property for you business from auction how it can come buying the business from previous owner or 245Dc ii

You are mixing two things. HO is not saying you bought a previous business, the logic is that your money never entered your business.

we did not bought any residential property we only bought commercial premises from auction to run our business . where banks and other receivers are selling with no business why people sell in auction. who buy from the auction the risk taker. No body can run the business without input money specially in UK we came in 2012 yes cheater or sweet talker may be can both these qualities are not found in us . and you can not trust in UK we trusted one company and give us life time experience.

Again, you must satisfy the rules for your extension and show you injected cash in your business but you didn't. It is irrelevant that buying a commercial property in an auction is a normal business practice.
The clause in the rules I quoted covers all property including residential accommodation

[robertholdon]

Dear Rafarox,

I totally agree with Zimba. It's well explained. Can you tell whether you bought the property under your personal account or business bank account?

If we want to debate about the rules and policy applied by the HO. Then it's not going to be nice for others who are trying to help you here.

We are all on the same boat here and try our best to do as an entrepreneur. Many of them have spent a lot of money to learn about this and we could say that it's an expensive mistake (like mine).

Instead of debating or thinking to satisfy about the rules, why dont you think how you can solve this problem.

If you are being rejected as per what you have stated. AR is the only option. Then if you're not satisfied with that, then you can pursue to the JR which it would take a while.

[quote]Hi Zimba88 and all
for your experience sharing i further clarify in your reply i need help to sort out our issue or the persons who gone through 245dcii only please also provide some law page number or policy reference quote in your reply .[/quote]

Zimba has explained the whole thing correctly and i dont think i need to add more as it is really clear.

Thank you

[rafarox]

You are mixing two things. HO is not saying you bought a previous business, the logic is that your money never entered your business.

1 They are not only saying they issued refusal in writing 245 dc ii with mentioning buying the business from the previous owner without any evidence by ignoring auction receipt

2 please explain how the money of sole trader / self employed inter into business then buy the premises or you are saying buying commercial premises for your business is not allowed ? i could not understand .

Tier 1(Entrepreneur) Policy Guidance version 04/2016 - Page 47

If you have bought property for your business which includes residential accommodation, we will not accept the value of this part of the property as investment in the business.

Why you accepting other part of the property ? why because it is commercial usage ? or otherwise please let me know

question meaning of business is 245 D and for sole trader mainly do business from personal bank account therefore SD documents of sole trader is personal bank account and other SD documents are entirely different from others .

It is irrelevant that buying a commercial property in an auction is a normal business practice.
The clause in the rules I quoted covers all property including residential accommodation

who will define and acknowledge normal business practice
they did not told how to do business with your own money or 2012 they just asked please come if you have and can invest 200k in UK still to date if you see first lines of table 5 and 6 .

That reply i am looking for legally or this is just forcible illegal law the normal business practice is entirely different from the immigration requirement can you believe accountant in UK which are mentioned in the policy make jokes when you say please write this in notes or balance sheet or your number when you sign with full name although it looks normal things
or if they have any pre design business practice or plan why dont they clearly include in the policy so people can adopt why they are affecting families and giving loss to genuine migrant .

If you see October 2012 policy you will be in shock and upside down changes and the persons who are sitting in the call center always said that changes will not affect old arrivals but when you get refusal and after spending your money then you realize you have been ____. not only you actually your whole family.
my question is still there please let me know under what capacity 245Dc ii implicate on buying a commercial property itself or only High court will interpret this law 245d c ii

As buying the business premises is long term commitment evidence buy UK Govt and mandatory to follow the instruction in policy what is your comment on this below evidence Zimba88

https://www.gov.uk/renting-buying-business-premises

this is written in policy guidance Registration as self-employed
A24. A person setting up as self-employed must register as such with HMRC within 6 months of
starting up. For more information on the legal requirements see the Business and Self- employed
section of gov.uk.

so we bought the commercial property for our business as self employed sole trader what illegal and 245dc ii affect this if so then why page 73 of the guidance still require to follow the instruction or to complete the legal requirement .
kind regards

[rafarox]

First I really appreciate all and your guidance

I totally agree with Zimba. It's well explained. Can you tell whether you bought the property under your personal account or business bank account?

one personal and other business sole trader can use personal account and can do as many business from personal accounts

If we want to debate about the rules and policy applied by the HO. Then it's not going to be nice for others who are trying to help you here.

please do not think other way actually the rule and law will really help in further process otherwise we all can not do any thing for each other.

We are all on the same boat here and try our best to do as an entrepreneur. Many of them have spent a lot of money to learn about this and we could say that it's an expensive mistake (like mine).

yes agreed

Instead of debating or thinking to satisfy about the rules, why dont you think how you can solve this problem.
please advise and explore 245Dcii

If you are being rejected as per what you have stated. AR is the only option. Then if you're not satisfied with that, then you can pursue to the JR which it would take a while.

ok i am preparing for JR

Zimba has explained the whole thing correctly and i dont think i need to add more as it is really clear.

i really appreciate Zimba 88 explanation but i need his further guidance to sort out 245Dc ii.

Thank you

Kind Regards

[robertholdon]

Rafarox,

[quote](ii) ‘Invested’ or ‘spent’ excludes spending on:
(1) the applicant’s own remuneration,
(2) buying the business from a previous owner, where the money ultimately goes to that previous owner (irrespective of whether it is received or held directly or indirectly by that previous owner) rather than into the business being purchased (This applies regardless of whether the money is channelled through the business en route to the previous owner, for example by means of the applicant or business purchasing ‘goodwill’ or other assets which were previously part of the business.),
(3) investing in businesses, other than those which the applicant is running as self-employed or as a director, and
(4) any spending which is not directly for the purpose of establishing or running the applicant’s own business or businesses.[/quote]

If you can provide the evidence that those rules were not there when you first your initial application which i doubt it. Then your JR is likely to your favour as it might be not applied to you.

The rules applied on Tier 1 Entrepreneur is for the business and grow the business. Buying property either commercial or residential would have intangible values which it would be seen as profitable even though you do or dont run the business from the property. As what Zimba has explained earlier that you want to invest the funds in different form of investment such as property or others. then Tier 1 Investor is appropriate.

I do understand where you're coming from and the way that you think about this. But the rules applied by the HO are not normally how it operates in real life.

We all understand that the HO sometimes is unable to understand their own policy. It is because of the CW that doesnt understand the whole thing.

The main objective of 245Dc is to make sure that you are genuine entrepreneur that want to invest and grow the business in the UK. The HO does not want you to spend money that is eventually going to the third party person.

Also, you mentioned about assets and stocks. If you have the business and let's say buy printer from a shop and this is purchased through your business account. Then this would be classified as assets.

If you buy a business including with the equipments. These fixtures would be not classified as assets although in real life it is classified as assets. But the different between both is one has the previous owner and the other one is from the shop which means it is part of your business.

Put it simple. B to B is fine but P to B then it is no good.

Also, if you want to reply under someone's comment. It would be good if you could quote or reply using different way as it is confusing to read from what you have written.

Thank you.

[rafarox]

[

quote="robertholdon"]Rafarox,

(ii) ‘Invested’ or ‘spent’ excludes spending on:
(1) the applicant’s own remuneration,
(2) buying the business from a previous owner, where the money ultimately goes to that previous owner (irrespective of whether it is received or held directly or indirectly by that previous owner) rather than into the business being purchased (This applies regardless of whether the money is channelled through the business en route to the previous owner, for example by means of the applicant or business purchasing ‘goodwill’ or other assets which were previously part of the business.),
(3) investing in businesses, other than those which the applicant is running as self-employed or as a director, and
(4) any spending which is not directly for the purpose of establishing or running the applicant’s own business or businesses.

If you can provide the evidence that those rules were not there when you first your initial application which i doubt it. Then your JR is likely to your favour as it might be not applied to you.

Thankyou robertholdon for helping lets only sort-out this 245Dc ii

BUT THE QUESTION IS HOW IT HELPS THEY WILL SAY THE MEDICAL FEE WAS NOT BEFORE WHY YOU ARE PAYING NOW . NOW YOU NEED TO FOLLOW NEW RULE ALTHOUGH THE HO CALL CENTER ALWAYS SAID NO IT WONT AFFECT YOU AND WE BELIEVE ON THEM THIS IS OUR SECOND BIG MISTAKE WE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN SOME THING IN WRITING WE HAVE CALLS RECORD BUT NOT IN WRITING.

we arrived 2012 we invested before april 2014 when only meaning of business was born c ii part was not even existed and you need to establish not to create any business although creation is very easy establishing s very hard.( meaning of business you know)

The purpose of the route started came in 2014 april and completed in july 2015 on the other hand they took the money and made commitments in 2012 this is guaranteed that 245d c ii is not even exist till in April 2015 it is complete science about this section how when and why this started .

Talking about 245d c ii first they start the new rule slowly and gradually they change and input there required words and then make the new sentence which was never debated and passed by the parliament but new rule is part of law .


we dont mind if they use these things for non genuine persons or fake entrepreneur who never brought any money neither contributed any money in economy .

This is completely un fair and un just a family fully contributed and completed their terms with all documents and you are also accepting the investment but refusing them with false section just because you are powerful authority and do not want to respect genuine migrants this is what we want to explain . no one in this world 100 % perfect obviously we all are human being made mistake or error even if you do driving test they relax minor mistake .

our mistake was we our self submitted case which also was a bit complex and full of honesty and on high moral grounds with the hope that every things are genuine and completed they will accept but resulted otherwise.
the below is quote un quote of previous rule


2014 after april to july archive http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... chived.pdf
245D. Purpose of this route and meaning of business (a) This route is for migrants who wish to establish, join or take over one or more businesses in the UK. (b) For the purpose of paragraphs 245D to 245DF and paragraphs 35 to 53 of Appendix A 'business' means an enterprise as: (i) a sole trader, (ii) a partnership, or
(iii) a company registered in the UK. (c) Where paragraphs 245D to 245DF and paragraphs 35 to 53 of Appendix A, refer to money remaining available to the applicant until such time as it is spent for the purposes of his business or businesses: (i) 'Available' means that the funds are: (1) in the applicant’s own possession, (2) in the financial accounts of a UK incorporated business of which he is the director, or (3) available from the third party or parties named in the application under the terms of the declaration(s) referred to in paragraph 41-SD(b) of Appendix A. 12 (ii) 'Spent' excludes spending on: (1) the applicant’s own remuneration, (2) buying the business from a previous owner, where the money goes to that previous owner rather than into the business, (3) investing in other businesses, and (4) any spending which is not directly for the purpose of establishing or running the applicant’s own business or businesses.


http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... _04-14.pdf

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... MASTER.pdf

Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) Migrants
245D. Purpose of this route and meaning of business
(a) This route is for migrants who wish to establish, join or take over one or more businesses in the UK.
(b) For the purpose of paragraphs 245D to 245DF and paragraphs 35 to 53 of Appendix A 'business' means an enterprise as:
(i) a sole trader,
(ii) a partnership, or
(iii) a company registered in the UK
here it is finished this is 2013 may

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... es/part6a/

december 2012 although we arrive before

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... dance1.pdf

Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) Migrants
245D. Purpose of this route and meaning of business
(a) This route is for migrants who wish to establish, join or take over one or more businesses in the UK.
(b) For the purpose of paragraphs 245D to 245DF and paragraphs 35 to 53 of Appendix A 'business' means an enterprise as:
(i) a sole trader,
(ii) a partnership, or
(iii) a company registered in the UK.
now look this is finish line who wish to establish not create

Kind Regards

[robertholdon]

Rafarox,

Your case is not the only one here that has been rejected by the HO and you dont need to try satisfying all the rules applied by the HO. As i said previously that if you could provide all necessary evidence then you might argue this in court. When you send your application to the HO. It is your duty to honour all necessary information to support your case. If you did not provide any evidence of which rules that applied to you. Then the HO will only apply the latest rules to you. This does not mean that anyone can pick and match any rules whenever they like it.

i.e there's a rule that any dependant will have to apply a criminal record. This has never been there until being applied recently and it is not practical and sometimes it is difficult to get. But rules are always rules. and they might accept different reason at their discretion if you cant provide it.

It is just similar in your case. I think you should really have plan a b c d e in case one doesnt work.

I understand that you might have felt frustrated but i dont think that there's any intention from the government to take your money and it would be wiser for you to think that way as an entrepreneur.

Entrepreneur is always about risk as many on this route have experienced it. A lot of guidelines have more details and sometimes changed a little bit.

I have read all the documents and I believe the latest guidelines are to make it clear from the previous one. There are some that were not there in beginning but it is really debatable.

Your case might have been discussed well here. Why dont you get advice from the solicitors as they might give you a clearer picture in how you can solve this matter.

Perhaps we in this forum can only understand as much as we can. But I understand the feeling that you've had.

Also, please use small letter and not red colour font. I dont think anyone would be keen to read on red!

THank you

[zimba]

Points to conclude this thread

1) You can challenge HO decision in court (JR) but you need to support your case with bullet proof evidence and reasoning. You need to show that your business activity and investments are in line with the original purpose of Tier 1E immigration route and you did not move here just for ILR.

2) Tier 1E route was designed for individuals to pursue genuine entrepreneurship and are expected to inject cash in their businesses, not to merely spend their money to purchase other businesses or invest in a commercial property. The rules were clarified to make this more clear and protect the route from being abused

3) Immigration rules do not prevent you from buying a business, investing in commercial property, ...etc. They simply do not recognise such investment for award of points. You are free to do what you wish with your money. However to satisfy immigration rules, only certain forms of investment will be acceptable.

4) Merely purchasing a commercial property is not entrepreneurship and will not be accepted by any court as such. You need to satisfy the court that such a big purchase was quite necessary. If you invested 95% of your money in a commercial property and left with little money to run your business, you cannot satisfy a court that your intention was to start a genuine business.

5) The nature of your business matters a lot and determines your intentions as genuine entrepreneur. Again why did you invest 200K or so in a commercial property to begin with ?? To enjoy the rent and added value or to start a factory or a workshop ?? What kind of evidence can you provide to show that such a big purchase was necessary for running of your business ??

[samisosa]

Hi rafarox,
I think you understand the point but according to 2012 laws, the section was not applicable. you could buy an existing business and buy property for commercial purpose. I think we should all appeal to HO and take an appropriate action. By the way, are you from Canada? I just heard about a Canadian family who was on Sky news 2 or 3 days ago. I am a Canadian too and packing to leave soon because I don't think AR will be a success.

[rafarox]

Hi rafarox,
I think you understand the point but according to 2012 laws, the section was not applicable. you could buy an existing business and buy property for commercial purpose. I think we should all appeal to HO and take an appropriate action. By the way, are you from Canada? I just heard about a Canadian family who was on Sky news 2 or 3 days ago. I am a Canadian too and packing to leave soon because I don't think AR will be a success.

Dear Samisosa
First apologies for delay reply and all UKVI affected victims really thank full to you for starting this thread also for consideration . Yes for JR with the hope that may be justice will be given.

Initially from 2012 -2013 and then 2013 -2014 no such 245 Dc ii was existed in policy and immigration rule. Please see evidence check 6A also posted on this thread . According to the policy business and criteria should be met with in 6 months, on the other hand how could anyone know before three year that in 2015-16 the new rule will come in the shape of 245Dcii which would define new purpose and meaning of this old route for previous joiners and 2012-2013 14 policy meaning and purpose is only bait for new stage .

If Business premises acquired for own business purpose in 2013-14 tax year and never sold continuous in business usage, as business assets how it can be challenge but illegally force full entry like 245D C ii can only be dealt in court.

Actually blackmailed as migrated with young and teenage children. Their lives are completely disturbed.
Now new stage is design to promote other money minters sectors. If they only need super doper king Kong entrepreneurs to run their economy with 200k each then why didn't they ask that before in 2012 and why accepted and allowed all normal persons investment ( see 2012 policy) and why didn't they design their policy with the requirement of entrepreneur achievers gold medalist solicitors and accountants as one man show. only 1% may joined for other private reasons.

If 200K Investment made in other country specially in 2012 now would have been 300k in 2 years but in UK it converted into loss. Now why we should lie about ILR yes that was also main ingredient along with business and family life . otherwise why we all migrated with family and left and sold assets and move hard earn money for them!!! . also converted from clean clear legal persons family to illegal over stayer without any cogent reason just because one future change in 2015 of law affected and threat your family and can embezzled your money.

There is no law of equality suppose if you are refusing someone with good and valid reason then give equal time frame to go back sell assets or business normally as you given time initially for setup investment so can get his money out from business or assets without any loss because all business and investment was part of contract and invested on your permission/ trust . otherwise it looks pirates are waiting for their already designed plan or to be victim other money minting programs like different type of litigation and finally make you illegal to eat your children food.

Second point as mentioned earlier but did not get reply is about completing legal requirement before it was mentioned 5 times in policy from 2012 to 2014 now two time in current policy for self employed business rule which also leads to buying business premises as a long term commitment to confirm future intention also for GET written in policy.

https://www.gov.uk/renting-buying-business-premises

this is written in policy guidance Registration as self-employed

A24. A person setting up as self-employed must register as such with HMRC within 6 months of
starting up. For more information on the legal requirements see the Business and Self- employed
section of gov.uk. (why instructed to follow )?????

so buying the business premises for own business as self employed sole trader if illegal and 245dc ii can affect then why page 73 of the guidance still require to follow the instruction or to complete the legal requirement of self employed .

completely disagree with the implication of 245Dc ii .

So now only question left if law abiding resident followed the prevailing or committed rule and implemented according to the policy and rule of PBS in letter and spirit also completing the criteria of 6 month , jobs etc as equal points 20 points each then you also need to get investment 20 points therefore if the rule change in future then who will be responsible if you made investment in shape of business expense .
1 Person who is changing the rule affecting other person businesses or 2 the business man who already followed the rule and running his business and invested as was told to do so on arrival or made commitment before .
Zimba 88 and robertholdon both were good and helpful in communication thank you all.

[noajthan]

All this talk of pirates and blackmail and one thing and another is perhaps taking it too emotionally.

I understand members came to this country and invested hard cash and some have evidently misunderstood or been misadvised on what's required.
So you do have skin in the game.

But HO applies the regulations impersonally and dispassionately.
As well as other types of risk (market, currrency, economic, IPR, etc etc) there is clearly legislative, statutory and governance risk present in any regional financial system of the world.

To deal with it and to operate in this environment members need to think with their heads not hearts.
Because, HO is acting completely indifferently in an economic sense.

Finally, whatever may or may not be said on Gov UK website is not 'the law'. And what may apply in a generic business sense may not necessarily apply on this visa route.

A website and even some guidance documents are not the enforced and enforceable law; at the end of the day the relevant legislation itself is the law.
So over-reliance and argument based solely on the strength of a webpage or an internal HO document (intended for caseworkers) may or may not help too much.

The map is not the territory if you will; use guidance by all means but I would caution to remember what it is and what it is not.

[rafarox]

Thankyou noajthan

It feel really good to see knowledgeable comments please also allow me to conclude this thread.

All this talk of pirates and blackmail and one thing and another is perhaps taking it too emotionally.

This is true and apologize+ , human being families are emotional and have right to express their experience what they really feel and can foresee.

I understand members came to this country and invested hard cash and some have evidently misunderstood or been misadvised on what's required.
So you do have skin in the game.

Hard Cash is the only main ingredient which they want to see or the main requirement to come in the country and hard cash is the ongoing life blood of cash holder if he is genuine .hard cash is his children inheritance . spending hard cash in new country is very serious matter . hard cash can only be spent on the pre decided or written contract or according to the define purpose of the business and if someone change the purpose of business or spending after spent or used of hard cash then blood and family life is gone to others hand and then you cannot trust that abettors.

But HO applies the regulations impersonally and dispassionately.
As well as other types of risk (market, currrency, economic, IPR, etc etc) there is clearly legislative, statutory and governance risk present in any regional financial system of the world.

To deal with it and to operate in this environment members need to think with their heads not hearts.
Because, HO is acting completely indifferently in an economic sense.

As spokes person of HO it may be nice ordinary statement on their general scope of business. But we need to show what experience we had and on the basis of all the cash or money ( hard cash). From 2012-13 if you brought 250k according to pre defined purpose, which will already devalued appx 20 %from its original currency in 2016 value and then 10 % inflation each year which means 30 % and all together 50% is the minimum evaporated from original amount and this is fact see GBP . Now if family x 8 come to the new country must have paid fee 1180 x 8 GBP each person which now increased along with three times of fee expenses , photo, parking, waiting, documentation charges etc then include huge travelling expense.

Now after arrival house search , cold weather adjustment , doctors appointments , local travelling , three times cost of insurance , new country cheaters handling and many others etc etc factors which you need to pay cost . then you need to start business in new country ( see 2012 policy ) now according to that expenditure starts . In start you are not expert pay non experience charges and getting experience etc etc .There are other business losses or decision losses which you made cannot be mentioned ie business rates business insurances , trading standard requirements , health and safety observations , pest control issues , other person rubbish ,garbage responsibilities if they illegally throw out side your business premises the feeling you had that time.

It does not stop after one year you need to have driving license then now education expense start with many side lines and all expenses which discussed above are also going on altogether with teen age children's expenses , schooling and then bullying, beloved's and then you may stuck and feel insulted and humiliated then pay for corrected measures to living and working adjustment . Don't forget you also need to complete your business work and documentation along with ongoing time frame and then all of sudden some rule or purpose of your arrival contract is change without your consent and information then if you try to find out is the change affect you then some Mr Jhon say no it will only for new comers .

Then you start again as dishearted person with the thinking that you have spend whole life earning on the trust of some policy / rule designed by pi__ then you could not sleep and get diabetes and other tensions stress . then in the middle you must have some emergencies you also need to address that and finally you prepared for examination and now need to pay accountants , solicitors and again pay lot of money and to HO 1204 GBP X8 plus new thing medical charges 600X 8 medic 1204 GBP X8 plus new thing medical charges 600X 8 medical for 2 year extension etc etc then came to know you are refused for 20 points because the agreement which you agreed now change in 2015 even that cannot be implemented on you but we will implicate and you need to leave country in 14 days get out . How you feel . ??

Then start again for 60 days AR and huge payments for solicitors then tensions and many other factors people told you to stop your business you are now illegal wow?? need to leave in 7 days now you are on the hospital bed and say you trusted the old pir who are still pir looking for your remaining money and this is how their financial system works and then we completely understand their sense of economics.

Finally, whatever may or may not be said on Gov UK website is not 'the law'. And what may apply in a generic business sense may not necessarily apply on this visa route.

yes after all now we understand Govt website trust, their generic business sense and their purpose of this visa route.

A website and even some guidance documents are not the enforced and enforceable law; at the end of the day the relevant legislation itself is the law.
So over-reliance and argument based solely on the strength of a webpage or an internal HO document (intended for caseworkers) may or may not help too much.

They need to write this in the policy when they were selling this policy or route. That they can use illegally any law to refuse you and you need to face expensive litigation on top .

The map is not the territory if you will; use guidance by all means but I would caution to remember what it is and what it is not.

yes that why we are in pir------ world .

Kind Regards

[noajthan]

I see where you are coming from.

You have made some well-made and perfectly understandable human and humane points.

But HO will factor none of those considerations into the equation.
Applicants either take up the visa opportunity or they do not - free choice.
They then either succeed or fail by the acid test of the requirements (including some discretionary elements).

And the fact remains the website and guidance documents are not the law.
The only valid reference point is the legislation (& any subsequent case law).

You can read about the HO approach to the T1E route and a recent analysis of the visa in this report. here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... eneurs.pdf

It makes sobering reading; one could say the writing is on the wall.

By contrast the Tier 1(Entrepreneur) route has a long tail of low quality projects which contribute little or nothing to UK plc. The
MAC suggests a major reform of this route.

...

To improve compliance, there should be better monitoring of business progress during the initial three year period. The decision to extend
might be widened from a consideration of jobs created to also include factors such as turnover or having secured further investment.

We maintain that such reforms will make the route much more selective attracting fewer, higher quality applicants and thus benefit UK residents

[rafarox]

Deat noajthan
Thank you for reply this policy also dated sep 2015.

Therefore finally could you please help to find out any case law on your reference below quote also any court reference about new change of rule implementation on old who join the rote before.

2 let us know according to your experience what normally court advise . if not where we can find one

And the fact remains the website and guidance documents are not the law.

Kind Regards

[noajthan]

Deat noajthan
Thank you for reply this policy also dated sep 2015.

Therefore finally could you please help to find out any case law on your reference below quote also any court reference about new change of rule implementation on old who join the rote before.

2 let us know according to your experience what normally court advise . if not where we can find one

And the fact remains the website and guidance documents are not the law.

Kind Regards

Unless you know a friendly barrister, it's just a case of doing the legwork, suggest start here:
https://tribunalsdecisions.service.gov.uk/utiac