British Citizenship/ Driving without insurance

[jojo351]

hey, after putting up the spreadsheet altogether I feel like to add the full story of my application and a troubling concern that I had since last night....

Eligibility criteria:10 Years + 1 Year ILR
Language criteria : Life in UK + Certificate
Method of application: posted myself
Date of application:28/March/2015
Payment method:Debit Card
Date of receipt by UKBA: 30/March/2015
Date of debit or clearance of fees: 16/April/2015
Date of acknowledgement: 16/April/2015
Date approval received: Waiting
Date of ceremony: Waiting

Dear all, I am holding a thought that has been troubling since I realised it.

There was an gap issue happened in 2007, it turned my ILR application down in 2013 which was initially refused due to such a gap of 89 days. I had solicitor submitted reconsideration based on the ground of that the refusal was unlawful: compounded results of the followings:

back to 2007, HO office posted my application back to the wrong address----this caused my have only a week to lodge a new application which was in time before visa expired.

Then there were a three further documents requests until the it was sorted out. the 89 days above I mentioned is calculated from last visa expiry date to new visa start date.

My Solicitor challenged that the first refusal was unlawful, the gap is within 28days and ask a discretion reconsideration.

The outcome was that ILR being granted. My take is that HO accepted this gap.

Naively I thought after 12 month, application of Naturalisation would be a straightforward case since I have no other concerns of conviction or what so ever. So I submitted my naturalisation application myself and it seems joined queue after received acknowledge letter two month ago.

The thought troubles me is: under the tightened good character requirement, certainly the drama I explained happened in 2007 will show up on the system as an overstay, will it lead to an automatic rejection?

I think HO case work will go through the material that my solicitor provided and can I hold hope towards that a senior case work (very likely to be handed to) will take a look of the case? such like how the ILR was granted and base on what ground it was granted given the fact of that gap?

I now slightly feel regret to not consult it with the same solicitor who was very helpful with the ILR and I am prepare for the worst but hope for the best outcome

Just wondering if anyone had or heard similar cases of naturalisation with previous overstay, although in my case it is relatively short, however, 1 day of overstay in their database will be only reckoned as overstay, I tend to not comfort myself by the length of it.

Would be really loverly to hear some opinions.....on the upside, I didn't get an auto refusal after 73days so far---pessimistically thinking that perhaps my case simply hasn't been viewed just yet.

[SSWSZ]

one of the similar case is of my friend .she came on spouse visa of british citizen in 2007.got ilr in 2011.apply for citizenship in oct 2013 got refusal in dec 2013 due to 15 month overstay on her spouse visa .she was under the impression that they only have to apply for ilr when the life in uk is ready so never thought of extending the visa .

she applied again on 10 may 2015 and hoping for the best as rules are changed in 2014 so cant say anything .plz update us when u receive the reply.

[noajthan]

hey, after putting up the spreadsheet altogether I feel like to add the full story of my application and a troubling concern that I had since last night....

Eligibility criteria:10 Years + 1 Year ILR
Language criteria : Life in UK + Certificate
Method of application: posted myself
Date of application:28/March/2015
Payment method:Debit Card
Date of receipt by UKBA: 30/March/2015
Date of debit or clearance of fees: 16/April/2015
Date of acknowledgement: 16/April/2015
Date approval received: Waiting
Date of ceremony: Waiting

Dear all, I am holding a thought that has been troubling since I realised it.

There was an gap issue happened in 2007, it turned my ILR application down in 2013 which was initially refused due to such a gap of 89 days. I had solicitor submitted reconsideration based on the ground of that the refusal was unlawful: compounded results of the followings:

back to 2007, HO office posted my application back to the wrong address----this caused my have only a week to lodge a new application which was in time before visa expired.

Then there were a three further documents requests until the it was sorted out. the 89 days above I mentioned is calculated from last visa expiry date to new visa start date.

My Solicitor challenged that the first refusal was unlawful, the gap is within 28days and ask a discretion reconsideration.

The outcome was that ILR being granted. My take is that HO accepted this gap.

...

Would be really loverly to hear some opinions.....on the upside, I didn't get an auto refusal after 73days so far---pessimistically thinking that perhaps my case simply hasn't been viewed just yet.

Was there really an 'overstay' ?

this caused my have only a week to lodge a new application which was in time before visa expired

My understanding, based on your summary, is: you filed an application with just a week to spare before your visa expired.

Once the application is in the hands of HO and is being processed I believe you continue on your current visa status until the outcome is decided even if that existing visa expires in the meantime.

If that is a correct understanding of what you said then I don't think that's classed as an overstay.

For example, my wife's leave to remain expired during her application for an extension (a few years ago); this was due to a mix up over forms.

Her FLR visa was near to expiring, we applied a bit late on the wrong form as HO had just updated the forms.
We realised just in time and got the package back from the post office then reapplied just in time on the correct form.
She had no problem, the application was accepted; her FLR visa then expired as HO was processing the application.
She was not contacted about that (or for any other reason) and the new ILR was granted.

In your case the fact HO took their time & followed up with you for more documents doesn't overrule that you lodged the application just in time.

There used to be an explanation about this (current visa status carries on during HO processing time) on the settlement area of UK gov website. If I can find it again I'll post it.

Hope this helps - good luck.

[noajthan]

jojo351
here is the link I was looking for...

fyi

If you make an application before your authorised stay ends, your existing immigration status will continue until your application is decided, even if the decision is not made until after the end of your permitted stay. If your existing visa or other permission to stay here allows you to work, you can continue to do so until your case is decided

See https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ocessed_vi
- ref: Email from: IND Public Enquiries, 31 December 2010 - see section 1) Outstanding Applications

[cs95tdg]

jojo351
here is the link I was looking for...

fyi

If you make an application before your authorised stay ends, your existing immigration status will continue until your application is decided, even if the decision is not made until after the end of your permitted stay. If your existing visa or other permission to stay here allows you to work, you can continue to do so until your case is decided

See https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ocessed_vi
- ref: Email from: IND Public Enquiries, 31 December 2010 - see section 1) Outstanding Applications

And here is the legislation. It's section 3C.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/77/section/3C

[jojo351]

one of the similar case is of my friend .she came on spouse visa of british citizen in 2007.got ilr in 2011.apply for citizenship in oct 2013 got refusal in dec 2013 due to 15 month overstay on her spouse visa .she was under the impression that they only have to apply for ilr when the life in uk is ready so never thought of extending the visa .

she applied again on 10 may 2015 and hoping for the best as rules are changed in 2014 so cant say anything .plz update us when u receive the reply.

Thanks SS for sharing your friend's experience, I will certainly update once reply echoes back.

[jojo351]

Was there really an 'overstay' ?

this caused my have only a week to lodge a new application which was in time before visa expired

My understanding, based on your summary, is: you filed an application with just a week to spare before your visa expired.

Once the application is in the hands of HO and is being processed I believe you continue on your current visa status until the outcome is decided even if that existing visa expires in the meantime.

If that is a correct understanding of what you said then I don't think that's classed as an overstay.

For example, my wife's leave to remain expired during her application for an extension (a few years ago); this was due to a mix up over forms.

Her FLR visa was near to expiring, we applied a bit late on the wrong form as HO had just updated the forms.
We realised just in time and got the package back from the post office then reapplied just in time on the correct form.
She had no problem, the application was accepted; her FLR visa then expired as HO was processing the application.
She was not contacted about that (or for any other reason) and the new ILR was granted.

In your case the fact HO took their time & followed up with you for more documents doesn't overrule that you lodged the application just in time.

There used to be an explanation about this (current visa status carries on during HO processing time) on the settlement area of UK gov website. If I can find it again I'll post it.

Hope this helps - good luck.

Hey, noajthan, according to the refusal letter of HO initially sent to my ILR application, it was considered as over stay. The in-time application made on 28th Sep 2007, and was returned in a week due to that I forgot to tick 'No' for criminal conviction. So I had this ticked a send again, one of the supportive document I attached was an unconditional offer issued by my university supervisor and my acceptance letter to that offer, this was listed on the form "acceptance of of the course". HO replied and asked for an enrolment letter which was never requested, I have the enrollment letter produced by university again and Student visa was granted.

Even in the SAR record, the case worked noted that applicant was not requested to send enrolment letter.

However, this drama becomes the ground of initial refusal of my ILR application in 2013, but solicitor got it sorted by asking discretion.

I didn't involve the solicitor this time which is a mistake when I think about it...Just hope the this time the case worker for Naturalisation application does pick up what was considered in the ILR reconsideration case.

[jojo351]

jojo351
here is the link I was looking for...

fyi

If you make an application before your authorised stay ends, your existing immigration status will continue until your application is decided, even if the decision is not made until after the end of your permitted stay. If your existing visa or other permission to stay here allows you to work, you can continue to do so until your case is decided

See https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ocessed_vi
- ref: Email from: IND Public Enquiries, 31 December 2010 - see section 1) Outstanding Applications

And here is the legislation. It's section 3C.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/77/section/3C

Thank you CS95dtg, it was the fact that HO turned my 2013 ILR turn as they reckoned it as a gap, uncertainty lies at whether after the successful reconsideration, will it become a barrier again in current naturalisation case.

[jojo351]

Key question I think is whether an disregarded overstay caused by an unlawful refusal in the past ten years actually counts as adverse in new good character assessment.

In short, a gap that had caused ILR turned down but successfully disregarded in the past, will it be picked up in Naturalization application again in the future?

[jojo351]

Any senior or experience member in the forum can shed some light on this please?

[cs95tdg]

Key question I think is whether an disregarded overstay caused by an unlawful refusal in the past ten years actually counts as adverse in new good character assessment.

In short, a gap that had caused ILR turned down but successfully disregarded in the past, will it be picked up in Naturalization application again in the future?

I think as you've probably guessed, it's probably one of those instances where you won't know for sure, until the HO come back with a decision. In my opinion, it would depend on how they have recorded that break in lawful stay that youve mentioned. I'd say you can't really generalise, and that there will be cases where the HO applied discretion when granting ILR, but that may not necessarily wipe clean, the applicants overstay/breach when it comes to Good Character for naturalisation. The case below is very different to yours, but you can see how the refusal reason given there
was due to a breach that occurred due to one of the previous decision letters being lost in the post. That case is more complicated as there was previous overstay as well, so you can't really take it as the basis for a clear comparison to your circumstances.

You might want to consider making a SAR to see what they actually have on record for your
immigration history - unless you've already done this. If so, then it will be a matter of waiting to see what they come back with and decide what to do based on the decision. Wish you good luck.

http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... 87578.html

[jojo351]

dear cs95tdg,

You are completely spot-on, I realise that it is the certainty and struggling between chances of decision can go either way makes worried, which is waste of time and not nicest practice with regards to mental well-being.

It is most kindly of you actually spent time on my post and read through my boring time lines. Thanks for that

I didn't request SAR record this time but will have the new request posted tomorrow.To be honest I was too native to request a SAR before I made Naturalisation application 2 month ago.

In the past 7 days I have been trying to find out identical or similar cases that others may have experienced in the forum but I guess most of the cases are unique in some way.

The closest one I have found, not in this forum though, was some received a letter from HO requestioned his illegal stay in the past, I have attached partially his letter.





This letter requested,when he left the UK and during the period without valid leave, financially how applicant maintained himself, whether worked during such period. My take of this is check illegal working as a solid offence. Luckily he did not work during that period at all.

His case time line was:
applied PSW visa in 2008 before visa expiry date 31.OCT 2008
Insufficient fund in bank caused a rejection on 15th Dec 2008 and asked to leave the UK in 28 days.
Applicant left on 8th Jan 2009 as stamped on passport.

He then applied PSW outside of the UK and re-entered the UK on 29th March 2009.

the letter of HO stated that he (well I think it is a 'he'), was in the UK without valid leave between 31/Oct 2008 until 8th Jan 2009 he left.

Regarding his outcome, HO sent the letter above after 6 month and in total 9 month he waited until BC approval letter finally granted.

Quoting his solicitor opinion :
The PSW refusal decision based on not having enough funds back in 2008 is unlawful by the then UKBA in any case. The case of Pankina stated this quite clearly. You could have asked for a review when the Pankina judgement came out, but I think you may cite this case in your reply anyway in addition to that you have complied with the requirement of leaving the UK within 28 days. Basically, they should not have refused you."


Strictly speaking, as long as one has no valid leave to remain, will any number of days before one leaves the UK will be counted as overstay? If so, even one day of overstay will lead to breach of immigration control and violate new Good character requirement Annex D section 8?

I am hoping the best outcome, but as one sees problem objectively, I don't think case worker will miss this and I am preparing to deal with potential response.

[jojo351]

too late to edit my post but at the latter section, I meant for Chapter 18, Annex D, section 9, just to ease the confusion if my comment may cause.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _D_v02.pdf

Other reading materials can be found here if of interest.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... structions


Quoted from annex B to chapter 18 below:

8.8 Under paragraphs 2 and 4 of Schedule 1 to the 1981 Act, there is discretion to disregard breaches of the immigration laws (i.e. unlawful residence) during the qualifying period. Such breaches only involve being here without leave to enter or remain. Other immigration offences, such as breaching a restriction on taking employment and harbouring other immigration offenders, should not be considered under the residence requirement, but under the good character
requirement (see Annex D).

8.9 In most cases, it will be apparent from CID or the passports whether or not an applicant has been here in breach of the immigration laws. Where this is in doubt, any previous files should be obtained and
advice sought, as necessary, from NPT.

8.10 We should normally exercise discretion to disregard a breach of the immigration laws (i.e. a period of unlawful residence) only if there are reasons for the breach which were clearly outside the individual’s control, or the breach was genuinely inadvertent and short. Examples would include circumstances where:

 the breach occurred at a time when the applicant was a minor whose parents failed to obtain or renew their leave, or where the
applicant was a victim of domestic violence whose abusive partner prevented the renewal of leave;
 the breach arose due to the rejection of an "in-time", but incorrectly completed, mandatory application form for leave to remain, provided there is no reason to doubt that the form was submitted in good faith;


Whereas Annex D, section 9 said these:

9.7 Evasion of immigration control
The decision maker will normally refuse an application if within the 10 years preceding the application the person has not been compliant with immigration requirements, including but not limited to having:
a. failed to report
b. failed to comply with any conditions imposed under the Immigration Acts
c. been detected working in the UK without permission

[khaledadda]

too late to edit my post but at the latter section, I meant for Chapter 18, Annex D, section 9, just to ease the confusion if my comment may cause.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _D_v02.pdf

Other reading materials can be found here if of interest.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... structions


Quoted from annex B to chapter 18 below:

8.8 Under paragraphs 2 and 4 of Schedule 1 to the 1981 Act, there is discretion to disregard breaches of the immigration laws (i.e. unlawful residence) during the qualifying period. Such breaches only involve being here without leave to enter or remain. Other immigration offences, such as breaching a restriction on taking employment and harbouring other immigration offenders, should not be considered under the residence requirement, but under the good character
requirement (see Annex D).

8.9 In most cases, it will be apparent from CID or the passports whether or not an applicant has been here in breach of the immigration laws. Where this is in doubt, any previous files should be obtained and
advice sought, as necessary, from NPT.

8.10 We should normally exercise discretion to disregard a breach of the immigration laws (i.e. a period of unlawful residence) only if there are reasons for the breach which were clearly outside the individual’s control, or the breach was genuinely inadvertent and short. Examples would include circumstances where:

 the breach occurred at a time when the applicant was a minor whose parents failed to obtain or renew their leave, or where the
applicant was a victim of domestic violence whose abusive partner prevented the renewal of leave;
 the breach arose due to the rejection of an "in-time", but incorrectly completed, mandatory application form for leave to remain, provided there is no reason to doubt that the form was submitted in good faith;


Whereas Annex D, section 9 said these:

9.7 Evasion of immigration control
The decision maker will normally refuse an application if within the 10 years preceding the application the person has not been compliant with immigration requirements, including but not limited to having:
a. failed to report
b. failed to comply with any conditions imposed under the Immigration Acts
c. been detected working in the UK without permission

Hi jojo351

Thank you for your clarification

Could you please advise on my case
I came to UK on 6 months tourist visa on 2003
Overstayed my visa was supported by my brother met my wife 2005 moved together shortly after applied for permission to get married from home office 2009 was approved got married beginning 2010 left UK voluntary to my home country applied for spouse visa was granted after Appeal to upper tribunal visa was granted July 2012 I came to UK , June 2014 applied for ILR same day service was granted
I haven't applied for nuturalisation yet

Regarding this new rules of good character when can apply?

Many Thanks

[secret.simon]

applied for permission to get married from home office 2009 was approved

What kind of approval was this? Was it a fiancé visa? If it was, it would be 10 years after that, else...

beginning 2010 left UK voluntary to my home country

You can apply 10 years after you left the UK in 2010. Till that time, you were in the UK illegally.

[secret.simon]

Key question I think is whether an disregarded overstay caused by an unlawful refusal in the past ten years actually counts as adverse in new good character assessment.

In short, a gap that had caused ILR turned down but successfully disregarded in the past, will it be picked up in Naturalization application again in the future?

From the details you have provided about your own case, I do not think you are in breach of immigration rules and should not have issues with the good character requirement. Also, you have done quite a bit of reading up on the details of the rules. Good work.

I will answer your question in broad, general terms.

Citizenship and ILR (settlement) are two separate processes, carried out by two separate but related bodies, under two different laws. If the UKV&I make an exception about a defect in your application and grant you ILR inspite of you not completely meeting the rules, it does not follow that the Home Office can, and if they can, will ignore those defects. Even though ILR may be granted, the Home Office would still consider that you are not of good character and can deny the request for citizenship. And as you already have ILR, which give most of the domestic benefits of citizenship, the Home Office will not consider the non-grant of citizenship too harsh.

[khaledadda]

applied for permission to get married from home office 2009 was approved

What kind of approval was this? Was it a fiancé visa? If it was, it would be 10 years after that, else...

beginning 2010 left UK voluntary to my home country

You can apply 10 years after you left the UK in 2010. Till that time, you were in the UK illegally.

Hi secret.simon

Thank you for your reply
The approval I meant COA Form to get married at register office
So the 10 years start from the day I left the UK when I was overstayer ?
Thanks

[kasi]

Hi khaledadda

I applied for my wife ILR on 26th 2014 June as her visa expired on 25th June 2014. I used the same forms which I used on 21st June and got ILR same day but due to her life in UK test was not completed, I had sent her forms later. However, the problem was that the forms which was used just got expired two days ago and was not remain valid anymore. so Home Office returned the forms on Friday 25th July 2014 saying that it's wrong forms although they took the money out on 30th. I then resubmitted the forms on Monday 28th July and in December HO refused due to overstaying her visa. although, our children are born here, and she is been living with me since from 2007 on spouse visa. we have been given no right to appeal so then submitted JR but it was also refused as HO suggested to go for private life 10 year route which we applied and got it. I am not switching from her 10 year route to spouse visa 5 years but it will be 10 years for her to be in the UK in 2017 so I was thinking that can she applied ILR on 2017 based on her 10 years route. She overstayed her visa for only two days and it was a mistake on my part as I submitter old forms. now I have acquired British Nationality, both our children are born here and the mother hasn't got ILR. what advise you will give us, will be highly appreciated.