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Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherlands?

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sergei107
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Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherlands?

Post by sergei107 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:29 am

Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherlands?

my question is about a primary carer of underage EU citizen.

We are the parents and primary carers of our son who has Ireland nationality. And he is 16 years old. Our own nationalities are Russian.
For the best interests of our son and exercising the EU free movement Treaty we would like to move and settle in Netherlands.

I have studied the all the information on "Family member with different nationality" and found that we do not fall in to any category listed.

Can anybody clarify us on following questions:
1. Do we have the right to move and reside in Netherlands on the basis of being the primary carers of an Irish underage citizen?
2. How to make such an application if the EU citizen is under age of 18 and do not have neither work contract or a housing contract ?
3. What supportive documents should we present in such case?
4. If we still have the right for the residence in Netherlands would we have the permission to work ?

Or, may be some other EU countries will be more suitable for that?

Regarding to Ireland, they require the Irish entrance visa which they will issue within 12 moths. And their route for obtaining Irish residence permit would take up to another 12 months. Than is unsuitable for us.

mgb
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by mgb » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:54 pm

sergei107 wrote: 1. Do we have the right to move and reside in Netherlands on the basis of being the primary carers of an Irish underage citizen?
Yes, take a look at the ECJ case Chen C-200/02.
Precondition is enough financial resources and health insurance.
The source of the financial means doesn't matter.
2. How to make such an application if the EU citizen is under age of 18 and do not have neither work contract or a housing contract ?
https://ind.nl/en/other/eu-eea/Pages/Fa ... ality.aspx
Or, may be some other EU countries will be more suitable for that?
It depends on your savings and which language you want to speak in daily life.
Maybe one of the baltic countries or Malta or Cyprus.
If you have a residence permit for a family member of a eu citizen in your hand you can move with that to Ireland and apply there. Precondition for a application is a stay longer than 3 month in the other eu country. It is called Surrinder Singh route.

sergei107
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by sergei107 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:10 pm

mgb wrote:
sergei107 wrote: 1. Do we have the right to move and reside in Netherlands on the basis of being the primary carers of an Irish underage citizen?
Yes, take a look at the ECJ case Chen C-200/02.
Precondition is enough financial resources and health insurance.
The source of the financial means doesn't matter.
.
Thank you.
But, what is it "enough financial resources" ?

Enough for what and for how long?

The main question is about work permit.
If I have work permit I will get a job and provide enough financial resources.
But if I don't I will not.

And about other countries.
It is better if people of the chosen country speak English. But it is not critical.
I worry much more about bureaucracy in different countries.
How long will it take to issue a residence card?
What supportive document should I present ?
Will I get a work permit?

I red in internet somewhere that in Netherlands it is quite complicated, but there are secondary schools teaches in English.
In Belgium to get residence card is much easier ( looks like), but there are no public English schools.
In Cyprus it could take up to 1 year to make a decision on your application. ( again, this is unreliable source)

School problem is a real problem since our son is almost 17 and next year will need to get SCSE exam of some sort.

sergei107
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by sergei107 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:18 pm

mgb wrote:
2. How to make such an application if the EU citizen is under age of 18 and do not have neither work contract or a housing contract ?
https://ind.nl/en/other/eu-eea/Pages/Fa ... ality.aspx


.
Unfortunately, this link does not have such a category as "underage EU citizen and his non-EU parents"
All they have is that EU citizen should support his parent. But in our case, we, the parents are supporting our son.

mgb
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by mgb » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:50 pm

"You are the grandparent, parent, child of 21 or over or grandchild"

The dependency part goes the other way in your case.

mgb
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by mgb » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:04 pm

sergei107 wrote:
But, what is it "enough financial resources" ?
More than to trigger social welfare in the guest country. A rule of thumb is for a year for a start.
The main question is about work permit.
A residence permit for a family member of a eu citizen give the right to work. There is no extra work permit.
In Cyprus it could take up to 1 year to make a decision on your application. ( again, this is unreliable source)
Max is 6 month processing time due to eu law.

sergei107
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by sergei107 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:24 pm

mgb wrote:
The main question is about work permit.
A residence permit for a family member of a eu citizen give the right to work. There is no extra work permit.
Are you sure of it?
Is any proof or practical case?
I saw a picture of the residence card for family member. It has a dedicated field "REMARKS" - WORK PERMITTED.
eea-route-applications/family-member-eu ... l#p1507215

So, I assume it could be with remark - work not permitted.

gokulatti
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by gokulatti » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:14 am

sergei107 wrote:1. Do we have the right to move and reside in Netherlands on the basis of being the primary carers of an Irish underage citizen? Yes, As a parent of a child who is your dependent.
2. How to make such an application if the EU citizen is under age of 18 and do not have neither work contract or a housing contract ? Explained at the end.
3. What supportive documents should we present in such case? Explained at the end.
4. If we still have the right for the residence in Netherlands would we have the permission to wor
Yes.

First of all, If you already have a job in Netherlands or even self employment, things get very easy. If not, You need to show subsistence/funds for a year (expected ) + Insurance for all 3, insurance in Netherlands can be expensive, around 100e per person for a decent one. There are no specified amount for subsistence, in a couples case they expected around 1450e per month (net). The point is you need to satisfy them that you wont be a burden to the state. In your case there are 3 people so do your math!. The whole thing above is called exercising treaty rights. The actual process is simple, call IND and book an appointment anywhere in the first 3 months after you land, once that is set, all 3 need to go in person for the appointment, first your child as an irish will get a sticker in the passport, You and wife as a third country nationals who the child is depending on will have to fill the form called 'verification against EU law' from IND website. Along with the form, you present the documents/proof of exercising treaty rights and others seen in https://ind.nl/en/forms/5005.pdf. Once this is done, your russian passports will also get a sticker which allows you to work until a decision is made on the application. Your stickers and your sons sticker is essentially the same but his has indefinite time while yours has 6 months duration. Within the next 6 months, if everything goes well, you and wife will get a residence card saying "family member of EU national" with remarks " work freely permitted. permission can be withdrawn if public funds are used" and No you do not need a work permit separately. Good Luck!!

sergei107
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by sergei107 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:05 am

Thank you, gokulatti .

Do you know anything about other countries regarding our situation?
If we go to Malta or Syprus or other English speaking country.

gokulatti
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by gokulatti » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:49 pm

The process is similar every where in EU. The only difference is the higher subsistence standard, northern>western>southern>eastern. The process should be very much identical.

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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by sergei107 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:33 pm

gokulatti wrote:The process is similar every where in EU. The only difference is the higher subsistence standard, northern>western>southern>eastern. The process should be very much identical.
Today I went to Bulgaria immigration office to tolk with the of Bourgas department ( her working hours : Thursday from 14-00 to 16-00)

She said that I have no rights to reside on the basis being the carer of Irish child. I can not even file in the application. Because they could approve only if the EU citizen is older 18, has social security number ( national insurance of some kind), has enough money ( 50 euro per day) and hold me as his dependent.

Basically, I can take her decision to court, but I don't have the written refusal and do not speak Bulgarian good enough and do not have time and money for that.

My point is that it could be refusal in straight application for residence. It depends on country.

What do you think about my chances to get approval in Netherlends, belgium, malta, cyprus.

gokulatti
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by gokulatti » Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:08 pm

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 2002CJ0200

The right of residence of a person in Mrs Chen’s situation
42
Article 1(2)(b) of Directive 90/364, which guarantees ‘dependent’ relatives in the ascending line of the holder of the right of residence the right to install themselves with the holder of the right of residence, regardless of their nationality, cannot confer a right of residence on a national of a non-member country in Mrs Chen’s situation either by reason of the emotional bonds between mother and child or on the ground that the mother’s right to enter and reside in the United Kingdom is dependent on her child’s right of residence.
43
According to the case-law of the Court, the status of ‘dependent’ member of the family of a holder of a right of residence is the result of a factual situation characterised by the fact that material support for the family member is provided by the holder of the right of residence (see, to that effect, in relation to Article 10 of Regulation No 1612/68, Case 316/85 Lebon [1987] ECR 2811, paragraphs 20 to 22).
44
In circumstances such as those of the main proceedings, the position is exactly the opposite in that the holder of the right of residence is dependent on the national of a non-member country who is her carer and wishes to accompany her. In those circumstances, Mrs Chen cannot claim to be a ‘dependent’ relative of Catherine in the ascending line within the meaning of Directive 90/364 with a view to having the benefit of a right of residence in the United Kingdom.
45
On the other hand, a refusal to allow the parent, whether a national of a Member State or a national of a non-member country, who is the carer of a child to whom Article 18 EC and Directive 90/364 grant a right of residence, to reside with that child in the host Member State would deprive the child’s right of residence of any useful effect. It is clear that enjoyment by a young child of a right of residence necessarily implies that the child is entitled to be accompanied by the person who is his or her primary carer and accordingly that the carer must be in a position to reside with the child in the host Member State for the duration of such residence (see, mutatis mutandis, in relation to Article 12 of Regulation No 1612/68, Baumbast and R, paragraphs 71 to 75).
46
For that reason alone, where, as in the main proceedings, Article 18 EC and Directive 90/364 grant a right to reside for an indefinite period in the host Member State to a young minor who is a national of another Member State, those same provisions allow a parent who is that minor’s primary carer to reside with the child in the host Member State.
47
The answer to be given to the national court must therefore be that, in circumstances like those of the main proceedings, Article 18 EC and Directive 90/364 confer on a young minor who is a national of a Member State, is covered by appropriate sickness insurance and is in the care of a parent who is a third-country national having sufficient resources for that minor not to become a burden on the public finances of the host Member State, a right to reside for an indefinite period in that State. In such circumstances, those same provisions allow a parent who is that minor’s primary carer to reside with the child in the host Member State.

sergei107
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by sergei107 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:03 pm

thank you, gokulatti.
I will print this out and It will be the first document that immigration officer in Netherlands will see.

gokulatti
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by gokulatti » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:10 pm

Good luck. And for this to work, you all need to go with your child to the IND and proof of subsistence (you need appointment for this). your first priority should be to tell them strongly to accept your application, your child also needs to register to obtain a sticker in his/her passport and this sticker is the proof of exercising treaty rights as a self sufficient person provided by the carer.

gokulatti
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by gokulatti » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:16 pm

Would also like to point out that "Directive 90/364" was repealed by "Directive 2004/38" http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 123:en:PDF - refer to the first page.

sergei107
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by sergei107 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:13 pm

just small question.
Are the both parents entitled for the residence or just only one of them ?

What if the parents are officially divorced? But I always can say that we are the unmarried partners.

gokulatti
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by gokulatti » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:52 pm

I believe it depends if the other parent also has custody of the child. Unmarried partners are secondary beneficiaries and the host member state are only required to "facilitate" entry and residence and the right of residence is not directly granted to them. I am feeling that you are at a point where you need a professional advice from an immigration lawyer.

sergei107
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by sergei107 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:42 am

Do you know what supportive document could the Netherlands authorities ask from us?
I mean we have child's birth certificate with our names as parents in it . And it is in English. we have his Irish passport.
Will they want to ask for the parent's marriage certificate? And it should be translated in English or dutch and legalized?
Will the take into account any written statements from the child, who is 16 years old?

What happen if the parent were never officially married?

gokulatti
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by gokulatti » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:44 am

The answer to be given to the national court must therefore be that, in circumstances like those of the main proceedings, Article 18 EC and Directive 90/364 confer on a young minor who is a national of a Member State, is covered by appropriate sickness insurance and is in the care of a parent who is a third-country national having sufficient resources for that minor not to become a burden on the public finances of the host Member State, a right to reside for an indefinite period in that State. In such circumstances, those same provisions allow a parent who is that minor’s primary carer to reside with the child in the host Member State. Parenthood has nothing to do with marriage.
https://ind.nl/en/forms/5005.pdf all the neccessary document list are in there and this application is for third country nationals. When you arrive there at the IND, they will first hand out a form for your EU child to fill in order to be given a sticker in his passport (which is not required if there is no family immigration)
After that you need to submit this above application form. even if one of the parent gets residence based on the carer of the child, this parent SHALL bestow the right to residence to their "unmarried partners" if it can be proved that they are "unmarried partners", see unmarried partners in the above form as well. in essence, two copies of the application form 1. for the carer 2. the unmarried partner.

you are considered as "unmarried partner" if 1. you have a child together or 2. living in the same household for at least 6 months

Please get all the documents apostilled from the respective government (Not just for IND but also needed for Municipality registration (BRP)). They accept English documents. It is always better to call up IND and confirm all the documents as well as book an appointment. If you are applying for "unmarried partner" at the same time, You also need to bring in divorce decree along with child custody decree apostilled + civil status document from place of previous residence. I know this because I had done this myself for "unmarried partners" in our case as well.

Note: Most of the EU originated documents do not need to be apostilled when used within the EU. Always better to confirm that with the IND beforehand.

sergei107
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by sergei107 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:25 pm

Thank you again, gokulatti
I will not claim the residence on the base of being unmarried partner to the one having the right to reside in NL.
We are planing to get two residence permits for both parents on the base of being the primary carers for the child. I believe they are allowed to be two primary carers for the child. Than there is a question:
Will the authorities inquire our marriage status ? and will they require our marriage certificate?
Because if they require our birth certificate we can not provide it.

My story is the following.
Me and my former wife (russians) got married in 2000. later in 2000 our son was born in Ireland and got Irish citizenship. After that we moved to USA for 4 years and after that we returned back to Russia. After 5 happy years and 3 unhappy ones we got divorced. By the divorce court decision the child stays in custody of his mother.
That is our situation for today.
Now we (our son, me and my former wife) want to move to Netherlands. If needed, we can rent an apartment together and have common household. I am the source of all finance meanings . I can produce the bank statement in my name for some 30000 euros.

If I tell the authorities all the truth mention above, will I be considered to be a primary carer for the child ?

If we tell only half-truth, not saying about divorce thing. Will they require our marriage certificate?

gokulatti
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by gokulatti » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:25 pm

after your divorce, are you still separated and estranged? Do you have visitation rights to the child given by a court decree. after the divorce who was supporting the child until now and is this what the mother wants as well?.

sergei107
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by sergei107 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:02 pm

gokulatti wrote:after your divorce, are you still separated and estranged? Do you have visitation rights to the child given by a court decree. after the divorce who was supporting the child until now and is this what the mother wants as well?.
After divorce we live separately. The court have not set the visitation rights. I says only that the child stays with his mother. She is supporting him mostly. I pay alimony to her. but don't have any proof of that for last 2 or 3 years. Our son lives sometimes with me, sometimes with her. But he is registered in my property. I think I can get official document for that.
His mother wants to move to Netherlands as well. And she is ready to tolerate my presence. I believe.

The main point is that we both want our son to study in Netherlands university in 1 or 2 years. So it is better for him that he completes the local school and has place to live when going to the the university. And for that we need a residence and work there as well.

His mother and I understand this well and ready to tolerate some inconvenience that can arise between us. At least , I am ready.

gokulatti
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by gokulatti » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:14 pm

I understand completely. The facts are, the child has right to reside in any member state. The primary carer, shall have the right to stay with the child as well according to chen ruling. The real question is who will be the primary carer, I believe it is you and its also your child. Now the mother shall also have right to reside as she has the custody of the child. Now, under no circumstance withheld information from the authorities. You don't have to tell them everything but if asked withholding information can constitute to an offence. I am by no means an immigration professional. If you feel like asking a professional help you should. because any mistake in this process certainly causes months if not years to rectify.

sergei107
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by sergei107 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:52 pm

thank you , gokulatti
You are very inspiring!

gokulatti
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Re: Can Irish child with his non-EU parents move to Netherla

Post by gokulatti » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:11 pm

Thank you, hope you get all sorted and good luck :)

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